US Elections 2008: Debate the Issues

Virtual Chatot said:

Well he has gone as far as saying he wants to spread the wealth around, if that's not borderline socialism, I don't know what is.

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And doesn't John McCain want to do the same thing? Increase taxes for those who use Employer provided Health Care and give a $5000 tax benefit to those who purchase their own Health Care. Sounds like taking from one group of people and giving to another if you ask me.

Aurafire said:

If I'm confusing you, then let me set the record straight. I believe most of the news media is liberally biased. I believe that Fox News doesn't try to put spin on what they report, thus making them look more conservative then they actually are which is why people who have been influenced by other networks have a problem with them. Beyond all my dressed up words and such, that is what I truly believe. Take it or leave it. I'm not trying to put words in peoples mouths, I'm just expressing my opinion.

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You cannot seriously tell me that shows like Hannity & Colmes and the O'Reilly Factor are not severely slanted to the right.

Otter Mii-kun said:

On the issues Netto Azure brought up, here's where I stand:
Abortion
I'm completely torn on the abortion issue. This is not an issue for federal government intrusion let alone funding. I support completely pulling all federal funding for abortion, including defunding Planned Parenthood.

Race
I oppose affirmative action programs, which require preferential treatment of certain "minority groups" for college admissions, employment, apprenticeship tryouts and considerations, and the like.
If the government really wanted "equal rights and opportunity", they wouldn't be imposing affirmative discrimination mandates. If people like Jennifer Gratz are supposed to benefit from affirmative discrimination, why was she victimized by it?

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The problem with these stances, in my opinion, is that you seem to be hoping to solve these problems by pretending they don't exist. Like, if you don't force racist business owners to hire minorities I don't think that's gonna help stop their racism. I think it would have the opposite effect. Affirmative action programs aren't about saying "Hey you're an inferior race so we'll cut you some slack" it's saying "Ok look, we'll admit the world is imperfect and doesn't work solely on merit so we'll cut you some slack". It's obviously not without its flaws, but I'd say it's a more fair compromise. Also, I don't think women who really want abortions and are denied them are going to say "Welp I guess I'll just throw my life away on this kid then, no biggie."

Otter Mii-kun said:

According to Congressman Ron Paul, in his presidential campaign, he stated that amnesty would be "rewarding a lot of people for breaking our laws".

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Ron Paul is the biggest psuedo-intellectual lunatic ever. I wouldn't advise listening to a word he says. It's cool that he wants us out of Iraq but a broken clock is still right twice a day. Everything else he says is still utterly batshit insane.

Virtual Chatot said:

Well he has gone as far as saying he wants to spread the wealth around, if that's not borderline socialism, I don't know what is.

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Yeah, I know, right? A slightly more socialist-leaning America? That'd be terrible, man. I mean, just look at Canada. What a grotesque hellhole that place is, am I right?

Initial Replies: I'll continue tomorrow (Still needs to do teh Healthcare rant =/)

Hi Otter Mii-Kun Nice to see someone Up the Political spectrum (Libertarian=Less Government) since we only see Left, Center, and Right here.

Media: Heh, I'm just happy we get news and keep up with the Current Events. NPR, PBS, and the BBC is the ones I prefer.

Obama is not a socialist, just because he wants a social democracy like our Western Allies that does not mean that Conservative America (USA in General...) should shun him. Seriously once we start bossing around our allies it makes us look like a bully to the world. A majority of the masses are just being spoonfed that we are a bunch of "Imperialists" =/

Sorry haves to do ze HW now =/

True Justice said:

At our school debate today, one of the Democratic supporters commented saying that Abraham Lincoln was only a state legislator before he became President of the United States

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While it is true that he was very inexperienced at the time. The election of 1860 makes the election of 2000 seem calm. It was four way race between Abraham Lincoln (Republican), Stephen A. Douglas (Northern Democratic), John C. Breckinridge (southern Democratic), and John Bell (Constitutional Union). The chart below shows the precentage of vote Lincoln won in the Electoral Collage and popular vote.

I mean, I think Lincoln shows that experience isn't all it's cracked up to be. Herbert Hoover was very experienced indeed...oops! I agree that it's better to have than not to have it, but it's incredibly overblown.

Also, let's be serious here. McCain cannot use experience against Obama given some of his health problems and being 72 years of age with Sarah Palin as his successor. She has no more experience than Obama. I don't want to hear "no Palin was a governor blah blah blah." Not important. She doesn't understand the key issues - even the McCain campaign itself admitted that. If McCain really put "country first," Palin would not have been his VP choice...unless you can say with 100%confidence that she is more qualified to be president of the United States of America than Barack Obama.

As far as that electoral map of 1860 goes...I don't see its relevance, especially since the Southern states were very much against having a Republican in the White House.

The media is more than likely more liberal than conservative, but FOX News is essentially McCain's own news network with O'Reilly and the conservative gang over there. There are news networks that lean both ways, so in a sense I fell it has been overblown. But you can't seriously say that FOX News is true to their "Fair and Balanced" claim...I mean Jon Stewart shows examples of it all the time and that's just a comedic point of view (though obviously pro-Obama).

I have to agree with those who said that a little socialism isn't really all that bad. The example Allstories gave with Canada I think about proves my point.

4th Gen Matt, you do realize that you just said that you're saying Obama's race is helping him, right? Since when was race helping Obama in a country where racism is far from being gone?

In case you missed my stance from a few pages back, I really don't care who's in office as long as it isn't Sarah Palin. I don't think either candidate has a good enough plan to fix the economy to tell you the truth. I just generally agree with Obama on the other issues (like offshore drilling) more.

I just wish both campaigns would stop using deceiving and misleading words and for that matter, advertisements. I live in the granddaddy of all swing states, Ohio, and the ads from both sides disgust me. It's about time they are honest and let the American people vote based on facts and not this deceptive junk. Of course it will probably never happen but one can dream...

Oh well...Thank You

Thank you for those who contributed to this thread. It has been my most successful one thus far. I respect your opinions now, you know mines...No hard feelings okay? No offense if I hurt your feelings, I apologize to those who feel hurt. I'll continue contributing but I believe we have said what we could say...You guys are very nice and I admire you for defending your positions. Thank you PC and Administrators for giving me the Opportunity to do this. Even without a blog I was able to keep a record of my opinions in this Historic Election and Moment in our Worlds history. Remember to Vote on November 4, 2008 (or early Vote)

May the American People choose wisely, and God help us all in the problems ahead in our World. "We are all in the same Boat no matter our Political disposition." ^_^

(Oh well the Healthcare thing: Um just read this, It's way better than what I can say: 18 Ideas to Reform Health Care Now! from the Reader's Digest)

For after Election Day coverage: US Elections 2008: The Results, Voting Experience and Consequences

OBAMA!
I'm going to go back to America (at last) if they win. If it's McCain and that Palin skank, then I'm staying here in Canada.

Sarah Palin pranked by Montreal radio station:

https://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g6h1fK1yrnh6Tqp-SAGxAmFgDf1QD946GVF01
Transcript

When Audette refers to Canadian singer Steph Carse as Canada's prime minister, Palin replies: "Well, he's doing fine and yeah, when you come into a position underestimated it gives you an opportunity to prove the pundits and the critics wrong. You work that much harder." Canada's prime minister is Stephen Harper.

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^ This chick might become leader of the free world. Just sayin'.

LOL =D

Allstories said:

Sarah Palin pranked by Montreal radio station:

https://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g6h1fK1yrnh6Tqp-SAGxAmFgDf1QD946GVF01
Transcript

^ This chick might become leader of the free world. Just sayin'.

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I've heard about that in the news "Palin's been Punked" =P But yeah the fact that you can ACTUALLY TALK to a Vice-Presidential Nominee without being checked upon is quite surprising.
Has anybody noticed that in this election BOTH VP Candidates make a lot of funny gaffs?

Netto Azure said:

I've heard about that in the news "Palin's been Punked" =P But yeah the fact that you can ACTUALLY TALK to a Vice-Presidential Nominee without being checked upon is quite surprising.
Has anybody noticed that in this election BOTH VP Candidates make a lot of funny gaffs?

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Yes, I noticed although I think Sen. Biden's are more damaging then Gov. Palin's.

Practically everything that comes out of Palin's mouth that hasn't been rehearsed to death comes off as an enormous gaffe. She is pretty much the laughing stock of practically every developed country on earth, if you haven't noticed. I don't mean to say that Biden hasn't made a lot of blunders as well, but Palin is pretty much the reigning champion at making ignorant statements.

Allstories said:

Palin is pretty much the reigning champion at making ignorant statements.

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There's a certain man ruining running a certain country that could give her a run for her money, I think.

I haven't seen much of Biden's mess ups, but I'll be fair and say that's probably because Palin is such a laughing stock that Biden doesn't get much air time.

I wouldn't even say Bush is as stupid as Palin. I mean, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm willing to bet he would have at least had an idea who the prime minister of Canada is or SOMETHING.

Prime Minister of Canada: Stephen Harper. Canadian Conservatives FTW! XD *Shot* Seriously they need a Majority Government if they are to address the Economic Crisis Properly with that Budget Surplus. :P

Anti Pop Culture Warrior said:

The media is more than likely more liberal than conservative, but FOX News is essentially McCain's own news network with O'Reilly and the conservative gang over there. There are news networks that lean both ways, so in a sense I fell it has been overblown. But you can't seriously say that FOX News is true to their "Fair and Balanced" claim...I mean Jon Stewart shows examples of it all the time and that's just a comedic point of view (though obviously pro-Obama).

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No network is fair and balanced. And I think FOX is only supporting McCain now because if they don't he's probably going to lose. They didn't like him at first. NBC and CNN are just as a biased - although on the left.

But, then it again...it's all relative to who specifically you're watching. Taking CNN as an example, I quite like Lou Dobbs but Campbell Brown doesn't try to hide her bias in the slightest. It doesn't have to be as blatant as FOX does it, but there's bias in the way questions are formed. "What's your opinion on xyz" is much better than "Do you disagree with the democrats that..." because that implies that the democrats are correct to begin with. Actual news broadcast are fine for the most part on all networks. It's when you move into the talking heads who want to analysis everything you just heard.

I watch a bunch of stuff. Both Canadian and American, be it actual journalists, anchors, pundits, satirists, whatever. I tend to watch...

The Agenda with Steve Paikin
- TVOntario or TVO is a publically-funded educational channel here in Ontario. This shows basically has a panel of educated guests (authors, professors, political figures, what have you) discussing a topic - be it Canadian or American. Sometimes there's one and one interviews and sometimes the show takes place on a university campus where students can attend and ask question to the panel.
The Michael Coren Show
-Similar to the The Agenda. In fact they're on at the same time. XD Pretty much the same concept, only the panels tend to reuse the same people (of many varied political backgrounds). It's on the Crossroads Television System or CTS which a faith-focused channel here in Canada. The show itself doesn't focus on religion or lean to the right, but I guess the obligation they have by being on that channel is that once a week they have a panel to discuss topics of faith, but the panel consists of several religions and lack thereof.
The Daily Show with Jon Stewart and The Colbert Report
- I think you're all familiar with both of these. Sure it's not a reliable source of information, but sometimes you need to look at things through satire.
Lou Dobbs Tonight
- He treats everything like its the end of the world XD But, I like that he's "independent"
The O'Reilly Factor
- Ugh. I watch this very rarely. Hardly ever. Only if there's a big guest on for an interview, because even though he is so clearly biased he is quite hard on both parties during interviews.
Real Time with Bill Maher
- This would be if the first two shows I mentioned merged with John Stewart. XD Discussion panels again.

Well to be serious I still wonder how I find the time to be informed on the issues. We don't have cable so I heavily rely on Public Broadcasting, Publications, and the Internet. Which might be good since not having Cartoon Network to distract me, allows me to spend more time on the issues. I didn't even know about the concept of Public Broadcasting until I came here to the USA about 4 years ago. =/

Allstories said:

Ron Paul is the biggest psuedo-intellectual lunatic ever. I wouldn't advise listening to a word he says. It's cool that he wants us out of Iraq but a broken clock is still right twice a day. Everything else he says is still utterly batshit insane.

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So you'd rather have an America that continues to shred its own constitution, fighting undeclared wars, continued nation building, spies on their people, and have no freedom of speech because of the very real martial law that exists in America today? Your opinion buddy.

I don't agree with a lot of what Ron Paul represents either, but he's a heck'va lot better of a candidate than either McCain/Obama; unlike those two flip-floppers however, his positives actually out weight the negatives.

Netto Azure said:

Obama is not a socialist, just because he wants a social democracy like our Western Allies that does not mean that Conservative America (USA in General...) should shun him. Seriously once we start bossing around our allies it makes us look like a bully to the world. A majority of the masses are just being spoonfed that we are a bunch of "Imperialists" =/

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Nah, he's a socialist because he appointed Zbigniew Brzezinski as his foreign adviser. Ever read his book "The Grand Chessboard"? Interesting stuff if I do say so myself.

I noticed everyone is posting videos, here is an interesting one I dug up of George Carlin before he died, doing his standup education comedy (WARNING MATURE LANGUAGE PEOPLE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k29LGHV7J7s
I love his finishing quote, "Because the owners of this country know the truth, it's called the American dream; cuz' you have to be asleep to believe it."

In the final twenty-four hours of the campaign, two damaging statements from Sen. Obama have come to light.

The first is an audio from an interview he did in January 2008 for the San Francisco Gate where he basicly states he plans to bankrupt the coal industry.


The second an interview he did back in 2003 where he defined the middle class as a person making between fifty and seventy thousand dollars per year.

Keitaro said:

I don't agree with a lot of what Ron Paul represents either, but he's a heck'va lot better of a candidate than either McCain/Obama; unlike those two flip-floppers however, his positives actually out weight the negatives.

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Like how? He's racist, homophobic, wants to put a country with a massive global economy on the freaking gold standard, take back the panama canal, pull us out of the UN, he wants to privatize EVERYTHING, to destroy public education, to not be involved in foreign affairs to the point of believing that America pretty much shouldn't do anything ever, to eliminate social security, eliminate minimum wage, and pretty much in general let big businesses do whatever the hell they want in the name of the free market. He's a libertarian scumbag, and his positions would destroy the country if they were implemented. What does he want to do that redeems him on these positions at all?

Red1530 said:

The second an interview he did back in 2003 where he defined the middle class as a person making between fifty and seventy thousand dollars per year.

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I don't really understand your point. It doesn't sound like he was giving a definite range, it sounded like he was just listing figures.

Allstories said:

Like how? He's racist, homophobic, wants to put a country with a massive global economy on the freaking gold standard, take back the panama canal, pull us out of the UN, he wants to privatize EVERYTHING, to destroy public education, to not be involved in foreign affairs to the point of believing that America pretty much shouldn't do anything ever, to eliminate social security, eliminate minimum wage, and pretty much in general let big businesses do whatever the hell they want in the name of the free market. He's a libertarian scumbag, and his positions would destroy the country if they were implemented. What does he want to do that redeems him on these positions at all?

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Why do people here keep calling him a racist? Only thing remotely based on him being a racist was something that was published that he himself didn't write; the media had to dig really deep to find that because they couldn't find any other dirt on him, unlike those neo-con opponents of his.

I can see where your coming from when it comes to him eliminating a lot of stuff, I agree with you on that aside from maybe getting rid of the FED. Speaking of which though, his reason for doing such drastic things would be to help pay off that 9 trillion + I believe the time I checked, debt to China that no one here likes to talk about since it is cutting back the spending, which is why he wants to end the war. Like seriously, since when has America been able to afford a war? The American dollar is going to collapse and the Gold Standard is there to give it life since the American dollar is dying like he predicted, caused from all of the free credit being given out and of course the spending, spending, spending.

What makes him better than the other two? He won't bomb the innocent people of Iran for one. He won't increase the national debt that is bankrupting America like the other two WILL do. His plans are meant for long time consistency to dig America out of the whole knowing full well it won't be easy, rather than support that ridiculous bailout bill. Then he's against the NAU, a draft, big brother system to spy on you, RFID tags, regulating the internet, he's also not a corporate sellout or part of the cfr, and all of that other stuff. I'm pretty much tired of blahbing now because it is my bedtime, lol.

In closing, I don't support in voting for Ron Paul (not that I can being Canadian XD), eligible anymore I believe. All I'm saying is he is far superior of a candidate for the people than the other two who are more of the same; considering he is one of the few that is fighting for the constitution that Americans don't seem to be too much aware of, or here at least.

Also scares me seeing Obama choosing Hitler's Victory Column for one of his speeches in Germany among other things I'm too tired to blahb about. And being fair here since I don't like either, McCain? Do I really need to quote him after watching all of the debates?... yeah here at PC? I think I do...
"You know that old Beach Boys song, Bomb Iran? Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran."
"Make it a hundred...That would be fine with me."
"My fellow prisoners"

I'll check back tomorrow, gotta goto bed had fun debating, good to talk about real issues. :P