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College education for prison inmates?

CoffeeDrink

GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
1,250
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daigonite said:
No, I don't think they should be given it for free, I take that back. I think that they should work for it through labour, yes, that they should earn the right to a "community college style" education, and pay the price in their labour as opposed to money. But honestly. How do you expect people to improve if you give them absolutely no reason to improve?
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Why, koff~

Have you ever heard of the 'no such thing as a free lunch' dichotomy? This is what it imposes. What is my pocket going to do with prison labor? Absolutely nothing. The people would still be paying for this program, whether or not they 'earn' it through labor or whatever else. They're offered jobs that make money doing laundry, ID plates, wood-shop, cooking and whatever else. For us to pay for their professors, teachers, books, etc. is wrong. It will never be free, and it will always cost the community money.

Perhaps the problem in the first place is that inmates and the prison system sees more cash than our entire school system. Talking about education, why not build it up from the very beginning and stop worrying about those already caught? If you're talking about educating people and making them wish to remake themselves better, then you're looking in the wrong place. I would suggest that educating them in the first place would be far more important than after the fact. And yes, some people slip through the cracks, boo-hoo. That's life. The system is far from perfect, but it's what we've got, and overhauling it would see even more people fall through the cracks.

If people followed the law in the first place, I suppose that we wouldn't have to bust druggies. That and drug addicts hurt other people by stealing, lying, and damaging others. It isn't like we just throw these people in there for fun. Plus, talking about rehabilitation, can you think of a better way for them to sober up than by depriving them of their addiction entirely? I cannot. Oh, and the Norway prison system would never work over here. I hate it when people use that as an example, koffi~
 

Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon
3,416
Posts
15
Years
CoffeeDrink said:
Why, koff~

Have you ever heard of the 'no such thing as a free lunch' dichotomy? This is what it imposes. What is my pocket going to do with prison labor? Absolutely nothing. The people would still be paying for this program, whether or not they 'earn' it through labor or whatever else. They're offered jobs that make money doing laundry, ID plates, wood-shop, cooking and whatever else. For us to pay for their professors, teachers, books, etc. is wrong. It will never be free, and it will always cost the community money.
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It's really ironic that you use the "free lunch" dichotomy because that's exactly what our current prison system acts like with our tax dollars. Like I mentioned previously, I believe that they should actually work for their education through labour, which is doable, if they go through a community college. If you mark their hours towards money getting an education then yes, their labour, which, if outside of prison would be earning them money, instead directly earns them classes. How is that a free lunch? Read my post next time.

CoffeeDrink said:
Perhaps the problem in the first place is that inmates and the prison system sees more cash than our entire school system. Talking about education, why not build it up from the very beginning and stop worrying about those already caught? If you're talking about educating people and making them wish to remake themselves better, then you're looking in the wrong place. I would suggest that educating them in the first place would be far more important than after the fact. And yes, some people slip through the cracks, boo-hoo. That's life. The system is far from perfect, but it's what we've got, and overhauling it would see even more people fall through the cracks.
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I don't disagree that our prison system gets too much money, however, the bigger problem is the great mismanagement of money. Don't you get angry when you realize that a person who is serving live in prison spends your tax dollars for food and board while people who played the game straight can't afford their homes or food? It makes me angry and it should make you angry too.

So why should we insist on a system that has shown to cause reincarcerations? Why should we not embrace a system that has been shown to knock down this reincarceration rate from over 70% to less than 20%? I think investing in the well being of people so that they can be integrated into society is a much better investment than locking them up for a long time on our dime with no chance of them possibly turning themselves around.

And yes, you should care if a few slip through the cracks, even if you take a "who cares about these evil prisoners" mindset because those are more tax dollars "at work".

If people followed the law in the first place, I suppose that we wouldn't have to bust druggies. That and drug addicts hurt other people by stealing, lying, and damaging others. It isn't like we just throw these people in there for fun. Plus, talking about rehabilitation, can you think of a better way for them to sober up than by depriving them of their addiction entirely? I cannot. Oh, and the Norway prison system would never work over here. I hate it when people use that as an example,
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Except the laws aren't always right. That's why we have the Supreme court, that's why we have amendments, that's why we have a law making process in the first place because sometimes we aren't ♥♥♥♥ing right. The laws don't cover every instance, the laws don't consider changes in society, the laws are not the ultimate reality.

Drug addicts are people who suffer from a psychological disorder and the last thing that could help them is going cold turkey, especially since there are drugs that can kill people through withdrawal. There are people who also have psychological problems but those people are sent to psychiatric wards where they can actually (at least if the ward is worth its money) improve their condition and possibly fight off their addiction. No, that doesn't mean that the crimes they commit while they are abusing a substance is right, but maybe, just maybe, they're not doing it because they are human scum, but because they are desperate for another fix, which again, is a psychological issue.

True drug rehab takes months and going cold turkey can have devastating effects. This is why drug rehabilitation centers exist, and why we have systems for helping tobacco addicts through gum or patches and things like that (which is legal). Withdrawal can also cause effects like seizures and strokes. And even if that doesn't happen going cold turkey is an incredibly uncomfortable experience that can be equated to being very ill. And don't even begin with the ♥♥♥♥ing "Oh they shouldn't have done it in the first place" argument. We're so okay in this nation with some person making "mistake" after "mistake" and then suddenly they get obese and get diabetes, or someone smoking a single cigarette and getting hooked, and we're fine with trying to help THOSE people, but a person who does a drug is a horrible person and should be sent to jail. Please do your research on drugs before spouting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about them.

And by the way, I never said that we should adopt the system, but I was using it as proof that maybe treating people who committed a crime like people who need to have a problem fixed instead of locking them up for years with no ability to integrate themselves back into society is a concept that isn't too farfetched.
 
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CoffeeDrink

GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
1,250
Posts
10
Years
daigonite said:
It's really ironic that you use the "free lunch" dichotomy because that's exactly what our current prison system acts like with our tax dollars. Like I mentioned previously, I believe that they should actually work for their education through labour, which is doable, if they go through a community college. If you mark their hours towards money getting an education then yes, their labour, which, if outside of prison would be earning them money, instead directly earns them classes. How is that a free lunch? Read my post next time.


I don't disagree that our prison system gets too much money, however, the bigger problem is the great mismanagement of money. Don't you get angry when you realize that a person who is serving live in prison spends your tax dollars for food and board while people who played the game straight can't afford their homes or food? It makes me angry and it should make you angry too.

So why should we insist on a system that has shown to cause reincarcerations? Why should we not embrace a system that has been shown to knock down this reincarceration rate from over 70% to less than 20%? I think investing in the well being of people so that they can be integrated into society is a much better investment than locking them up for a long time on our dime with no chance of them possibly turning themselves around.

And yes, you should care if a few slip through the cracks, even if you take a "who cares about these evil prisoners" mindset because those are more tax dollars "at work".


Except the laws aren't always right. That's why we have the Supreme court, that's why we have amendments, that's why we have a law making process in the first place because sometimes we aren't ♥♥♥♥ing right. The laws don't cover every instance, the laws don't consider changes in society, the laws are not the ultimate reality.

Drug addicts are people who suffer from a psychological disorder and the last thing that could help them is going cold turkey, especially since there are drugs that can kill people through withdrawal. There are people who also have psychological problems but those people are sent to psychiatric wards where they can actually (at least if the ward is worth its money) improve their condition and possibly fight off their addiction. No, that doesn't mean that the crimes they commit while they are abusing a substance is right, but maybe, just maybe, they're not doing it because they are human scum, but because they are desperate for another fix, which again, is a psychological issue.

True drug rehab takes months and going cold turkey can have devastating effects. This is why drug rehabilitation centers exist, and why we have systems for helping tobacco addicts through gum or patches and things like that (which is legal). Withdrawal can also cause effects like seizures and strokes. And even if that doesn't happen going cold turkey is an incredibly uncomfortable experience that can be equated to being very ill. And don't even begin with the ♥♥♥♥ing "Oh they shouldn't have done it in the first place" argument. We're so okay in this nation with some person making "mistake" after "mistake" and then suddenly they get obese and get diabetes, or someone smoking a single cigarette and getting hooked, and we're fine with trying to help THOSE people, but a person who does a drug is a horrible person and should be sent to jail. Please do your research on drugs before spouting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about them.

And by the way, I never said that we should adopt the system, but I was using it as proof that maybe treating people who committed a crime like people who need to have a problem fixed instead of locking them up for years with no ability to integrate themselves back into society is a concept that isn't too farfetched.
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This is quite ignorant of you, koff~

It seems that at some points you're for giving them money, but also against it. Then you state I 'should be outraged' about the system getting so much money. Haven't I made that clear enough? Have I not presented my distaste for dolling out riches to the wrongdoers? And my statement on sobering them up still stands. Stating that I should do 'my research' has nothing to do with the fact that the prison system sobers up those it holds inside. How did that simple idea manage to slip through your fingers?

Most people that are addicted to drugs (surprise, surprise) were not forced to take them. You're victimizing these folk. And as I said before, a drug addict not only hurts themselves but also those around him. There is a reason why we have so many addicts in prison. Know why? Because they burgle people. They steal from people. They take what's not theirs. They lift. Five finger discount. That sort of thing. If you were to do some studies into the police field, it shows that drug addicts often steal from those that they know. A big mistake if this person dislikes it when you take their goddamn stuff. Another reason why they steal from people they know is to avoid getting mauled by Rambo the homeowner. Oh, and to feed their habit. Gotta steal to feed myself crack, can't forget that.

We don't roll up on people using hard drugs and just slap 'em in cuffs and off they go for 25 years. The system does not work that way. Know how I know this? Because we no longer have any room available. Beds are filling up, and you'll find that non-violent drug addicts are being paroled before, oh I don't know, murderers? We're running out of room, and so the system is chewing them up and spitting them out as fast as it can. It's also easier to track thieving vagrants if you know where they are, by the way.

Disregarding the fact that we treat our prisoners better than several other countries, you plugged right on ahead and used Norway again. The reason why Norway's program will not work. Population, genius. You can take all of Norway's people, clone them all seven times, and put them all in California. It is a fact, and general common sense that gathering more people in one place causes crime to escalate. People split up, create their own diverse groups, create their own gangs, religious sects and so on and so forth. According to UNDOC, Norway has a murder rate of about 2.3 per 100,00 persons. California had about 5 per 100,000. That's over a 100% difference. California alone, by itself, had a higher homicide rate than all of Norway. We're not podunking about other crimes, we're talking about basic murder. Another fun fact: California is smaller than Norway. You know that annoying slob of a neighbor that you want to strangle to death? Well, some people down here actually do just that.

From what I understand, Norway's prisons are hardly prisons, and the prisoners get to walk about in wide open fields. That's great for Norway. However, over here, we try our best to accommodate the suckers. "Tooth ache? Dawww, here is some free care. Who's my little killer?" not exactly what happens, but you get the idea. Not to mention that people do not like looking at prisons in their cities. And that's also besides the fact that the guards are spit on, attacked, insulted, urinated on, and 'dive bombed' with human feces on a regular basis. Trying something like that in a Jamaican prison? Pssh. Let's just say that no one saw you getting your skull caved in.

The Norway program is impossible to implement here because the culture is vastly different. The mindset is different. Hell, every single everything is different. The government functions differently, the foods different, the weather, etc. You can't take a small population like Norway's and just say "they did it, so we can too". We can't! Have you seen the debt we're in? We're balls deep in the stuff and you want to go around throwing money at the issue. If all prisoners were model citizens, maybe, but they try killing each other over Jell-O so frequently that we have to view each and every one of them with the same degree of suspicion. Lest we're viewed as 'unfair' and 'playing favorites'. As much as you may not like it, the system is shaped just as much on the outside as it is on the inside.

Changing things costs money kid. Lots of it. We change laws all the time, and even then, there's confusion, missed opportunity, some states and areas functioning off of the old laws because they don't keep in touch, there's pamphlets to print out, books to correct, employees to notify, potential seminars the higher ups have to attend, the public has to be notified, depending on the law officers may have to get involved in community meetings. . . change is not a cheap thing. And we keep wanting to spend more than what we have (and we have none). And when I say no free lunch, I mean no free lunch. We would have to pay out to train people to teach these dorks. That's money. Our money. Their labor will not recoup the thousands lost. We already pay them to do jobs like roadside clean up (and in some cases public service is a sentence so they don't get paid, of course). So, what, we'd stop paying them 10 cents and what not? What's the point?

Again, I say forgo the whole mess and educate them while they're young. It's been proven that educating younger minds is a tad easier than trying to change Nate Dawg$ AKA PCP, because he's to cool for school and thinks books are for suckers. It's easier to instill the passion for learning in young minds. It's better to teach them all the ins and outs about society. It's better to notify parents where they're going, if they need help studying, or discipline than to give money to Nate Dawg$. Schools are steadily collapsing, giving rise to a poorly educated demographic. It's also been proven that lower educated areas creates crime. Educate them from the very beginning and what do you have? Less criminals.

The issue I have with you is that your scope is all reactive, and not proactive. I believe that schools are very important in society, and we're treating ours like crap.

And last but not least! Did you know, that we now have 'private prisons'? Prisons that are effectively leased to the government to throw people in? And pseudo-private para-military staff the joints? Hm. These billion dollar corporations like to keep their billions, so fighting the current system means also fighting them. And fighting billion dollar corporations is never fun. Especially when these companies were found to have quite a few judges in their pants pocket.

Let's recap. CoffeeDrink is pro-school and anti-prison in the case of loaning money.

New systems? With what money, say I.

Inmates getting college programs on top of their free dental? !@#$?

Do we have time or money to re-shape and re-train our sheriff staff? No. War and prisons gets the lion's share. We're also one of the few countries that cut education at the first sign of financial crisis. Boo.

CoffeeDrink's Official Analysis says: we have no !@#$ing money, koffi~
 
Omicron

Omicron

the day was mine
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CoffeeDrink said:
I'll tell you why, koff~

Criminals that care nothing for the laws and rights of others do not deserve the right to a free anything. Rights are stripped away from them like they strip away so much else. Do you think it's fair that I have to pay for my education, fight the bank into keeping my house, while struggling to feed myself and pay for everyday living expenses, pay off debt and having to care for someone else through my already measly allowance? That right there is the very definition of wrong. I should not have to pay for someone's education who broke the law. I should not have to pay for their teeth, or their health, their cable, their books. I can assure you that our prisons are nice strolls in the park compared to other prisons around the world. They keep coming back, so? Make it hell. They do not deserve my legally obtained, hard earned cash. Why? Because I'm not payed enough. Fight poverty, fight crime. See? That's what I believe anyway, koffi~
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You are right, they don't deserve free education, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve it at all. Forget about college level education, why not elementary, middle or high school education? Why not give them access to a library? Some of the inmates may have never attended school. Others might have "attended" but did not learn anything because they had to sustain a family. There can be many reasons for someone not to study or finish school. I'm in no way standing up for them. If they committed a crime and are guilty they deserve it. But we cannot deny them the opportunity to straighten themselves up. To change the path of their lives. That is a flawed system of justice. One cannot be the judge, jury and executioner.

Make the education optional and have them work for it. Maybe something like this can be implemented in a larger scale. Have the inmates pedal stationary bikes to charge batteries and power parts of the city. And instead of reducing their sentence, they can earn access to the classes or library.


Again, give them optional basic education, access to a library or teach them a craft. Make them work for it and give them a chance to change their lives, and this can change them drastically. If they are going to leave the prison one day or another, why not do something to avoid them from recurring?

EDIT:

I also agree that the best way to fight crime is with better education. I'm 100% sure about that. The education system needs a larger budget, yes. It should also be the priority. But you can't deny them an opportunity. Make it optional and have them work for it, that way they'll be paying for it and the government can focus on the education system. That way the people interested in changing can change and be productive and return to the society. And those who do not want to change get nothing from this program.

This concept is a little idealistic, I know. But I believe that many of the inmates aren't soulless bastards. I believe some of them have more to them than what you are acknowledging. I do believe it could make a change, I do believe some of them could and want to change.
 
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Blu·Ray

Blu·Ray

Manta Ray Pokémon
382
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14
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After reading all your posts on this topic, I thought why not give the discussion another perspective:

I live in Denmark. The country of crazy high taxes, free hospitals for everyone and the place where people earn enough in unemployment benefits to live a pretty decent middle class life.
Additionally, our students earn money from the state for taking an education. The amount of money that we students earn is enough to live in a shared apartment in the most expensive cities in our country, whilst students with a good oversight over their economy are able to save up money every month, to use on a future home or a car(which is really expensive here).

But let's get to the point. My neighbor works in the jail. She's a prison officer, and she patrols the place, which makes for a lot of interesting stories that make you think about stuff. So bear in mind, the following stories are completely anecdotal and resemble what is actually going on.
Danish prisoners earn money. A prisoner has a pretty normal day of labor. He wakes up in the morning and goes to his job inside the prison, and this is where my point comes in: Private companies have production divisions inside the prison! An example could be our local clothes pin company. They have a department in the local jail where the clothes pins are assembled. And for every bucket of pins that the prisoners make, they earn a token that represents cash. They can then use these tokens to pay for food, to get a new TV, and they can even get a bigger and more luxurious room if they pay a monthly rent!

What these prisons essentially do is to make a little civilization, just like the Norwegian article that daigonite linked to (interesting article by the way, nice find). They learn how to work hard for your money, that life is not simple, nor extremely complicated. These people can learn how to be citizens, and I beleive, like Omicron above me that at least some of these people can get out of the dark spiral that is crime and become citizens in our society. Society needs people, people need society, inmates need education!
 
Sopheria

Sopheria

響け〜　響け！
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Wow, some really interesting responses to this. There's a lot of different perspectives to look at this from, I see. In my OP I didn't give my opinion, since I wanted the discussion to be about the facts rather than my opinion on it. So here I go!

I think college education for prison inmates is a good idea. I do think it has the potential to reduce recidivism rates, if implemented properly. One reason why I take the libertarian route on a lot of issues is because I understand how badly prison time can ruin someone's life. Jobs will be reluctant to take you, but you have to provide for yourself somehow, and in the criminal world having done jail time is practically a resume booster. It's a vicious cycle any way you look at it and it ends up making people worse of for having gone to prison, rather than better.

What I don't agree with is that it should come out of the taxpayer's pocket. Like one of those Senators said, why should people who are trying to put their own selves or their children through school be forced to pay for criminals to go to school? If there's going to be college education for prison inmates, it should come from scholarships and private donations. And if there's no private individuals willing to shore up the cash, then it shouldn't happen. Having taxpayers fund it shouldn't be an alternative.

Another advantage to a scholarship program would be that the organization paying for it could set whatever restrictions they feel are necessary. For example, perhaps they need to have been on good behavior for x amount of their time in prison. Or maybe they need to have done x number of hours of community service. This would help filter out the ones who actually show promise and are likely to do something with the education they receive.
 
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