Legendary Pokémon ~ Fact or Fiction?

GhastlyGastly

GhastlyGastly

Crazy Pokémon Lady
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    Alright, so everyone who has played a Pokémon game or seen any of the Pokémon movies knows about so-called 'legendary' Pokémon. But just what do we really know about legendary Pokémon? Many of us have seen, and even captured 'legendaries'; surely there is little more to know about them, right? They are very rare, very powerful Pokémon. Some even say that each species of legendary Pokémon is one-of-a-kind: that only a single individual exists in the entire world. The Pokédex entries for legendary Pokémon often make reference to legends which claim extraordinary powers, such as command of time and space, the creation of entire oceans, continents, or even the origin of the entire universe. But what evidence really exists towards these fantastical claims? (I'll note here that if you adhere to the plotlines of the Pokémon films strictly, my speculations here will likely be moot; I personally consider the plots of the Pokémon movies, while entertaining, largely apocryphal and non-canonical, with the exception of the first and second (and possibly third).)

    Let us begin with basic definitions. What defines a 'legendary' Pokémon? What makes a 'legendary' legendary? There have been many conflicting definitions, ranging from Pokémon which are extremely rare to any which are featured in folklore. Personally, I prefer the latter definition: legendary Pokémon, I believe, are most elegantly described as Pokémon which are featured in the legends and mythology of any given culture. Some Pokémon deemed 'legendary' by one culture may not be in another (for example, the Generation I Pokédex entries for Arcanine clearly note that it is thought of as a legendary Pokémon in China; though it is not explicitly referred to as legendary by other sources).

    In the original Japanese materials, three distinct terms are used to refer to the Pokémon which are grouped together as 'legendary' in other sources. The first is densetsu no Pokémon, or "Pokémon of legend": Pokémon which are featured in many legends (e.g., Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza). The second is maboroshi no Pokémon, or "illusory/mirage Pokémon": Pokémon which are effectively equivalent to the 'cryptids' of cryptozoology, creatures which, if they exist at all, are so rare and/or poorly-documented that most people are reasonably skeptical of their existence. The third term used is shinwa no Pokémon, meaning literally "Pokémon of myth": Pokémon which hold prominent places in mythology.

    But what, then, is the truth behind these 'legendary' Pokémon? Are we really to believe that Pokémon such as Celebi and Dialga can control time at will, or that Arceus created the universe?

    I posit, quite simply: NO.

    Though I find that most simply adhere to the mythos constructed around these Pokémon, with Pokémon such as Dialga, Palkia, Arceus, Groundon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, etc., being treated (quite literally) like deities. And indeed, this is precisely what the legends tell us, as recorded in the Pokédex and other sources. But are they true? To be sure, Arceus, for example, is a powerful Pokémon; but hardly a god amongst other Pokémon. Arceus is just as capable of being poisoned, paralyzed, burned, running out of PP, or fainting as any other Pokémon. Nor are its attacks particularly mighty in comparison to a Pokémon of comparable level and training. Clearly, unless Arceus and the other 'legendaries' are deliberately withholding their true, divine powers, then I can say little more than: they are suspiciously... mortal.

    The legends which give us the 'legendary' Pokémon, I propose, are just that: legends. There may indeed be kernels of truth in each, but they are exaggerated nonetheless. Mew may be rare (so rare that it qualifies as an 'illusory Pokémon', and borders on cryptid status), but it is known to exist, given genetic traces are documented. Arcanine is a legendary Pokémon in China, according to the Pokédex, due to its place in folklore; it is not, however, 'legendary' in other areas, with different folkloric traditions. Kyogre and Groudon may be very powerful, rare Pokémon, which were held as the creators of sea and land, respectively, in legend; this is hardly any different from Arcanine. Kyogre and Groudon, whether or not they created the land and sea (I do not believe they did), are given that position in folklore, hence this description in the Pokédex and other materials. Dialga and Palkia may, indeed, possess immense power; perhaps their Dragon-type attacks were of such power that they were thought to command space and time. Nonetheless, it is made clear in all available sources that these tales are mythological; in all probability, I suggest that they are just that. Tales of rare Pokémon with great powers, which were incorporated into the mythology of their regions. Dialga and Palkia have no control over spacetime, and Arceus did not create the universe; Groudon and Kyogre did not create the land and sea, and Ho-oh did not resurrect Suicune, Entei, and Raikou. Whatever basis in truth they may have, these, I believe, are simply myths.

    I could go on, but more specific hypotheses of mine would probably be best left for another thread. Anyway... thoughts, anyone?
     
    :O Now, THAT was worth reading. That question will really make people think... Although the Pokemon World is pretty advanced, I still feel curious on how humans actually created a Master Ball that could even capture Arceus, the Pokemon that was assumed to be the 'Creator of all Pokemon'. Perhaps they could HAVE done it, but they would need to find some weak spot on Arceus first. That would be almost impossible seeing as I don't remember Arceus going into a Pokemon lab to be treated as some sort of alien. Groudon and Kyogre would need an extremely large Master Ball to be captured. Ho-oh and Lugia don't seem to leave Navel Rock in the E/R/S series. Regice, Registeel, and Regirock are sealed away in a chamber and I don't even have a single clue on where Regigigas is. I'll have to say that this thread really got me thinking :)
     
    This is the same conclusion some people end up with about religion a bit. How people interpreted things in the past are different how we interpret things now in this scientific age.

    Bla bla... :)
     
    Whistler said:
    This is the same conclusion some people end up with about religion a bit. How people interpreted things in the past are different how we interpret things now in this scientific age.

    Bla bla... :)
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    Well, I do happen to be one of those people. So...
     
    Personally, I think the answer is yes AND no.

    The Pokedex entries for Legendary Pokemon seem to take a factual statement about them, and throwing in a myth to confuse you. Therefore, you're left on your own to try to figure out exactly how much of that information is credible. (Ex. Arceus created the universe with its 1000 arms. Which part do we know is exaggerated?)

    Mew (as a fact) can learn any move not restricted to certain Pokemon. But the legend is that its DNA contains the genetic code of EVERY Pokemon, and therefore could be the ancestor of all Pokemon. Where is the evidence to back up the ancestor claim? ...nowhere. No in-game text or characters ever mention this, nor do the movies (if you count them) ever state Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon. So while we do know of its giant moveset, we don't know if that is in fact why it has said giant moveset.
     
    This was such an interesting read. Very well written, and insightful. And I too believe the Pokedex entries are myths. There are no facts in the games to back up these claims.
     
    voicerocker said:
    Personally, I think the answer is yes AND no.

    The Pokedex entries for Legendary Pokemon seem to take a factual statement about them, and throwing in a myth to confuse you. Therefore, you're left on your own to try to figure out exactly how much of that information is credible. (Ex. Arceus created the universe with its 1000 arms. Which part do we know is exaggerated?)

    Mew (as a fact) can learn any move not restricted to certain Pokemon. But the legend is that its DNA contains the genetic code of EVERY Pokemon, and therefore could be the ancestor of all Pokemon. Where is the evidence to back up the ancestor claim? ...nowhere. No in-game text or characters ever mention this, nor do the movies (if you count them) ever state Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon. So while we do know of its giant moveset, we don't know if that is in fact why it has said giant moveset.
    Click to expand...

    You make a fair point. However, using the example of Arceus, it's Pokédex entries state:

    D ~ It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms.
    P ~ It is told in mythology that this Pokémon was born before the universe even existed.
    HG/SS ~ According to the legends of Sinnoh, this Pokémon emerged from an egg and shaped all there is in this world.

    The context of the sentences seems to strongly indicate that all which is described in the entries is Sinnoh mythology. There is no evidence that Arceus has one-thousand arms, nor that it created the universe, nor that it existed before the universe, etc., etc.

    In the case of Mew, true, no source authoritatively states that Mew is the ancestor of all Pokémon, but nevertheless, its Pokédex entries still make clear that based on its ability to learn all non-exclusive moves, it may be the ancestor of Pokémon. It is made clear that this is what scientists who study it believe. It is stated unambiguously to contain the DNA of all Pokémon (or, more precisely, I believe that it contains the building blocks of Pokémon genetics, which are found in all known Pokémon; this would also include extraterrestrials such as Deoxys, thus implying that Mew can be found on other planets, which is not implausible considering that Mew has been depicted as being capable of surviving in outer space).

    I would actually expect to find that Mew would be incapable of learning certain exclusive moves; it may be the ancestor of Pokémon, and thus has a vast movepool which comprises virtually all Pokémon attacks, however, certain Pokémon descended from it would be very likely to adapt in specific ways, and to gain genetic mutations not present in Mew which would allow them to possess exclusive moves.

    I agree that there may indeed be kernels of truth in the myths about legendary Pokémon, but that does not change the fact that, for example, their Pokédex descriptions are overtly noted as recording legends and folklore about them, not necessarily the reality of them. I maintain that myths, even myths about Pokémon, should be viewed skeptically and weighed against evidence; at present, very little evidence exists to support many of the allegations made about legendary Pokémon.
     
    I just want to correct you both on Mew's ability to learn attacks. Mew can only learn all TMs and HMs and Move Tutors. Mew however has a pretty large list of attacks it cannot learn.

    Mew cannot learn the basic attacks Scratch, Tackle, Growl or Tail Whip, nor a large variety of Elemental attacks such as Ember, Water Gun, Thunder shock, etc.

    Mew's ability to learn "All/every attack(s)" is greatly exaggerated. There are currently 95 TMs, 6 HMs (Gen 5 only has 6 despite others having 8), and as of Gen 5, 60 Move tutors, bringing the total number of attacks Mew can learn added to its own 13 Level up attacks, to 174 Moves out of a total of 559 Moves. Mew can in actuality only learn 31% of all the moves known in the Pokemon World.
     
    XanderO said:
    I just want to correct you both on Mew's ability to learn attacks. Mew can only learn all TMs and HMs and Move Tutors. Mew however has a pretty large list of attacks it cannot learn.

    Mew cannot learn the basic attacks Scratch, Tackle, Growl or Tail Whip, nor a large variety of Elemental attacks such as Ember, Water Gun, Thunder shock, etc.

    Mew's ability to learn "All/every attack(s)" is greatly exaggerated. There are currently 95 TMs, 6 HMs (Gen 5 only has 6 despite others having 8), and as of Gen 5, 60 Move tutors, bringing the total number of attacks Mew can learn added to its own 13 Level up attacks, to 174 Moves out of a total of 559 Moves. Mew can in actuality only learn 31% of all the moves known in the Pokemon World.
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    An excellent point XanderO.
     
    See, the problem with the theory that everything is a myth is the events of the games. Take Sinnoh, for example. When you finally meet Dialga / Palkia, they're using their powers over time / space to alter the Sinnoh region. And then the Lake Trio stops it, and so on. It's hard to believe that all the pokémon involved in that event were just regular, but powerful pokémon. There's clearly at least some truth to the myth.

    Really the legends in the games are very, very contradictory. There is evidence to support the myths, and yet you can capture the pokémon that shaped the universe in a spherical piece of metal. Personally I just try not to think about it - when it comes to the legends it's best to not try to rationalise.

    XanderO said:
    I just want to correct you both on Mew's ability to learn attacks. Mew can only learn all TMs and HMs and Move Tutors. Mew however has a pretty large list of attacks it cannot learn.

    Mew cannot learn the basic attacks Scratch, Tackle, Growl or Tail Whip, nor a large variety of Elemental attacks such as Ember, Water Gun, Thunder shock, etc.

    Mew's ability to learn "All/every attack(s)" is greatly exaggerated. There are currently 95 TMs, 6 HMs (Gen 5 only has 6 despite others having 8), and as of Gen 5, 60 Move tutors, bringing the total number of attacks Mew can learn added to its own 13 Level up attacks, to 174 Moves out of a total of 559 Moves. Mew can in actuality only learn 31% of all the moves known in the Pokemon World.
    Click to expand...

    But the reason it can't learn those moves is because we don't have access to them, surely. I think the fact that it can't learn non-TM/HM/tutor moves that aren't in its learnset signifies us being unable to teach it those moves, rather than it being incapable of learning them if it wanted to.
     
    François said:
    See, the problem with the theory that everything is a myth is the events of the games. Take Sinnoh, for example. When you finally meet Dialga / Palkia, they're using their powers over time / space to alter the Sinnoh region. And then the Lake Trio stops it, and so on. It's hard to believe that all the pokémon involved in that event were just regular, but powerful pokémon. There's clearly at least some truth to the myth.

    Really the legends in the games are very, very contradictory. There is evidence to support the myths, and yet you can capture the pokémon that shaped the universe in a spherical piece of metal. Personally I just try not to think about it - when it comes to the legends it's best to not try to rationalise.
    Click to expand...

    A fair point, but to be pedantic, I'm afraid I will still rationalize the situation you have brought up. I would argue that Palkia, Dialga, and the Lake Trio were not in fact warping spacetime or altering Sinnoh in quite the way as was described. I should think that if Dialga, for instance, were actually warping time, wouldn't you, if you flew to Twinleaf Town, maybe wind up in a pre-settlement forest? Or maybe a future, destroyed town? Or an expanded metropolis? Wouldn't one expect to see some actual distortion of spacetime, if it were indeed being distorted? If Palkia could warp space, would it be unreasonable to expect that you could walk from Lake Verity to Jubilife City in only a few steps? Or perhaps the opposite: no matter how many steps you take, you will never reach it? Sure, it is said that Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf negate the powers of Dialga and Palkia somehow, buying you time to capture them, but that sounds suspiciously... convenient. It all just sounds to me like these miraculous powers aren't actually... doing anything. It sounds a bit more like the denizens of Sinnoh are merely interpreting, based on their mythology, what is happening. I see virtually no evidence at all that Dialga and Palkia can actually warp spacetime.
     
    I may be misremembering (I'd watch a video but my internet refuses to co-operate) but I do believe that Dialga and Palkia only activate their powers for a very brief period before the Lake Trio put a stop to it. From what I remember of Diamond, at least (never finished Platinum), it just showed Sinnoh covered in weird magical lights for a few seconds and went right back into the action atop Mt. Coronet. For all we know, people were walking from Lake Verity to Jubilife City in only a few steps! It is admittedly rather unbelievable that the Lake Trio inexplicably negate them but there's no more logical explanation for them stopping for no particular reason so I kind of just believe it, really. I can see your problem with believing it but for me it's very much a case of not seeing any more likely explanation so accepting the one that's offered.
     
    GhastlyGastly said:
    You make a fair point. However, using the example of Arceus, it's Pokédex entries state:

    D ~ It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms.
    P ~ It is told in mythology that this Pokémon was born before the universe even existed.
    HG/SS ~ According to the legends of Sinnoh, this Pokémon emerged from an egg and shaped all there is in this world.

    The context of the sentences seems to strongly indicate that all which is described in the entries is Sinnoh mythology. There is no evidence that Arceus has one-thousand arms, nor that it created the universe, nor that it existed before the universe, etc., etc.
    Click to expand...


    Actually, there are various things that suggest Arceus could very well have created the universe, though it does require filling in extra blanks as well.

    1. Arceus has the hightest BST of 720, giving it the title of "strongest" Pokemon. (The "creation" Pokemon surely would need to be the strongest of all.)
    2. Sinjoh Ruins. This event proves Arceus possesses the power to create Dialga, Palkia and Giratina.
    3. Hall of Origin. This is Arceus's own realm, above Sinnoh. Seems like the perfect place for a creator that is god-like.
    4. Multitype. Arceus can become any type of Pokemon.

    Though these things don't specifically spell out "first Pokemon" or "created the universe", they do suggest Arceus isn't just a normal Pokemon.


    GhastlyGastly said:
    I agree that there may indeed be kernels of truth in the myths about legendary Pokémon, but that does not change the fact that, for example, their Pokédex descriptions are overtly noted as recording legends and folklore about them, not necessarily the reality of them. I maintain that myths, even myths about Pokémon, should be viewed skeptically and weighed against evidence; at present, very little evidence exists to support many of the allegations made about legendary Pokémon.
    Click to expand...
    The only Legendary Pokemon that have totally crazy powers and myths are Sinnoh's. Groudon and Kyogre supposedly created Hoenn, but they're Pokemon of the earth and water. "Creating" Hoenn could have simply been a byproduct of their giant fight from ages ago.

    François said:
    Really the legends in the games are very, very contradictory. There is evidence to support the myths, and yet you can capture the pokémon that shaped the universe in a spherical piece of metal. Personally I just try not to think about it - when it comes to the legends it's best to not try to rationalise.
    Click to expand...

    Remember this. Even if Arceus is the creator of the Pokemon universe, it is still a Pokemon, just like any other. (only MUCH stronger!) Capturing it is not impossible.

    GhastlyGastly said:
    A fair point, but to be pedantic, I'm afraid I will still rationalize the situation you have brought up. I would argue that Palkia, Dialga, and the Lake Trio were not in fact warping spacetime or altering Sinnoh in quite the way as was described. I should think that if Dialga, for instance, were actually warping time, wouldn't you, if you flew to Twinleaf Town, maybe wind up in a pre-settlement forest? Or maybe a future, destroyed town? Or an expanded metropolis? Wouldn't one expect to see some actual distortion of spacetime, if it were indeed being distorted? If Palkia could warp space, would it be unreasonable to expect that you could walk from Lake Verity to Jubilife City in only a few steps? Or perhaps the opposite: no matter how many steps you take, you will never reach it? Sure, it is said that Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf negate the powers of Dialga and Palkia somehow, buying you time to capture them, but that sounds suspiciously... convenient. It all just sounds to me like these miraculous powers aren't actually... doing anything. It sounds a bit more like the denizens of Sinnoh are merely interpreting, based on their mythology, what is happening. I see virtually no evidence at all that Dialga and Palkia can actually warp spacetime.
    Click to expand...

    You forgot one very important thing: the Distortion World. Cynthia states in Platinum that the Distortion World is a demension where space is distorted and time does not flow. (and Cynthia has been studying the 3 Sinnoh dragons for years) I also doubt that GameFreak would specifically state that Dialga and Palkia can warp time/space and it not be true. Celebi has been confirmed to possess the ability to travel in time thanks to the event in HG/SS which takes us to a battle with Giovanni as he prepares to return to Team Rocket in Johto.

    Dialga's Roar of Time and Palkia's Spacial Rend are described as moves that can distort time and space. This has been proven in the games (including spinoffs), manga, and the anime. Even in Super Smash Bros. Brawl Dialga can slow down time, and Palkia can flip the screen, turn it upside-down, and change the gravity of the stage.

    I just don't think GameFreak would say "it CAN do this" or "this IS happening the way we're saying" and it not be so.
     
    François said:
    I may be misremembering (I'd watch a video but my internet refuses to co-operate) but I do believe that Dialga and Palkia only activate their powers for a very brief period before the Lake Trio put a stop to it. From what I remember of Diamond, at least (never finished Platinum), it just showed Sinnoh covered in weird magical lights for a few seconds and went right back into the action atop Mt. Coronet. For all we know, people were walking from Lake Verity to Jubilife City in only a few steps! It is admittedly rather unbelievable that the Lake Trio inexplicably negate them but there's no more logical explanation for them stopping for no particular reason so I kind of just believe it, really. I can see your problem with believing it but for me it's very much a case of not seeing any more likely explanation so accepting the one that's offered.
    Click to expand...

    'Weird magical lights' would hardly be evidence of spacetime warpage for me, however; attacks like Signal Beam, Flash Cannon, and frankly, virtually all Psychic-type attacks can create mysterious luminance. This may indeed have been on a huge scale, but that would likely coincide with the power of the attack and the attackers. Or, for instance, it could very well have been another instance of the aurora-like phenomenon which appeared over Kanto and Johto in the second Pokémon film, with the natural chaos which was breaking out due to the tensions between the Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres. I see the events witnessed in Sinnoh during the awakening of Dialga and Palkia as a comparable scene. I see no evidence that people were walking across the region in two steps, nor wandering backward in time; we are not given any reason to suspect that these sorts of phenomena were occurring. And as for Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf 'negating' Dialga and Palkia's powers, the first thing that comes to mind is an extremely simple explanation: Endure, Protect, and Detect.

    Mesprit learns Protect, Uxie learns Endure, and Azelf learns Detect; if they used these moves while Dialga / Palkia were using their attack (presumably Roar of Time / Spatial Rend), they could have very briefly prevented its use, thereby buying you enough time to battle and/or capture it.

    voicerocker said:
    [/FONT][/SIZE]

    Actually, there are various things that suggest Arceus could very well have created the universe, though it does require filling in extra blanks as well.

    1. Arceus has the hightest BST of 720, giving it the title of "strongest" Pokemon. (The "creation" Pokemon surely would need to be the strongest of all.)
    2. Sinjoh Ruins. This event proves Arceus possesses the power to create Dialga, Palkia and Giratina.
    3. Hall of Origin. This is Arceus's own realm, above Sinnoh. Seems like the perfect place for a creator that is god-like.
    4. Multitype. Arceus can become any type of Pokemon.

    Though these things don't specifically spell out "first Pokemon" or "created the universe", they do suggest Arceus isn't just a normal Pokemon.




    The only Legendary Pokemon that have totally crazy powers and myths are Sinnoh's. Groudon and Kyogre supposedly created Hoenn, but they're Pokemon of the earth and water. "Creating" Hoenn could have simply been a byproduct of their giant fight from ages ago.



    Remember this. Even if Arceus is the creator of the Pokemon universe, it is still a Pokemon, just like any other. (only MUCH stronger!) Capturing it is not impossible.



    You forgot one very important thing: the Distortion World. Cynthia states in Platinum that the Distortion World is a demension where space is distorted and time does not flow. (and Cynthia has been studying the 3 Sinnoh dragons for years) I also doubt that GameFreak would specifically state that Dialga and Palkia can warp time/space and it not be true. Celebi has been confirmed to possess the ability to travel in time thanks to the event in HG/SS which takes us to a battle with Giovanni as he prepares to return to Team Rocket in Johto.

    Dialga's Roar of Time and Palkia's Spacial Rend are described as moves that can distort time and space. This has been proven in the games (including spinoffs), manga, and the anime. Even in Super Smash Bros. Brawl Dialga can slow down time, and Palkia can flip the screen, turn it upside-down, and change the gravity of the stage.

    I just don't think GameFreak would say "it CAN do this" or "this IS happening the way we're saying" and it not be so.
    Click to expand...


    Arceus may indeed have the highest known base stat total of all Pokémon, but this hardly places it at a godlike status; one could have said the same of Mewtwo or Rayquaza, when they held the highest BST totals, at 680. I hardly think that the Sinjoh ruins 'prove' Arceus' ability to 'create' the Creation and Lake Trios. However, I will note the connections between Arceus and the Unown; while I am not necessarily convinced that Arceus has the power to create things from thin air, it is a well-established fact, explored deeply in the third Pokémon movie, that Unown have the power to make dreams into reality; this, in my mind, is a much more cogent explanation of Sinjoh, etc. Also, they may have a hand in the Distortion Realm, given it is made clear that the Unown are indigenous to a mysterious alternate dimension from which they can come and go at will. (As a pedantic note, I will say that the Distortion Realm clearly possesses time: or else nothing could possibly move within it. It may indeed be affected by a bizarre form of physics that we are unfamiliar with, but time, in some form, clearly acts upon it.)

    The Hall of Origin, I would argue, is also very like the Distortion Realm and/or Sinjoh Ruins and/or the Unown's dimension. Yes, Arceus can become any type, but that is hardly unique: Genesect and Kecleon are two others I can immediately think of.

    Arceus is indeed a powerful Pokémon, perhaps even one of the most powerful; but that certainly doesn't imply it created the universe. I would wager that if any Pokémon created the universe, Unown is the only one which has had its creative powers fully established. I also don't know for sure that Game Freak has outright stated what you claim; the Pokédex entries of Dialga and Palkia contradict each other on the matter of their powers, with some claiming they are mythical, some seeming to declare them matter-of-factly. In any case, the only means of reconciling these discrepancies which I could convince myself of is a mythological/religious one: the Pokédex entries for them were made in Sinnoh, the people of which are almost entirely influenced by the religion/folkloric tradition of the myths which describe Arceus, etc. Religious people often speak of their deity in absolutes (i.e., God can control time; God created the universe; etc.). Dialga and Palkia are explicitly stated to be deities in ancient Sinnoh religion/mythology. It only makes sense that some Pokédex entries would reflect these religious views, given the region in which they were made (and half of the Generation IV Pokédex entries state very clearly that those claims were mythological). (It is notable that the Unova Pokédex entries are not at all straightforward in prescribing powers to Dialga and Palkia.)
     
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    GhastlyGastly said:
    Arceus may indeed have the highest known base stat total of all Pokémon, but this hardly places it at a godlike status; one could have said the same of Mewtwo or Rayquaza, when they held the highest BST totals, at 680.
    Click to expand...


    At the end of the day, Pokemon is just a video game. If they're going to introduce a Pokemon for the games, they have to make sure it isn't overpowered beyond any hope of defeating it. 720 may not look like much from a realistic view, but they have to keep the programming fair.

    GhastlyGastly said:
    I hardly think that the Sinjoh ruins 'prove' Arceus' ability to 'create' the Creation and Lake Trios. However, I will note the connections between Arceus and the Unown; while I am not necessarily convinced that Arceus has the power to create things from thin air, it is a well-established fact, explored deeply in the third Pokémon movie, that Unown have the power to make dreams into reality; this, in my mind, is a much more cogent explanation of Sinjoh, etc.
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    Arceus clearly creates a dragon in that event. Cynthia explains the whole thing.:

    "Arceus has accepted you as a Trainer. Arceus, having shaped the world, is said to show you a glimpse of its true power. The power of possibly making life appear out of nothing..." " The Unown can twist reality, as show in the 3rd movie, however, those are illusions and are temporary. (Such as the girl Molly aging and her super Pokemon). My own personal theory on this is that the Unown are Arceus's on power manifested as Pokemon (possibly as a result of the "Big Bang" of that universe? or perhaps to keep its own massive power in check?) And since the stage in the Sinjoh Ruins was built specifically for Arceus and the Unown appear when it is on the stage, that could very well explain why Arceus would be able to produce a real legendary dragon from nothing, meaning Arceus can access the Unown's powers.

    GhastlyGastly said:
    Also, they may have a hand in the Distortion Realm, given it is made clear that the Unown are indigenous to a mysterious alternate dimension from which they can come and go at will. (As a pedantic note, I will say that the Distortion Realm clearly possesses time: or else nothing could possibly move within it. It may indeed be affected by a bizarre form of physics that we are unfamiliar with, but time, in some form, clearly acts upon it.)
    Click to expand...

    The only problem with that is that Giratina is supposed to be the sole living creature to exist in the Distortion World. The Unown probably have their own realm. Another of my own theories is that the Unown may serve as the "building blocks" of reality for the Pokemon world. In the Darkrai movie, every time Dialga and Palkia would strike each other with an attack, several Unown are seen being blown away by the shockwaves. This appears to be the result of time and space being distorted from the battle, which later causes the pollution of the Distortion World in the Shaymin movie.

    As for whether or not time does flow in the Distortion World, Cynthia also says this:

    "This place... Can you feel it? There are no Pokémon here at all. Time isn't flowing and space isn't stable. A world where the rules are broken. A space one might call the Distortion World... Let's find Giratina. We need it to stop the spreading distortion at the Spear Pillar..."
    You have to remember that this is a fictional world. Real world rules do not have to apply. If Cynthia (who, in-game, has studied these Pokemon and the legends of the Distortion World, says time does not flow in that realm, then it doesn't. We clearly see that space is warped there. Why is it out of the question to assume time isn't distorted as well?

    GhastlyGastly said:
    The Hall of Origin, I would argue, is also very like the Distortion Realm and/or Sinjoh Ruins and/or the Unown's dimension. Yes, Arceus can become any type, but that is hardly unique: Genesect and Kecleon are two others I can immediately think of.
    Click to expand...

    Genesect doesn't change type, only its signature move does. Kecleon requires being hit by an attack to type. Multiple can allow it to change type at will, and in the movie, it negates attacks of that type against it, which makes it almost invincible. It easily defeated Dialga, Palkia and Giratina together.

    GhastlyGastly said:
    Arceus is indeed a powerful Pokémon, perhaps even one of the most powerful; but that certainly doesn't imply it created the universe. I would wager that if any Pokémon created the universe, Unown is the only one which has had its creative powers fully established. I also don't know for sure that Game Freak has outright stated what you claim; the Pokédex entries of Dialga and Palkia contradict each other on the matter of their powers, with some claiming they are mythical, some seeming to declare them matter-of-factly. In any case, the only means of reconciling these discrepancies which I could convince myself of is a mythological/religious one: the Pokédex entries for them were made in Sinnoh, the people of which are almost entirely influenced by the religion/folkloric tradition of the myths which describe Arceus, etc. Religious people often speak of their deity in absolutes (i.e., God can control time; God created the universe; etc.). Dialga and Palkia are explicitly stated to be deities in ancient Sinnoh religion/mythology. It only makes sense that some Pokédex entries would reflect these religious views, given the region in which they were made (and half of the Generation IV Pokédex entries state very clearly that those claims were mythological). (It is notable that the Unova Pokédex entries are not at all straightforward in prescribing powers to Dialga and Palkia.)
    Click to expand...
    Like I said earlier, the Unown (at least to me) make sense at being manifested excess energy. (and in realation with Arceus's Multiple allowing it to be any type, Unown's Hidden Power can also be any type.) The Sinjoh Ruins event dialogue repeats the idea that Arceus does indeed possess the power to create, which is described as its "True power" by Cynthia.

    And yes, Dialga and Palkia have both demonstrated the ability to bend time and space in nearly all Pokemon media. Again, they do so in Smash bros., their attacks are said to have the effects of warping time and space in the main series. The anime shows them doing this, and I believe even the manga gives them these powers. These aren't just thrown out there. Going back to the movies, remember all the weird events that took place in the Darkrai movie? The town Ash and his friends were in literally started to vanish. And in the Giratina movie, Dialga placed a time loop around Giratina, which prevented it from being able to leave the Distortion World until Zero's machine reversed the loop. These events are all strong evidence (if not proof) to support that they do possess time and space warping abilities.
     
    When I think of anything in life which is Legendary, I usually associate it with having a Wikipedia article to show that it notable. Putting this opinion into perspective, there are just too many Legendaries to list that aren't notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article, including Raikou, Ho-Oh, the Legendary golems, Groudon, Kyogre, Jirachi, The Lake Guardians, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, the Lunar duo, the Sea Guardians, the Swords of Justice, the Kami trio and finally the Tao trio. Whereas the several of them that aren't Legendaries (Like Pikachu, Meowth, and Togepi for example) do have a Wikipedia article.

    So in theory, I think that statusing a Pokemon as "Legendary" is a purely fictional idea in my opinion. After all, Pokemon is just a fictional species. If they were real, then I think they would deserve to have their own Wikipedia article.
     
    François said:
    But the reason it can't learn those moves is because we don't have access to them, surely. I think the fact that it can't learn non-TM/HM/tutor moves that aren't in its learnset signifies us being unable to teach it those moves, rather than it being incapable of learning them if it wanted to.
    Click to expand...

    But the Pokedex and the sole argument supporting the ancestor claim is that mew can learn "All" attacks. Which no it cannot.

    Pokedexes that mention it learning or referencing all attacks:

    Crystal: Because it can learn any move, some people began research to see if it is the ancestor of all Pokémon.

    P/D/Pt: Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.

    SS: Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.

    B/W: Because it is able to use every move, there are many scientists who believe that it is the ancestor of all Pokémon.

    B2W2: Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.


    Now the Pokedexes are always Vague. Mew is only ever said to learn "every" move in 1 Pokedex set, but every other that mentions attacks do mention a reference to it learning a lot of attacks. Now this brings in the flaw in the ancestor part as since its called the Ancestor, which a lot of fans support, it is believed it can use all attacks, which we know to be false.

    It can only learn about 30%. Average Pokemon move percentage is in the 20's I believe. This is a very, VERY rough guess as I haven't gone through and looked at each Pokemon's info to see how many they learn and the % they have.

    Only Pokemon that can learn every move in the Pokemon world however is Smeargle. Through use of Sketch.

    I do want to point out that in B/W, the Pokedex said it learned every move which was quickly corrected by Gamefreak in B2W2 by making the number vague. Even with "All Kinds" there are a great many attacks it cannot learn, even in basic forms. Mew itself is a living embodiment of Pokemon's constant relapse of inconsistent information. Mew's Pokedex says one thing, but in reality, it doesn't live up to what the Pokedex says.

    As for other legends that have proven their powers to be true, Cresselia and Darkrai. Darkrai is said to put people and Pokemon into deep slumbers plagued with nightmares. Cresselia can cure these nightmares. The child in D/P/Pt came into contact with Darkrai and fell under its "curse". The Player then travels to Fullmoon Island to find Cresselia. You find her and she leaves behind a feather to help you cure the child.

    Boilurn said:
    When I think of anything in life which is Legendary, I usually associate it with having a Wikipedia article to show that it notable. Putting this opinion into perspective, there are just too many Legendaries to list that aren't notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article, including Raikou, Ho-Oh, the Legendary golems, Groudon, Kyogre, Jirachi, The Lake Guardians, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, the Lunar duo, the Sea Guardians, the Swords of Justice, the Kami trio and finally the Tao trio. Whereas the several of them that aren't Legendaries (Like Pikachu, Meowth, and Togepi for example) do have a Wikipedia article.

    So in theory, I think that statusing a Pokemon as "Legendary" is a purely fictional idea in my opinion. After all, Pokemon is just a fictional species. If they were real, then I think they would deserve to have their own Wikipedia article.
    Click to expand...

    Wikipedia has nothing to do with Pokemon and doesn't allow articles on all Pokemon. They tend only to focus on Pokemon that have been in Movies or are core parts to the Anime/Franchise. Besides that, Wikipedia is not a source that can be used to cite as proof. Case point: Someone anonymously edited Gamefreak's article back in December that the next set of games coming out for the 3DS were Raging Ruby and Serene Sapphire. It was later changed to Magma Ruby and Aqua Sapphire. I went in and DELETED that from the Wikipedia article and then left a post in the discussion that neither of those titles were proven to be true, nor was there any information and that they would need citation to prove their existence.

    My friends and I have gone through and did Wikipedia article edits when we were in high school due to what we saw as Incorrect information in it. This is a main reason why many schools and businesses don't give Wikipedia credit as a citation or resource.
     
    Last edited:
    voicerocker said:
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    At the end of the day, Pokemon is just a video game. If they're going to introduce a Pokemon for the games, they have to make sure it isn't overpowered beyond any hope of defeating it. 720 may not look like much from a realistic view, but they have to keep the programming fair.



    Arceus clearly creates a dragon in that event. Cynthia explains the whole thing.:

    "Arceus has accepted you as a Trainer. Arceus, having shaped the world, is said to show you a glimpse of its true power. The power of possibly making life appear out of nothing..." " The Unown can twist reality, as show in the 3rd movie, however, those are illusions and are temporary. (Such as the girl Molly aging and her super Pokemon). My own personal theory on this is that the Unown are Arceus's on power manifested as Pokemon (possibly as a result of the "Big Bang" of that universe? or perhaps to keep its own massive power in check?) And since the stage in the Sinjoh Ruins was built specifically for Arceus and the Unown appear when it is on the stage, that could very well explain why Arceus would be able to produce a real legendary dragon from nothing, meaning Arceus can access the Unown's powers.



    The only problem with that is that Giratina is supposed to be the sole living creature to exist in the Distortion World. The Unown probably have their own realm. Another of my own theories is that the Unown may serve as the "building blocks" of reality for the Pokemon world. In the Darkrai movie, every time Dialga and Palkia would strike each other with an attack, several Unown are seen being blown away by the shockwaves. This appears to be the result of time and space being distorted from the battle, which later causes the pollution of the Distortion World in the Shaymin movie.

    As for whether or not time does flow in the Distortion World, Cynthia also says this:

    "This place... Can you feel it? There are no Pokémon here at all. Time isn't flowing and space isn't stable. A world where the rules are broken. A space one might call the Distortion World... Let's find Giratina. We need it to stop the spreading distortion at the Spear Pillar..."
    You have to remember that this is a fictional world. Real world rules do not have to apply. If Cynthia (who, in-game, has studied these Pokemon and the legends of the Distortion World, says time does not flow in that realm, then it doesn't. We clearly see that space is warped there. Why is it out of the question to assume time isn't distorted as well?



    Genesect doesn't change type, only its signature move does. Kecleon requires being hit by an attack to type. Multiple can allow it to change type at will, and in the movie, it negates attacks of that type against it, which makes it almost invincible. It easily defeated Dialga, Palkia and Giratina together.



    Like I said earlier, the Unown (at least to me) make sense at being manifested excess energy. (and in realation with Arceus's Multiple allowing it to be any type, Unown's Hidden Power can also be any type.) The Sinjoh Ruins event dialogue repeats the idea that Arceus does indeed possess the power to create, which is described as its "True power" by Cynthia.

    And yes, Dialga and Palkia have both demonstrated the ability to bend time and space in nearly all Pokemon media. Again, they do so in Smash bros., their attacks are said to have the effects of warping time and space in the main series. The anime shows them doing this, and I believe even the manga gives them these powers. These aren't just thrown out there. Going back to the movies, remember all the weird events that took place in the Darkrai movie? The town Ash and his friends were in literally started to vanish. And in the Giratina movie, Dialga placed a time loop around Giratina, which prevented it from being able to leave the Distortion World until Zero's machine reversed the loop. These events are all strong evidence (if not proof) to support that they do possess time and space warping abilities.
    Click to expand...


    Yes, of course, we all know that Pokémon is just a video game; a fictional world. All the same, for example, it has been confirmed that the regions explored in the Pokémon games are modeled directly after real-world places, most of them in Japan. I personally find Pokémon more interesting to think of it in less fantastical, and more realistic terms. I understand that not everyone sees it this way, but I have come to the conclusion that it was originally intended by its creators to be a reasonably believable universe; though in recent years it has become increasingly farfetched. For example, I would consider virtually all of the movies after the first three to be apocryphal stories; nor do I believe what Cynthia says, simply because she has 'researched' the Pokémon in question. She may have done a lot of studying of the legends and folklore, for sure, but that is hardly a wholly-applicable reason for presuming her statements are proof of the legends' truth merely because she describes events in the games in the context of that mythological research. Quite frankly too, I would consider most special events in the games to be non-canonical, apocryphal: for instance, Birth Island, given it can not normally be accessed, except through cheating or special event, I would deem a non-canon location. Not everyone thinks in this way, and they needn't have to. This thread was simply for me to share one facet of my personal Pokémon theory, and the reasons for my present conclusions. You obviously have different ideas; and frankly I have, in my years, shared many of them. In any case, you make excellent points. I simply see Pokémon in a different way.
     
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