5th Gen Let's Discuss Gray (and Other "Colors")

In generation five as a whole, "black and white" are used as metaphors for extremes or differences, and they're usually accompanied by a more subtly-referenced "gray" existing somewhere in-between. We also have examples of lack of color that appear throughout the generation.

I would like to open a discussion regarding all matters of thematic "grays" within the generation five games, as well as other "color-related" symbolism. I can give a few examples below:

• In Black & White, N detests the idea of black and white mixing together and becoming gray. In this case, "black and white" refer to people and Pokémon. Ironically, N himself acts as the "gray" in this scenario, as he is a human who can communicate with Pokémon (this is further evidenced by his gray eyes). We can discuss the significance of the character who despises the idea of black and white mixing being the gray himself (as opposed to another character entirely).
• Another underlying theme within generation five was the juxtaposition of modern technology with more a traditional way of life. Why do you think Game Freak chose to have Black (Version) represent "technology" and White (Version) represent "tradition?"
• Characters such as Cheren and Bianca have their names rooted in "black" and "white," but did you know the Black & White protagonists' names, Touko and Touya, come from the word for "transparency" (toumei, 「透明」)? Other "color"-related names include Hugh and Colress. Discuss the importance of these names in regards to the character they belong to.
  Alternatively, N's name is more rooted in mathematics, while Ghetsis's is in music. Why do you think Game Freak would opt for this when the theme of "colors" is already established? The same can be applied to Rosa and Nate.
• Although it is easy to assume that the "middle road" (gray) would be the most reasonable compared to the more "extremes" of black and white, Kyurem, the gray to Reshiram and Zekrom's white and black, is portrayed as incredibly sinister. Do you feel there is any sort of symbolism regarding its ability to absorb its counterparts? Do you think there is a reason why gray is portrayed almost antagonistically in this sense?

I've barely scratched the surface on this topic, so please--feel free to respond to any prompts I've already given or chime in with your own. Discussing the symbolism of generation five is extremely fun for me and I'd love to hear what other people think in regards to these themes. There are a lot of branching ideas that can come from these topics so I feel this would be a lot of fun!

while Ghetsis's is in music

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It is?

Also iirc Rosa is the word for pink in Spanish or something, though that's probably more of a coincidence than anything.

....I feel like I should have more to say but I can't think of anything

Nah said:

It is?

Also iirc Rosa is the word for pink in Spanish or something, though that's probably more of a coincidence than anything.

....I feel like I should have more to say but I can't think of anything

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In certain European musical notations, C# can be read as "Cis." And G is just the note G. So you have G-Cis which gets localized as "Ghetsis." In his battle theme, those two notes are used frequently by the timpanis. A fun thing to note is that G and C# are a tritone, a very dissonant note interval.

Rosa is indeed Spanish for pink, but I do think that is a coincidence. When you put together Rosa and Nate, you get "resonate!" Resonance can be associated with music too, interestingly enough.

Nah said:

It is?

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I guess there's always this. 'A subtle moment of clarity, / And colours of transparency.'

I'm not sure if the human-Pokémon thing is meant thematically so much as just being an image for a theme, and one which is fairly old. The 'black' and 'white' may not be firmly identified with either, and just used as an image of division, which isn't by itself saying much. 'Black' and 'white' don't here represent two opposed sides, but rather two distinct things which may be otherwise indifferent. I'm not sure if they have that much going on in terms of themes of Black and White there, especially given the aesthetic and general appeal of these games.

illumine said:

I'm not sure if the human-Pokémon thing is meant thematically so much as just being an image for a theme, and one which is fairly old. The 'black' and 'white' may not be firmly identified with either, and just used as an image of division, which isn't by itself saying much. 'Black' and 'white' don't here represent two opposed sides, but rather two distinct things which may be otherwise indifferent. I'm not sure if they have that much going on in terms of themes of Black and White there, especially given the aesthetic and general appeal of these games.

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I do agree when it comes to treating people and Pokémon as "black and white that shouldn't mix," one isn't inherently associated with black or white. But it is interesting how the character who insists upon that is the one who sits in the middle, a "mix" of being able to communicate with both Pokémon and people. Maybe there is not much importance symbolically in N being both the person against people and Pokémon being together while also acting as their sort of middle-ground, but I do feel it, at the very least, is a major point of tension which lends to his growth throughout the game(s).

Everything you've said about the black and white analogy is very reminiscent to the Chinese philosophy of yin and yang -- so much that I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned it. Let's take a look at the names of the dragons:

• Zekrom - from "kuro" - black. Also, its Japanese species name is the Black Yin Pokemon.
• Reshiram - from "shiro" -white. Also, its Japanese species name is the White Yang Pokemon.

The central point of the concept is that opposite elements (yin-yang, black-white) are actually meant to complement each other, to exist together as a whole, to give raise to one another -- how can shadow exist without light, that sort of thing. Remember how Zekrom and Reshiram were once a single dragon, that divided itself into two equally powerful beings; now picture the taijitu.


And now on to Kyurem. He's not really gray, he's not the mix of the two, he's not the middle road. It is said that after the original dragon split, its empty shell was left behind... that's Kyurem. In Chinese philosophy, that's called "wuji" - the absence of yin and yang, infinite nothingness, symbolized by an empty circle. Kyurem's species name? The Boundary Pokemon.

And since we're on the topic of names, I didn't know that the protagonists' Japanese names were derived from "transparency", and now that I think about it, I believe it is meant to contrast both Bianca and Cheren (black-white-transparent), and N, who I also see as gray -- black+white vs transparent, yin+yang vs wuji.

So yes, I do believe that N is meant to symbolize the duality of people and Pokemon coming together. The mathematical motifs around him are actually tied in with the duality theme as well. For instance, he has a Void Cube, which is the first iteration of a Menger Sponge, a theoretical construct with infinite surface and zero volume at the same time. I remember once reading that the notes in N's battle theme correspond to the first eight prime numbers. Prime numbers -- subject of fascination for mathematicians since ancient times. _{math time now} A prime number is a number that can be divided without a remainder only by 1 or by itself (again, all or nothing); what's interesting is that they obviously become rarer and rarer as we progress through the integers, but they never end! It's a proven fact that there are infinitely many prime numbers! _{math over} Right, so again, infinity, another tie-in with the main theme of the games.

Other color names: the Seven Sages (except Ghetsis) are named after the colors of the rainbow ( and for all it's worth, they also quote Chinese philosophers).

And character names (Ghetsis, Rosa, Nate) is not the only way they've used music in the games. Think Accumula, Village Bridge; you can add instruments to the music in those places. In Icirrus, you can hear clapping when you get near the four dancing children. And I've already mentioned how N's battle theme relates to the character; as for Ghetsis, you can actually hear C♯ in his battle theme -- also Harmonia, from "harmony"; in music, harmonization sounds pleasant when there is a balance between the tense and relaxed sounds, also matching the main theme of duality. So yes, I'd say that music plays a pretty important role in the games.

tl;dr Yin-yang, math, colors, music -- everything boils down to contrary elements dependent on one another (black-white, humans-Pokemon, Zekrom-Reshiram), the absence of these elements (Kyurem), dualism and nothingness at the same time (N). Also, I think about this stuff way too much.

Miau said:

Everything you've said about the black and white analogy is very reminiscent to the Chinese philosophy of yin and yang -- so much that I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned it. Let's take a look at the names of the dragons:

• Zekrom - from "kuro" - black. Also, its Japanese species name is the Black Yin Pokemon.
• Reshiram - from "shiro" -white. Also, its Japanese species name is the White Yang Pokemon.

The central point of the concept is that opposite elements (yin-yang, black-white) are actually meant to complement each other, to exist together as a whole, to give raise to one another -- how can shadow exist without light, that sort of thing. Remember how Zekrom and Reshiram were once a single dragon, that divided itself into two equally powerful beings; now picture the taijitu.

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The philosophy of yin and yang, and black and white existing together, is definitely major within these games! Everyone has their differences but we can all still co-exist--that's definitely a theme inherent in generation 5. I always wondered why, in the localized versions of the games, they changed Reshiram and Zekrom into the "Vast White" and "Deep Black" Pokémon when their Japanese titles accentuated their roles just fine.

And now on to Kyurem. He's not really gray, he's not the mix of the two, he's not the middle road. It is said that after the original dragon split, its empty shell was left behind... that's Kyurem. In Chinese philosophy, that's called "wuji" - the absence of yin and yang, infinite nothingness, symbolized by an empty circle. Kyurem's species name? The Boundary Pokemon.

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This is a very good point. I'm not completely educated on the concept of wuji--do you think there's some symbolism regarding Kyurem's ability to devour and take over its counterparts that could tie in with that idea? The fact that the Pokémon who is the absence can absorb something whole and necessary and become something quite monstrous...

And since we're on the topic of names, I didn't know that the protagonists' Japanese names were derived from "transparency", and now that I think about it, I believe it is meant to contrast both Bianca and Cheren (black-white-transparent), and N, who I also see as gray -- black+white vs transparent, yin+yang vs wuji.

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Personally, I always interpreted the protagonists' and rivals' names to be associated with their role, in addition to tying in with the games' underlying themes. As a silent and self-insert protagonist, their personalities are literally transparent--not affected by what occurs. Whereas Cheren and Bianca start off with personalities, goals, hopes, and dreams.

So yes, I do believe that N is meant to symbolize the duality of people and Pokemon coming together. The mathematical motifs around him are actually tied in with the duality theme as well. For instance, he has a Void Cube, which is the first iteration of a Menger Sponge, a theoretical construct with infinite surface and zero volume at the same time. I remember once reading that the notes in N's battle theme correspond to the first eight prime numbers. Prime numbers -- subject of fascination for mathematicians since ancient times. _{math time now} A prime number is a number that can be divided without a remainder only by 1 or by itself (again, all or nothing); what's interesting is that they obviously become rarer and rarer as we progress through the integers, but they never end! It's a proven fact that there are infinitely many prime numbers! _{math over} Right, so again, infinity, another tie-in with the main theme of the games.

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Really nice observation with the Void Cube! And I like that tie-in with prime numbers. N's name, Natural, is also thought to be based on natural numbers. Do you think that could also tie in with some of the games' underlying themes (it's been a long time since I've ever had to do the maths so I'm kind of rusty in this department, ha ha)?

Other color names: the Seven Sages (except Ghetsis) are named after the colors of the rainbow ( and for all it's worth, they also quote Chinese philosophers).

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The Seven Sages are actual colors though, and not "tints" or "the absence of light/all colors put together," depending on how you want to define black and white. Do you feel there's any significance to having the Sages represent the color spectrum while the rest of the game revolves around black and white? Also, nice detail regarding them quoting Chinese philosophers, and very appropriate, too, considering the ideas at the core of this generation.

And character names (Ghetsis, Rosa, Nate) is not the only way they've used music in the games. Think Accumula, Village Bridge; you can add instruments to the music in those places. In Icirrus, you can hear clapping when you get near the four dancing children. And I've already mentioned how N's battle theme relates to the character; as for Ghetsis, you can actually hear C♯ in his battle theme -- also Harmonia, from "harmony"; in music, harmonization sounds pleasant when there is a balance between the tense and relaxed sounds, also matching the main theme of duality. So yes, I'd say that music plays a pretty important role in the games.

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Music is treated in a really fun matter throughout these games! In addition to those towns and cities where you can add to the music being played, all routes do a similar thing, too. While you're standing still, there's no percussion. But when you walk, the percussion comes in! And inside caves, the music also slows down and gets lower when you venture further down. But I'm not sure if that's symbolic or if they just added those features to allow for more dynamic in-game music; what do you think?

The juxtaposition of Ghetsis's first and last name is super fascinating to me. Tritones were once refered to as "the devil of music," and that's very appropriate for Ghetsis. They even took a step further and incorporated it into his design--his hair really reminds me of demon horns, especially when in silhouette! But that makes me wonder, why is it that Ghetsis is the one whose last name is Harmonia? Maybe it's tied to the idea that you can't have harmony without dissonance? Why do you think Ghetsis has such a lovely last name when his first is literally an awful-sounding note combination?

tl;dr Yin-yang, math, colors, music -- everything boils down to contrary elements dependent on one another (black-white, humans-Pokemon, Zekrom-Reshiram), the absence of these elements (Kyurem), dualism and nothingness at the same time (N). Also, I think about this stuff way too much.

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But going into such depth on these subjects is so much fun! So there's no such thing as thinking about it too much!

Rivvon said:

This is a very good point. I'm not completely educated on the concept of wuji--do you think there's some symbolism regarding Kyurem's ability to devour and take over its counterparts that could tie in with that idea? The fact that the Pokémon who is the absence can absorb something whole and necessary and become something quite monstrous...

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But a fused Kyurem is not whole, I think that's the point. Wuji is the initial nothingness that produced taiji, which is the oneness of yin and yang keeping each other in balance (symbolized by the taijitu). A fused Kyurem is out of balance, incomplete without both counterparts. So maybe the grotesque appearance of fused Kyurem is meant to illustrate that indeed, black and white need each other to create something whole. And there's also the fact the one performing the fusion is Ghetsis, the one who is effectively trying to disrupt the balance in the region.

Personally, I always interpreted the protagonists' and rivals' names to be associated with their role, in addition to tying in with the games' underlying themes. As a silent and self-insert protagonist, their personalities are literally transparent--not affected by what occurs. Whereas Cheren and Bianca start off with personalities, goals, hopes, and dreams.

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Oh very nice! And Cheren and Bianca are quite opposites as well. Besides the obvious, you can also see how Cheren is all about pursuing his goal of becoming the Champion, but has no idea why he's trying so hard to become strong and what to do with that power; Bianca on the other hand, knows that she cares about Pokemon, she's aware of her limitations, and she's trying to find a way in life with what she's got. Quite fitting for the whole ideals vs truth theme, right?

Really nice observation with the Void Cube! And I like that tie-in with prime numbers. N's name, Natural, is also thought to be based on natural numbers. Do you think that could also tie in with some of the games' underlying themes (it's been a long time since I've ever had to do the maths so I'm kind of rusty in this department, ha ha)?

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Well, numbers have fascinated mathematicians from the beginning of time, especially because there are so many astounding examples of numerical patterns occurring in nature, like the Fibonacci sequence and golden ration (phi) in flower petals, sea shells, galaxies and even the human body. I'm guessing that N is meant to symbolize the balance between the black and the white, a balance that occurs naturally all around us and that can be explained with numbers. "Harmonia" also fits this. For example, the closer the proportions of the human face relate to phi, the more harmonious and attractive it becomes.

The Seven Sages are actual colors though, and not "tints" or "the absence of light/all colors put together," depending on how you want to define black and white. Do you feel there's any significance to having the Sages represent the color spectrum while the rest of the game revolves around black and white? Also, nice detail regarding them quoting Chinese philosophers, and very appropriate, too, considering the ideas at the core of this generation.

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I think that's the point, that they're pure colors; white light is disassembled into the color spectrum (rainbow!) and the color spectrum is reassembled into white light. So putting them all together (except Ghetsis, he doesn't really fit the theme here), you do get pure, white light.

Music is treated in a really fun matter throughout these games! In addition to those towns and cities where you can add to the music being played, all routes do a similar thing, too. While you're standing still, there's no percussion. But when you walk, the percussion comes in! And inside caves, the music also slows down and gets lower when you venture further down. But I'm not sure if that's symbolic or if they just added those features to allow for more dynamic in-game music; what do you think?

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I really love what the did with the music in these games. I'm gonna say that while it does make for a more dynamic environment, the symbolism only comes through with each piece taken individually; like the primes in N's theme, and the timpani in Ghetsis' theme (I know nothing of music theory sadly, I've just read about these, otherwise I would probably be all over the music scores haha).

The juxtaposition of Ghetsis's first and last name is super fascinating to me. Tritones were once refered to as "the devil of music," and that's very appropriate for Ghetsis. They even took a step further and incorporated it into his design--his hair really reminds me of demon horns, especially when in silhouette! But that makes me wonder, why is it that Ghetsis is the one whose last name is Harmonia? Maybe it's tied to the idea that you can't have harmony without dissonance? Why do you think Ghetsis has such a lovely last name when his first is literally an awful-sounding note combination?

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Well, it's also N's last name though, which I've already mentioned above. Ghetsis is definitely a very evil individual, broken both mentally and physically -- it seems he's missing his right arm. So his last name is definitely contrasting with his entire being, while being a perfect match for N (like natural harmony or something?)

But going into such depth on these subjects is so much fun! So there's no such thing as thinking about it too much!

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Noo I just did it again :D

Miau said:

But a fused Kyurem is not whole, I think that's the point. Wuji is the initial nothingness that produced taiji, which is the oneness of yin and yang keeping each other in balance (symbolized by the taijitu). A fused Kyurem is out of balance, incomplete without both counterparts. So maybe the grotesque appearance of fused Kyurem is meant to illustrate that indeed, black and white need each other to create something whole. And there's also the fact the one performing the fusion is Ghetsis, the one who is effectively trying to disrupt the balance in the region.

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That's a good way to think about it, I think; that without the other counterpart, it's incomplete. You can sort of see that in Black and White Kyurem's design, too, a sort of "incompleteness" (as a side note, N mentions the incompleteness theorem in B2W2 in regards to his beloved Ferris wheels).

A lot of fans seem to make sense of the Tao Trio's fusion because they all used to be one singular dragon. Do you feel there's a significance in Kyurem being the one who changes by absorbing another? Or rather, do you think there's any deeper reason for why Reshiram and Zekrom can't fuse with each other, and why all three can't fuse back into the original dragon?

Oh very nice! And Cheren and Bianca are quite opposites as well. Besides the obvious, you can also see how Cheren is all about pursuing his goal of becoming the Champion, but has no idea why he's trying so hard to become strong and what to do with that power; Bianca on the other hand, knows that she cares about Pokemon, she's aware of her limitations, and she's trying to find a way in life with what she's got. Quite fitting for the whole ideals vs truth theme, right?

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I couldn't agree more. That's exactly why I love the rivals in generation five!

Interestingly, Hugh's name is also rooted in colors, but is generally more applicable to the the colors that aren't black and white. What do you think about the possibility of his sub-plot involving his sister's Purrloin in the grand scheme of the ideas we've discussed?

Well, numbers have fascinated mathematicians from the beginning of time, especially because there are so many astounding examples of numerical patterns occurring in nature, like the Fibonacci sequence and golden ration (phi) in flower petals, sea shells, galaxies and even the human body. I'm guessing that N is meant to symbolize the balance between the black and the white, a balance that occurs naturally all around us and that can be explained with numbers. "Harmonia" also fits this. For example, the closer the proportions of the human face relate to phi, the more harmonious and attractive it becomes.

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I like that, I think that's well-put and ties the idea of balance together with the mathematical themes!

I think that's the point, that they're pure colors; white light is disassembled into the color spectrum (rainbow!) and the color spectrum is reassembled into white light. So putting them all together (except Ghetsis, he doesn't really fit the theme here), you do get pure, white light.

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Nicely said!

I really love what the did with the music in these games. I'm gonna say that while it does make for a more dynamic environment, the symbolism only comes through with each piece taken individually; like the primes in N's theme, and the timpani in Ghetsis' theme (I know nothing of music theory sadly, I've just read about these, otherwise I would probably be all over the music scores haha).

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I took an advanced music theory class many, many years ago so someone else would probably be able to word this much more eloquently than I can, but music theory really is just math. The reason why chords, progressions, keys, and all of the aspects that make music what it is "work" is because they are heavily rooted in these sort of mathematical patterns. In that sense, I think it was a nice touch for Game Freak to give Ghetsis a musically-themed name, and to bring out N's mathematical genius.

Well, it's also N's last name though, which I've already mentioned above. Ghetsis is definitely a very evil individual, broken both mentally and physically -- it seems he's missing his right arm. So his last name is definitely contrasting with his entire being, while being a perfect match for N (like natural harmony or something?)

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Yeah, when comparing N with Ghetsis you get some interesting juxtapositions, too. Such as how in B2W2 Ghetsis proclaims N "isn't human" because "no real person could talk to Pokémon." But in BW, when Ghetsis starts talking in N's Castle about his true intentions, Cheren is the one to point out that Ghetsis is "without a human heart." So perhaps the real juxtaposition here is how N, despite Ghetsis not thinking so, is actually more befitting of the name than Ghetsis himself!

Noo I just did it again :D

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I'm very glad you're so open to discussion on this subject, though!

Rivvon said:

A lot of fans seem to make sense of the Tao Trio's fusion because they all used to be one singular dragon. Do you feel there's a significance in Kyurem being the one who changes by absorbing another? Or rather, do you think there's any deeper reason for why Reshiram and Zekrom can't fuse with each other, and why all three can't fuse back into the original dragon?

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I assume that Kyurem is meant as the base or vessel and that's why Zekrom and Reshiram can't fuse with each other. They're not 3 equal parts of the original dragon, rather that Kyurem is meant to be filled with them. That Zekrom and Reshiram are simply parts of Kyurem perhaps.

I have always wondered if maybe the unused God Stone found in the coding has anything to do with the original dragon. The twin brothers of Unova used the original Tao Dragon to conquer the region and unite the various warring tribes. The dragon defeated all those armies by itself, so it had to have been exceptionally powerful....maybe almost god-like in power; it could have even been revered by people as a deity in ancient times. But really it's the DNA Splicers for me. Drayden says that it is something that has been passed down in his family for quite some time. I think that perhaps some time in the past, after the dragon split apart but well before the events of Gen V, people wanted to make it whole once again, and maybe the God Stone is what is needed to fuse the 3 of them back together. But the stone was lost, or the were unable to use it, and so they attempted to make a device in its stead, which was the DNA Splicers. But even that wasn't a good enough recreation, and all it was able to do was put one of Zekrom/Reshiram back into Kyurem, but not both, and that's why we still have yet to see the fusion of all three.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nah said:

I assume that Kyurem is meant as the base or vessel and that's why Zekrom and Reshiram can't fuse with each other. They're not 3 equal parts of the original dragon, rather that Kyurem is meant to be filled with them. That Zekrom and Reshiram are simply parts of Kyurem perhaps.

I have always wondered if maybe the unused God Stone found in the coding has anything to do with the original dragon. The twin brothers of Unova used the original Tao Dragon to conquer the region and unite the various warring tribes. The dragon defeated all those armies by itself, so it had to have been exceptionally powerful....maybe almost god-like in power; it could have even been revered by people as a deity in ancient times. But really it's the DNA Splicers for me. Drayden says that it is something that has been passed down in his family for quite some time. I think that perhaps some time in the past, after the dragon split apart but well before the events of Gen V, people wanted to make it whole once again, and maybe the God Stone is what is needed to fuse the 3 of them back together. But the stone was lost, or the were unable to use it, and so they attempted to make a device in its stead, which was the DNA Splicers. But even that wasn't a good enough recreation, and all it was able to do was put one of Zekrom/Reshiram back into Kyurem, but not both, and that's why we still have yet to see the fusion of all three.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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That's a really interesting point. I also always wondered why there was that unused item in the programming of the games--and why its name is the God Stone, of all things, when its used counterparts are the Light and Dark Stones. The God Stone doesn't even have a proper description given to it, just "A rare stone." Compare that to not just its counterparts, but other unused Key Items such as the Azure Flute, which have full descriptions ("A flute that puts out echoing sounds that do not seem to be of this world. It is unknown who made it.")--it makes you wonder what Game Freak intended to do with the item to begin with (maybe it ties in with the original dragon moreso than Kyurem itself?) and how early they decided to scrap the idea.

The theory of the DNA Splicers being an attempt to recreate the original dragon is an interesting one--I like it! I also like that you point out that Kyurem may be intended as a vessel for the other two. It makes sense since it's basically the "shed skin" from when the dragon split apart; a literal hollow shell would work well as a vessel. But that would mean that both Reshiram and Zekrom would have to be put into Kyurem for it to be whole again, wouldn't it? So it does make sense in that regard, that Reshiram and Zekrom are already whole as it stands so they fuse with Kyurem rather than each other. Yin and yang don't seem to mix, either, from what I know!

Bump! Imma post later but let's hear your thoughts on this topic guys!