US Elections 2008: Debate the Issues

[Netto Azure]

But hey, more power to him if he can simultaneously raise taxes AND create jobs, provide the country with free healthcare AND keep spending money and get us energy independent in 10 years WITHOUT tapping into every oil reserve we have. Somehow, I'm sensing epic fail. Anyone else?

Yeah, Obama's probably going to win the election. I'm not holding out much more hope for McCain. But it's going to be 4 years of hell. We'll just have to suffer through and wait for someone competent to run against him in 2012.

Rant = Complete.

Heh...OMG Aura you're too...."uptight" don't make decisions until he's there.....

 

[Midnight Beat]

I promised myself I wouldn't post here, but I've just gotta say this, That debate was a total JOKE. Both candidates were completely immature. "He did this", "He did that", "He said this", "He said that". My ten year old brother is more mature than both of them....combined. And what sucks is that those are our only choices. Neither of these politicians are ready to lead with the current state of this country. Ten years ago, they both would of be viable candidates, but not now, we need someone who really knows what they're doing.

The fact is that America has a rough four years ahead of them.

 

[Allstories]

He's also going to end tax cuts for businesses that ship jobs over-seas. Well that's all fine and dandy, but why do you think those businesses ship the jobs in the first place? Cheaper labor. Asking a company to not ship jobs is like asking them to not take free money. I'd do the exact same thing if it cut costs. Meanwhile, Obama will end their tax cuts. Does anyone know what those businesses are going to do when they're paying over 50% of their income to the government? They're going to cut jobs. It's common sense, really...but for some reason people just don't want to step back and think for ONE SECOND.

I'm not sure I follow. If a company is sending jobs overseas, then haven't they effectively removed the jobs already? Why should we reward this? Obama's plan is to give tax cuts to companies that create new jobs. So basically, he's rewarding the companies that stimulate our economy and help the people in it instead of the ones that are leaving them to die in the gutter. Why is this wrong?

 

[Midnight Beat]

I'm not sure I follow. If a company is sending jobs overseas, then haven't they effectively removed the jobs already? Why should we reward this? Obama's plan is to give tax cuts to companies that create new jobs. So basically, he's rewarding the companies that stimulate our economy and help the people in it instead of the ones that are leaving them to die in the gutter. Why is this wrong?

Obama's plan is to cut taxes for the middle class. And yes, that does sound like a good idea if you take it at face value. By cutting taxes for the middle class you are only implementing a temporary solution. Yes they wont have to pay as high taxes, but they still wont have jobs. By cutting taxes for the bigger companies, it gives them room to bring jobs back to the US, therefore allowing the middle class to repair their income and pay their taxes as is.

 

[Aurafire]

I'm not sure I follow. If a company is sending jobs overseas, then haven't they effectively removed the jobs already? Why should we reward this? Obama's plan is to give tax cuts to companies that create new jobs. So basically, he's rewarding the companies that stimulate our economy and help the people in it instead of the ones that are leaving them to die in the gutter. Why is this wrong?

It's wrong because even though those companies are shipping jobs over-seas, they still employ a great deal of Americans. The economy is already crap, so they do what they have to to cut costs. I understand that this means less jobs here at home, but raising their taxes aren't going to do anything besides make it worse. It's a give and take situation, because sure, Obama is going to reward companies that are creating jobs here, but tax the crap out of those that have shipped jobs over-seas but still employ millions of Americans, thus forcing those companies to cut jobs. Why would you raise taxes on anyone during a situation like this?

 

[Red1530]

I found the third debate to be the best of the three. Senator McCain finally pointed out that Senator Obama's tax plan will hurt business. According to Keynesian economics, in times of recession you lower taxes for all people. Not just some people, but all people. According to some polls, the race is tightening up again.

 

[Netto Azure]

HellCare

Eh...I know I talk too much about Healthcare Reform here, but with the economy and deficit as it is both candidates will be hard pressed to actually implement their healthcare plans (Finding sources for money)...Also China is closing down factories due to the lack of demand...

A video about healthcare made in 2000:

I can't help but laugh at the humor but also cry and be depressed at the same time towards the truth of it.
Yes, you guys shout "Socialized Medicine" but how can we give an American's Fundamental Right to Live to companies whose first allegiance is to stockholders and for profit? Make it more competitive? yeah we could apply that towards material things but not human beings. I might seem like a one-issue supporter to keep on pressing for UHC, yes I can form opinions on other to important issues, but a person can only take so much of a burden and attention on the world's vast array of problems. So I chose UHC as a topic I should focus on. Sorry if I appear as a single-issue supporter...:D

Edit: Is that picture on the top of the page real? I've seen on other screenshot from a different angle and I'm wondering is it Photoshopped?
I just don't have the time to watch the beginning of the debates again due to RL. I'm already hard pressed for Internet time as it is...

 

[Red1530]

Edit: Is that picture on the top of the page real? I've seen on other screenshot from a different angle and I'm wondering is it Photoshopped?

It is Photoshopped. I have to disagree with when it comes to health care. Health care is a responsibility, not a right. Currently in the United States the system is skewed to an employer-based health care system. John McCain proposal would try and level the playing field to make buying your health insurace not through your employer an atractive option.

Also the Supreme Court tossed out the Ohio Republican Party lawsuit to force the Ohio Seceretary of State to turn over information to county Board of Elections that could show regesteration irreguaraties. I can't belive I am typing this but I think that the United States is going to need international observers to make sure the election is fair.

 

[Allstories]

It is Photoshopped.

Haha, it's actually not Photoshopped. He's just turning around funny. It looks bizarre as a still frame but it's perfectly clear as to what he's doing when viewed in context.

Health care is a responsibility, not a right.

A responsibility to not be born poor and/or predisposed to a certain illness? Not to mention, there are times when you might feel ill and it might be serious, but then again it could just be nothing and if that's the case you'd stand to lose a significant amount of money. Should people be forced to take expensive gambles with their lives like that when they could just go in for free and prevent problems before they become serious?

 

[Aurafire]

A responsibility to not be born poor and/or predisposed to a certain illness? Not to mention, there are times when you might feel ill and it might be serious, but then again it could just be nothing and if that's the case you'd stand to lose a significant amount of money. Should people be forced to take expensive gambles with their lives like that when they could just go in for free and prevent problems before they become serious?

You act like every poor person in this country is poor because they some how drew the short straw in life and now the government needs to repay them for their bad luck. Is it not a responsibility to work hard, make a decent living and thusly keep your family safe? A little work goes a long way in America, and yet millions and millions of people choose to live off of government welfare programs. I can't hardly blame them: Why work when the government is paying all your bills and giving you food. Not to mention: The government already provides healthcare to 27% of those who have it.

So by all means. Lets take care of those who are already living off of tax-payer money even more by giving them free healthcare. Paid for by...you guessed it: tax-payers. Call me cold-hearted, but I draw the line when there are people in this country who barely have to lift a finger and all their needs are met. Is it regrettable that there are some people who can't afford healthcare, even if they are working hard? Of course it is. But why, may I ask, should the government now make it the small business owner's and large corporation's problem? Why is it a fundamental right to have something that you might not even deserve or even want to work for?

Some of those below the poverty line did not choose to be poor. Obviously. I'm not saying that every poor person is lazy. I want government programs that help people help themselves and not ones that just give them handouts.

I'm not trying to make you angry. It's clear that we have incredibly different opinions on most of the issues. I understand your viewpoint, and hopefully you understand mine.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

Food? No I don't think think the government should give you? House? Nope. It's not that I'm not for such things, but it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. Charities and other organizations can do it better. A little welfare is okay from the government, but nothing more than that.

But I don't see health care as welfare. It makes as much sense to me as having the Police. Living in Canada, I can say that health care is a must. If it works elsewhere why can't you guys do it?

In other news, Powell backs Obama. And Powell will be Obama's top presidential adviser should he win.

 

[doesn't matter]

You act like every poor person in this country is poor because they some how drew the short straw in life and now the government needs to repay them for their bad luck. Is it not a responsibility to work hard, make a decent living and thusly keep your family safe? A little work goes a long way in America, and yet millions and millions of people choose to live off of government welfare programs. I can't hardly blame them: Why work when the government is paying all your bills and giving you food. Not to mention: The government already provides healthcare to 27% of those who have it.

So by all means. Lets take care of those who are already living off of tax-payer money even more by giving them free healthcare. Paid for by...you guessed it: tax-payers. Call me cold-hearted, but I draw the line when there are people in this country who barely have to lift a finger and all their needs are met. Is it regrettable that there are some people who can't afford healthcare, even if they are working hard? Of course it is. But why, may I ask, should the government now make it the small business owner's and large corporation's problem? Why is it a fundamental right to have something that you might not even deserve or even want to work for?

Some of those below the poverty line did not choose to be poor. Obviously. I'm not saying that every poor person is lazy. I want government programs that help people help themselves and not ones that just give them handouts.

I'm not trying to make you angry. It's clear that we have incredibly different opinions on most of the issues. I understand your viewpoint, and hopefully you understand mine.

No, it's still disgusting. Why in a country as successful as yours can you not provide for the health of the entire nation?

Besides, due to the significant part of the system that is private, that means it's about making profit and not about helping the people. Why yes, people do need to get their bling, but the fact is that if you don't have money and/or you're one of the 15.3% who don't have the funds to access medical care, you're gonna have a hard time getting better.

Your viewpoint is understandable, but it lacks virtue. Yeah, you have the whole "teach a man how to fish" thing going on, but if a man needs medical attention you just help him - not teach how to fix what ails him.

Also, about your "not trying" crap - it isn't possible to have zero unemployment (and you have those that can't earn enough), so some people have no choice but to depend on the state for the essentials. Furthermore with the downturn in the U.S. economy as of late many have lost their jobs and can't even afford to pay insurance premiums, so think about that.

 

[Red1530]

Earlier this year I talked to my Aunt who is a doctor. She said that an European-styled health care would be detrimental to our health care system. I occasionally read news reports that talk about the short comings of the universal health-care system.

 

[Allstories]

Earlier this year I talked to my Aunt who is a doctor. She said that an European-styled health care would be detrimental to our health care system. I occasionally read news reports that talk about the short comings of the universal health-care system.

Ok. Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Netto Azure]

Reply...

PBS (One of the best source of media!) Frontline: The Choice 2008 (An Unbiased Documentary on both Candidates =D)
​

This documentary has given me a newfound respect to both candidates. John McCain was a great candidate, Moderate & Independent, but he is no longer the McCain of 2000, now he has to compromise with the Religious Right Fundamentalists. (and Karl Rove) It saddens me that the US Political System forces great people to conform & find their niche in it....:(​

It's highly unlikely that Obama's Tax plan to be the final version 'cuz it has to go through Congress...Also McCain's Tax plan won't go through too due to the high probability of a Hostile Democratic Congress (With majorities in both houses, even a filibuster proof 60-40 Senate...) Scary...but I reluctantly approve...???

In other news, Powell backs Obama. And Powell will be Obama's top presidential adviser should he win.

Not much of a surprise since I've been hearing about it for a while...

Some Numbers that I want to bring up: (Shift in the balance of power in government?)
Legislative (Congress): Senate: 60-40=Filibuster-proof Senate,
House: 218= Simple Majority or 290= 2/3 Majority to overturn vetoes

Judicial (Supreme Court): Possible retirements (maybe even 2...)
There has been a lot of 5-4 decisions for the past decade...That may change...

Executive (White House): Barack Obama (Democrat) or John McCain (Republican)

Things could go either way...If you catch my drift....

Also most of our foreign oil comes from Canada, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico in that order...So just something to think about. Hockey moms get our money!!! LOL

Education: Obama: Increase spending for Public Education by $19 Billion more. (Highly unlikely due to the Economic "Rescue" Plan)
McCain: Vouchers for Private/Charter Schools for the States. (Eh...not a lot of people are going to Private Schools you know, Charter Schools? What about standards?)

Also the Supreme Court tossed out the Ohio Republican Party lawsuit to force the Ohio Seceretary of State to turn over information to county Board of Elections that could show regesteration irreguaraties. I can't belive I am typing this but I think that the United States is going to need international observers to make sure the election is fair.

I'm afraid so, International Observers are needed for this election since a lot of Americans are paying attention. Alongside the vast US and local election observers throughout the political spectrum with the YouTube/Internet observers this election will be more historic. O_O Even the voting methods and equipment are not standardized which immediately points out irregularities and unfairness *coughElectoralCollegeCough* Both sides are trading jabs: the Republicans "Voter Registration Fraud" and the Democrats "Voter Suppression". I think both are true to be frank. It's "normal" in the Philippines so I'm used to it...D=

Sorry....I'll answer the Healthcare replies later...I have a couple of things to say...But Period 6 is starting...

 

[TRIFORCE89]

PBS (One of the best source of media!) Frontline: The Choice 2008 (An Unbiased Documentary on both Candidates =D)
This documentary has given me a newfound respect to both candidates. John McCain was a great candidate, Moderate & Independent, but he is no longer the McCain of 2000, now he has to compromise with the Religious Right Fundamentalists. (and Karl Rove) It saddens me that the US Political System forces great people to conform &find their niche in it....:(

To paraphrase PBS "superstar" Rick Steves. PBS is for people with attention spans. XD

But, yeah. That's what I've changed who I'm backing :c

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

No, it's still disgusting. Why in a country as successful as yours can you not provide for the health of the entire nation?

Besides, due to the significant part of the system that is private, that means it's about making profit and not about helping the people. Why yes, people do need to get their bling, but the fact is that if you don't have money and/or you're one of the 15.3% who don't have the funds to access medical care, you're gonna have a hard time getting better.

Your viewpoint is understandable, but it lacks virtue. Yeah, you have the whole "teach a man how to fish" thing going on, but if a man needs medical attention you just help him - not teach how to fix what ails him.

Also, about your "not trying" crap - it isn't possible to have zero unemployment (and you have those that can't earn enough), so some people have no choice but to depend on the state for the essentials. Furthermore with the downturn in the U.S. economy as of late many have lost their jobs and can't even afford to pay insurance premiums, so think about that.

He's not trying to stress that "oh my God, these low class citizens are living off our money and it's sickeningggg", he's simply saying that these lower class people who AT SOME POINT are mentally and physically capable of earning an education (and actually trying during it to earn something-this is a matter that is severely overlooked in early education. A lot of lack of motivation comes directly from elementary/middle school where children should receive the most help to make sure they're ALL hardworking students so that American high schools and colleges can be competitive for a good reason.)

Once these people have their education, the doors for higher society open quite well. Alright, so yeah, we're going to have a large handful of people who are leftovers from the 50s, 60s, 70s and didn't receive or care about a great education all that much. If those people are willing to get out there, work, be healthy, be an active member of society and contribute all they can, of course they deserve to get care, treatment, etc. in case all they can do just isn't enough. But for those out there who have pretty much given up on life and are just blankly living in areas where garbage piles up everywhere, personalities and loved ones are warped by hopelessness, and all they can do is sit on their front porch and sigh, it's not the government's fault they're in that position. If someone has given all they've had to be the best person they can be, there'll be a record of that. People will take notice. They can be assisted and taken care of. I just don't think simply "giving up" is EVER the answer. People do it all the time, but they don't realize all that creates is even more widespread hopelessness.

It might seem like you can just say "there's no point in avoiding hopelessness" but there totally is. It's really easy too. You'd be surprised at the power that one involved and caring, outgoing and direct individual (even better-a group!) can have on an area in society.

Anyway, Amachi, I'm not stabbing what you said, I just wanted to help clarify Aura's post. He definitely wasn't saying if someone was bleeding in the streets that the world wouldn't stop to help him (and probably even help him pay for medical bills, if necessary.) Just that those who don't try/care shouldn't be freely handed money just for them to barely get by. I understand some people don't make enough, but perhaps they should have considered career choices, where they planned on living, how they planned on going about living, etc. before they had four kids prior to even being married. I'd bet getting better grades in early school and taking advantage of all the early life opportunities looks pretty good to them now.

This also leads me back to something I'm pretty sure was mentioned sometime ago. Weren't they (and by they, I have no clue who I mean) planning on doing some type of major revamp in certain areas of New York City? I can't remember if that was an announcement, a side-mention idea, or just gossip. Either way, I think we could definitely use it. New York is a great place, it's just...messy.

 

[Allstories]

perhaps they should have considered career choices, where they planned on living, how they planned on going about living, etc. before they had four kids prior to even being married. I'd bet getting better grades in early school and taking advantage of all the early life opportunities looks pretty good to them now.

YOUNG PEOPLE MAKING UNWISE DECISIONS? NOT IN MY AMERICA!

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

YOUNG PEOPLE MAKING UNWISE DECISIONS? NOT IN MY AMERICA!

Haha, you know what I meant :P

A little more persuasive positivity never hurt anybody. Developing after school programs like clubs and sports for kids at younger ages could also help them focus on their studies. I also think my early schooling could have been waaaay better scheduled.

The youth make a lot of their decisions and thoughts based on those above them. It's a fact, we have influence over the little ones. If an older brother is smoking, hanging out with friends when he should be home finishing chores or studying for that six-chapter test the next day, or getting fired from every part time job he has, you can't say that doesn't impact how his seven year old sibling is going to look at life.

I digress, though, that's psychology not politics.

So um, yeah..elections. haha.

 

[Netto Azure]

Health-Care in the United States of America

Under Construction: Rough Draft, Please bear with me.

Some viewpoints and analysis from media on the Candidates Healthcare Plans:
PBS: POV (Critical Condition): https://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2008/criticalcondition/special_background.html
NewsWeek (Got Insurance?):https://www.newsweek.com/id/161203

You act like every poor person in this country is poor because they some how drew the short straw in life and now the government needs to repay them for their bad luck. Is it not a responsibility to work hard, make a decent living and thusly keep your family safe? A little work goes a long way in America, and yet millions and millions of people choose to live off of government welfare programs. I can't hardly blame them: Why work when the government is paying all your bills and giving you food. Not to mention: The government already provides healthcare to 27% of those who have it.

So by all means. Lets take care of those who are already living off of tax-payer money even more by giving them free healthcare. Paid for by...you guessed it: tax-payers. Call me cold-hearted, but I draw the line when there are people in this country who barely have to lift a finger and all their needs are met. Is it regrettable that there are some people who can't afford healthcare, even if they are working hard? Of course it is. But why, may I ask, should the government now make it the small business owner's and large corporation's problem? Why is it a fundamental right to have something that you might not even deserve or even want to work for?

Some of those below the poverty line did not choose to be poor. Obviously. I'm not saying that every poor person is lazy. I want government programs that help people help themselves and not ones that just give them handouts.

I'm not trying to make you angry. It's clear that we have incredibly different opinions on most of the issues. I understand your viewpoint, and hopefully you understand mine.

First of all hard work and education is one of the cornerstones of the US Culture so I do not believe in Full blown communism nor it's ideals of a classless society. No, Aura I do not believe that the basic fundamental right to live is something to be tossed aside. Want me to quote BOTH the US Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to US Constitution to back me up on that?

The Healthcare system here in the USA is dysfunctional. The fact that the richest (Most Americans believe in this) Country on Earth, The only superpower cannot even provide the benefit of life to it's own citizens while the rest of the Western Democracies (Canada, Western Europe, Japan, and Australia to name a few...) has Universal Healthcare makes the US appear philosophically backward. Hmm...Call it "Socialism" but can you say that to our own Western Democratic Allies are a bunch of Socialists in front of their faces? I doubt that, a Social Democracy and Universal Healthcare works! Did you know that most people who don't have insurance ACTUALLY WORKS HARD. They support and they are the backbone of the US Capitalist system! Did you even think what will you do if you were laid off for a job that provided great benefits such as the US Detroit car companies? What will you do if you had an accident while looking for a job because your job was shipped overseas? (Capitalism works like that, no matter what we do)

Think about it this way if we take the burden of providing Healthcare away from employers, more money can be put on wages and salaries. Also your argument that "helping people help themselves"... Isn't that what providing access to Universal Healthcare all about? Giving them the TOOLS to be healthy? Most people don't go to their primary doctors for being afraid that their premiums will rise. And the fact is every time we have a person go to the Emergency Room for a simple problem like the cold, we have to pay for it! The Tax Payer! Our overcrowded Emergency Rooms can be relieved if we give them the tools to go to a Doctor first!

Sorry this is a rough draft, please don't comment until I'm finished or get around to it. I'll continue tomorrow...