No Shared Weaknesses - Reattempted

Well, the old thread got locked because (apparently) I was being an ass, so I'm going to try this again and try to be more open to ideas. I also changed the team a bit, requested one like it in that "Request a Team" stickied thread, and a link to this thread will go in my post there as reference.

As per usual, the topic says much. No two Pokémon on my team share even one type weakness, not counting Foresight/Odor Sleuth against Spiritomb. To be honest, I'm not really expecting to see Foresight or Odor Sleuth used at all. Besides that, this team is meant to be as competitive as it can be. The changes I made to this team are to help against entry hazards, Tyranitar, Garchomp, and Salamence.

When posting, please be polite, explain your opinion, and don't just post something stupid like, "Salamence sweeps your team!" This doesn't help me at all, because you didn't state WHY.

Okay, here's the team.

* @ Leftovers; Pressure
Careful; 252 HP, 112 Special Defense, 144 Attack
Sucker Punch
Pain Split
Will-O-Wisp
Taunt

@ Life Orb; Serene Grace
Timid; 252 Special Attack, 176 Special Defense, 80 Speed
Tri Attack
Air Slash
Aura Sphere
Wish

@ Choice Specs; Steadfast
Timid; 4 HP, 252 Speed, 252 Special Attack
Aura Sphere
Psychic
Dark Pulse
Water Pulse

@ Choice Band; Torrent
Adamant; 252 Attack, 252 HP, 4 Defense
Waterfall
Earthquake
Avalanche
Stone Edge

@ Leftovers; Levitate
Bold; 108 Defense, 148 Special Defense, 252 HP
Ice Beam
Charge Beam
Rest
Sleep Talk

@ Leftovers; Intimidate
Impish; 252 HP, 72 Defense, 184 Speed
Close Combat
Stone Edge
Rapid Spin
Toxic

*Leader

Waker of Chaos said:

*

@ Leftovers; Pressure
Careful; 252 HP, 112 Special Defense, 144 Attack uhh might need some speed if used as leader. Don't know exact evs though.
Sucker Punch
Pain Split
Will-O-Wisp
Taunt

Good for a leader.

@ Life Orb; Serene Grace
Timid/Modest; 252 Special Attack, 176 Special Defense, 80 Speed
Tri Attack
Air Slash
Aura Sphere
Wish

Good.

@ Choice Specs; Steadfast
Timid; 4 HP, 252 Speed, 252 Special Attack
Aura Sphere
Psychic
Dark Pulse
Dragon Pulse

Water Pulse is.. not worth it.
Dragon Pulse helps with coverage and is much better.

@ Choice Band/Leftovers; Torrent
Adamant/Impish/Relaxed; 252 Attack, 252 HP, 4 Defense - Needs more Defense.
Waterfall
Earthquake
Avalanche/Curse/Rest
Stone Edge

Physical Wall@Leftovers works better IMO. I prefer to use Mixpert, but this works fine.
If you stick with Choice band, use those EVs.
If you decide to change to Physical wall swap the Attack and Defense and use Impish or Relaxed nature.

@ Leftovers; Levitate
Bold; 108 Defense, 148 Special Defense, 252 HP
Ice Beam
Charge Beam
Rest
Sleep Talk/T-Wave

Fine.

@ Leftovers; Intimidate
Impish; 252 HP, 72 Defense, 184 Speed
Close Combat
Stone Edge
Rapid Spin
Toxic

Changing the order of moves won't help to disguise your smogon set.
Hitmontop isn't the best spinner, with ghosts switching in to stop it, you'd need Pursuit over Stone Edge but then you get screwed by flying pokes.
I say choose a diff spinner. Hitmontops better with the Bulk up set IMO.


*Leader

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Not a bad team. Probably not the greatest rate but it's 2 in the morning here so I'm too tired..

Sk8 said:

Not a bad team. Probably not the greatest rate but it's 2 in the morning here so I'm too tired..

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Well, for now, go to bed. You'll think more clearly when you're wide awake, fed, etc. Then come back and we'll go over this again.

I'm using Hitmontop to keep the theme intact. Donphan and Torkoal both share a weakness with Togekiss (Rock and Ice). I don't know about other good Rapid Spinners except Starmie, who shares the Electric weakness with Togekiss as well. And I wasn't trying to disguise the "Smogon set". I can use Hitmonchan or Hitmonlee instead, since Tyrogue gets Rapid Spin, but Hitmontop gets Intimidate. Though, I could use Bulk Up instead of Toxic here.

Water Pulse is better than Dragon Pulse on a Lucario in my opinion. Sure, it's weaker, but it has that 1/5 chance of confusing, which can screw over any physically-oriented Pokémon. Also, Dragon Pulse is only super effective against Dragons. Water Pulse is super effective against Fire, Ground, and Rock. Two of those Lucario is weak to. Sure, the same can be said for types that resist Dragon Pulse and Water Pulse, but I'd still go with Water Pulse anyway since the types that resist Water Pulse aren't resistant to at least one of Lucario's other moves.

I may keep Swampert the same as it currently is. I need the physical power in case of Blissey or something.

Using Thunder Wave instead of Sleep Talk on this Cresselia is a very bad idea. She'd become dead weight for two turns every time I used Rest.

I'm glad you think this team isn't horrible. It's my first attempt at a competitive team. ^^;

Anyone else?

Waker of Chaos said:

Water Pulse is better than Dragon Pulse on a Lucario in my opinion. Sure, it's weaker, but it has that 1/5 chance of confusing, which can screw over any physically-oriented Pokémon. Also, Dragon Pulse is only super effective against Dragons. Water Pulse is super effective against Fire, Ground, and Rock. Two of those Lucario is weak to. Sure, the same can be said for types that resist Dragon Pulse and Water Pulse, but I'd still go with Water Pulse anyway since the types that resist Water Pulse aren't resistant to at least one of Lucario's other moves.

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You really do need Dragon Pulse, why ? Salamence and Garchomp both are standard switch ins to Lucario and both are more than capable of a ohko.

Water Pulse is really the worst option on Lucario as a STAB'D Aura Sphere will do more even when Water Pulse is super effective and Aura Sphere is not. Also dont rely on a 30% confusion rate and a 50% chance that the opponent will attack itself.

Water Pulse = 60 Base Power super effective *2 = 120 Base Power

Aura Sphere = 90 Base Power and STAB +50% = 135 base power

This alone makes water Pulse redundant.

Dark_Azelf said:

You really do need Dragon Pulse, why ? Salamence and Garchomp both are standard switch ins to Lucario and both are more than capable of a ohko.

Water Pulse is really the worst option on Lucario as a STAB'D Aura Sphere will do more even when Water Pulse is super effective and Aura Sphere is not. Also dont rely on a 30% confusion rate and a 50% chance that the opponent will attack itself.

Water Pulse = 60 Base Power super effective *2 = 120 Base Power

Aura Sphere = 90 Base Power and STAB +50% = 135 base power

This alone makes water Pulse redundant.

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Couldn't I just switch to Cresselia, who has Ice Beam?

Itachi 2007 said:

You won't be OHKO'ing them, though. Not with 75 Base Special Attack anyways...

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True, but it'll force them to be a bit more careful with their Dragons. Besides, I also have Swampert's Avalanche and Hitmontop's Intimidate and Stone Edge (against Salamence). Therefore, it seems to me that Dragon Pulse on Lucario is also redundant.

Waker of Chaos said:

True, but it'll force them to be a bit more careful with their Dragons. Besides, I also have Swampert's Avalanche and Hitmontop's Intimidate and Stone Edge (against Salamence). Therefore, it seems to me that Dragon Pulse on Lucario is also redundant.

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Stone edge? that doesn't fit in, does it? ._. Avalanche fits in, though. Dragon Pulse IS, however, good. In-case the other one dies (Swampert.) And most Teams who are prepared for it, (though, It's not as good as it was), Are packing Energy Ball/Grass Knot. Dragon Pulse is good on Lucario, overall. But one thing bothered me:

When posting, please be polite, explain your opinion, and don't just post something stupid like, "Salamence sweeps your team!"

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You are right, but most people here explain what it Sweepers, nothing more. Because you're likely to get a counter for the Dragon of doom. But you're right on the first part, however. And it does have way good defenses, (because It's Legendary, mostly. A good one too). And it has Reflect and Light Screen.. Which gives me an idea..

Forry is a great spinner in place of Hitmontop.
Forget the theme for a minute, and hear me out.

The fire weakness may give you another one to add to Lucario's, but it shouldn't matter.
You just predict the special fire moves and switch to Cresselia,
and predict the physical fire moves and switch to Swampy.

Edit: Helps for a Dragon Counter too. :)

Sk8 said:

Forry is a great spinner in place of Hitmontop.
Forget the theme for a minute, and hear me out.

The fire weakness may give you another one to add to Lucario's, but it shouldn't matter.
You just predict the special fire moves and switch to Cresselia,
and predict the physical fire moves and switch to Swampy.

Edit: Helps for a Dragon Counter too. :)

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Forretress is indeed a great Rapid Spinner, and your strategy is very good. It's just that I hate breaking themes, that's all. See, I play Yu-Gi-Oh! a bit as well, and it really bugs me when someone uses Cyber Dragon, Raiza the Storm Monarch, and Destiny Hero - Dasher in the same Deck. That's three themes right there, even though there's only one strategy, which just doesn't seem right to me. I try to apply the same thing to Pokémon, so that it doesn't become as annoying. Nothing against you or anything, that's just how I think. As such, I'm really hesitant on using Forretress instead of Hitmontop.

As for the Dragon thing, you're right, except that this is a defensive counter, and I don't think Forretress is very good at actually attacking.

Itachi 2007 said:

Stone edge? that doesn't fit in, does it? ._. Avalanche fits in, though. Dragon Pulse IS, however, good. In-case the other one dies (Swampert.) And most Teams who are prepared for it, (though, It's not as good as it was), Are packing Energy Ball/Grass Knot. Dragon Pulse is good on Lucario, overall. But one thing bothered me:

You are right, but most people here explain what it Sweepers, nothing more. Because you're likely to get a counter for the Dragon of doom. But you're right on the first part, however. And it does have way good defenses, (because It's Legendary, mostly. A good one too). And it has Reflect and Light Screen.. Which gives me an idea..

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Stone Edge, being a Rock attack, hits four types with super effective damage. While it may not cover the Grass weakness, it does at least cover plenty of types. That's why it's there.

I'm not saying Dragon Pulse isn't better than Water Pulse. I'm just saying that Water Pulse looks more useful to me than Dragon Pulse, since it has that confusing side effect and Dragon Pulse does only damage, plus the type weakness thing I posted earlier. Think about it: Most people would expect Aura Sphere coming and switch to a Ghost or Flying, right? But then I used Water Pulse instead, score a neutral hit at least, and maybe confuse.

While it may not cover the Grass weakness

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WTF? I didn't say anything about a Grass Weakness. And I don't need a quote to figure that out. Read again, please... Goodness..

Itachi 2007 said:

WTF? I didn't say anything about a Grass Weakness. And I don't need a quote to figure that out. Read again, please... Goodness..

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You missed the point. I was only explaining why Stone Edge was there, while also slightly comparing it to Avalanche, since you did as well.

Please take the following post not as trying to be annoying, but as an honest attempt to help.

This theme is just no. The theme "no shared weaks" isn't going to get you anywhere. What is WAY more important is resistances and being able to switch into attacks. It's just easier to build a team that way and a lot more beneficial.

That being said, the team isn't too bad. the real problem is the lack of sweeping power. Lucario is the onlysweeper I see, swampert if you don't care about speed, but both rely on choice items and are outsped by many common sweepers and will have trouble switching in. Actually, I take that back. Lucario has a truckload of useful resistances and swampert is a great rock resist, I just don't know how effectively they can inflict damage. I see skarmbliss giving this team some trouble if they outpredict you. Then again, you could say that baout a lot of things :P

Hitmontop would be best replaced with starmie. I know it breaks the theme, but that theme isn't helping you-it's holding you back.

Anti-Pop Culture Warrior 13 said:

Please take the following post not as trying to be annoying, but as an honest attempt to help.

This theme is just no. The theme "no shared weaks" isn't going to get you anywhere. What is WAY more important is resistances and being able to switch into attacks. It's just easier to build a team that way and a lot more beneficial.

That being said, the team isn't too bad. the real problem is the lack of sweeping power. Lucario is the onlysweeper I see, swampert if you don't care about speed, but both rely on choice items and are outsped by many common sweepers and will have trouble switching in. Actually, I take that back. Lucario has a truckload of useful resistances and swampert is a great rock resist, I just don't know how effectively they can inflict damage. I see skarmbliss giving this team some trouble if they outpredict you. Then again, you could say that baout a lot of things :P

Hitmontop would be best replaced with starmie. I know it breaks the theme, but that theme isn't helping you-it's holding you back.

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Admittedly, this is my first team. There's bound to be mistakes. However, I never said it'll be my only team, so let's keep this one's theme intact. No offense taken. ^^

While I admit Starmie's a better Rapid Spinner than Hitmontop, using Starmie would break the theme (as you stated), because of the shared Electric weakness with Togekiss and Dark weakness with Cresselia. I'll have other teams in addition to this one, so I won't use Starmie here, but don't worry too much about this team holding me back.

Togekiss acts as a special tank, since he can dish hits out and take them, even though he isn't all that fast. I've already raised him and Lucario, so I can only change moves and EVs there (preferably not moves, as I've already used PP Ups on the ones listed). Wish is to help with the Life Orb's recoil, as well as aid my other Pokémon. The 80 Speed EVs might not be enough, that's true, but that's not to say Togekiss can't sweep.

Waker of Chaos said:

Admittedly, this is my first team. There's bound to be mistakes. However, I never said it'll be my only team, so let's keep this one's theme intact. No offense taken. ^^

While I admit Starmie's a better Rapid Spinner than Hitmontop, using Starmie would break the theme (as you stated), because of the shared Electric weakness with Togekiss and Dark weakness with Cresselia. I'll have other teams in addition to this one, so I won't use Starmie here, but don't worry too much about this team holding me back.

lol, I was thinking of sharing grass with swampert and didn't notice the other two :P

Togekiss acts as a special tank, since he can dish hits out and take them, even though he isn't all that fast. I've already raised him and Lucario, so I can only change moves and EVs there (preferably not moves, as I've already used PP Ups on the ones listed). Wish is to help with the Life Orb's recoil, as well as aid my other Pokémon. The 80 Speed EVs might not be enough, that's true, but that's not to say Togekiss can't sweep.

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Togekiss can't sweep with your spread. It can dish out hits, but that and sweeping are two different things 9in my eyes, lots of people have different views on that).

If you want to keep the theme intact, I have ways to use it more effectively (since I ran a team like this years ago and I actually recovered the file it was saved on :0)

First, you'll want to find good pokemon that have only one weakness, then good ones with two weaks. Look for good combos and crap to gel a team together. Electric types are great for these teams, and Forry and swampert were always staples for mine. Normal tpyes are also good, and a cleric like blissey wouldn't hurt, since this team can't take status to save its life. Cressi can, but that's it.

I don't see why you are using Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball unless it's for the flinch chance. Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere cover everything in the game. But that's my two cents.

Anti-Pop Culture Warrior 13 said:

Togekiss can't sweep with your spread. It can dish out hits, but that and sweeping are two different things 9in my eyes, lots of people have different views on that).

If you want to keep the theme intact, I have ways to use it more effectively (since I ran a team like this years ago and I actually recovered the file it was saved on :0)

First, you'll want to find good pokemon that have only one weakness, then good ones with two weaks. Look for good combos and crap to gel a team together. Electric types are great for these teams, and Forry and swampert were always staples for mine. Normal tpyes are also good, and a cleric like blissey wouldn't hurt, since this team can't take status to save its life. Cressi can, but that's it.

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Ahh, now there's an idea... Remember this team's last lineup? I had Alakazam and Kingdra/Palkia, and everyone was telling me, "DON'T USE PALKIA!"

Hmm... Well, I've already raised Lucario and Togekiss, so I'd have to use them for something, though not necessarily this team...

Also, let me guess. A "sweeper" needs really high Speed, right? I figure as long as it can take down a few Pokémon while surviving on its own, it's a sweeper, but that's just me. I consider my Togekiss a special tank, given that I boosted the Special Defense stat.

Toodlies said:

I don't see why you are using Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball unless it's for the flinch chance. Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere cover everything in the game. But that's my two cents.

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Yes, it's for the chance of making the foe flinch. I figured that would be a better advantage than lowering the foe's Special Defense. However, bringing up that two moves can hit everything for at least neutral damage gives me an idea. It's possible for me to use Shadow Ball over Dark Pulse (it would mean I wasted Heart Scale though), after all.

Toodlies said:

I don't see why you are using Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball unless it's for the flinch chance. Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere cover everything in the game. But that's my two cents.

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No they don't there are multiple flaws in what you just said.

Water, Dragon, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Poison, and Ground aren't covered. There are probably more but I can't think of them right now.

ultranerd57 said:

No they don't there are multiple flaws in what you just said.

Water, Dragon, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Poison, and Ground aren't covered. There are probably more but I can't think of them right now.

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No, he means for neutral or better, not super effective or better.

Well, Kingdra was a staple for my team actually :P It's great for this kind of theme. also, things with stuff like flash fire and volt absorb will come in handy a lot. I ran arcanine and forry and it was deadly.

So things like that will help. and sweepers BTW don't necessarily need 50000000000 speed, they just need to be able to outspeed most any wall and outspeeding other sweepers is nice too.