another letter to nintendo

[bigredshoes]

/showthread.php?t=25132 This email was from 2004 so I thought I'd contact them after seeing Nintendo sending some C&D letters to a pokemon and mario fangame. Copy-paste below link to view emails: pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eYt9MYju I don't see if this will go anywhere

 

[Worldslayer608]

You will never get a straight forward answer. This is simply because Nintendo has stated in the past that they enjoy seeing fangames, but they do have an obligation to take legal action if they find it damaging to sales.

Simply put, if there is any resource exchange for a fan game you are in violation of DMCA and Nintendo will probably step in. Reason being is that it can always lead back to sales.

My assumption is that they are like many other fans of fan games. they like to see them. Most of them do not pan out and the ones that do really should be free for play because we are all fans, both developer and gamer alike. Suffice to say, it is probably safe to assume that Nintendo would like to see fans enjoy their product in various forms, so long as the fans keep supporting both Nintendo and it's franchises.

 

[bigredshoes]

No one is asking for a straightforward answer. If you would read it again and the old emails I linked (the top of the post, I had to remove the 'www pokecommunity dot com' part to be able to post) I was just asking if the points given in the old ones were still valid, I, like the previous person who had contacted them, understood that Nintendo's views would have no legal effect and it would just make us feel more confident, thought I had to repeat myself several times on some points because they assumed I was thinking something else when I had explicitly mentioned exactly what I meant.

This topic is not about what is legal or what not, like I said in my emails, "fair use" is only known to US and something similar exist only in some European countries and fair use is decided on a case by case basis which means you have to stand in court and "prove" the judge that your work falls under that category. I haven't seen any fan game developer do that, mainly because they have no knowledge in the legal field and they can never be too sure they are right. This is called a "chilling effect". Knowing the company's views on the subject just helps you decide if it's worth working on a fan game at all. It's not a legal question if fan games are fair use or asking Nintendo if they will ever shut down any fan game.

This all seemed like a formal talk where you are told what you already know. Which is the usual case, but is sad, seeing their old replies from 2004.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

It's Nintendo's properly, their IP, It's totally in their right to go take down fan-games, as they are technically competition. I don't think any judge would place it under fair use when you're using their IP to essentially make a free alternative.

I don't buy Pokemon games because I get my fix from making one. So that's one lost sale already :O

and this will likely never change, except for maybe small exceptions. or if Nintendo goes bankrupt and the Pokemon fall into public domain. Same with any other company/IP

When you're entering fangame development, you know you're gonna be infringing copyright.

 

[thepsynergist]

This site itself is breaking copyright. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Worldslayer608]

No one is asking for a straightforward answer. If you would read it again and the old emails I linked (the top of the post, I had to remove the 'www pokecommunity dot com' part to be able to post) I was just asking if the points given in the old ones were still valid, I, like the previous person who had contacted them, understood that Nintendo's views would have no legal effect and it would just make us feel more confident, thought I had to repeat myself several times on some points because they assumed I was thinking something else when I had explicitly mentioned exactly what I meant.

This topic is not about what is legal or what not, like I said in my emails, "fair use" is only known to US and something similar exist only in some European countries and fair use is decided on a case by case basis which means you have to stand in court and "prove" the judge that your work falls under that category. I haven't seen any fan game developer do that, mainly because they have no knowledge in the legal field and they can never be too sure they are right. This is called a "chilling effect". Knowing the company's views on the subject just helps you decide if it's worth working on a fan game at all. It's not a legal question if fan games are fair use or asking Nintendo if they will ever shut down any fan game.

This all seemed like a formal talk where you are told what you already know. Which is the usual case, but is sad, seeing their old replies from 2004.

DMCA is an international act. Many other countries outside of the US and Europe follow DMCA. Few countries do not follow DMCA and many of them are hosts to various sites used for illegal purposes. I have a fairly extensive insight to DMCA as it was something I had to take into consideration for a commercial site I owned a few years back. Viacom is far more concerned about their content being used without consent then Nintendo will ever be.

That being said. Nintendo's statements in the replies is just as valid today as it has ever been.

You will also be receiving a letter of Cease and Dismiss before legal action is taken, more often then not.

weighing the risk is something people do not consider. Myself, as a fan game developer of many games throughout my life time, always take into consideration that it is a fan game, and always encourage fan game players to continue their support for the game and franchise they love. That is a moral obligation as far as I am concerned.

You also have to understand that it is a hobby for most people. Much like assembling model planes. Worrying about legal action is really only something you should even consider if you plan on releasing the game without taking an anti-piracy stance while making the game.

 

[IceGod64]

This site itself is breaking copyright. I wouldn't worry about it.

... Have you verified that at all? The only thing copyright infringing on this site at all that I see is the use of public artwork by the original developers. It is not illegal to make a site meant for people sharing a particular common interest.

 

[bigredshoes]

I'm asking again, please don't talk about legality of fan games, that is not the purpose of this topic, if you aren't going to read through the emails, then at least read my last post please.

I don't buy Pokemon games because I get my fix from making one. So that's one lost sale already

I might not watch a movie after I read some negative reviews and I might not buy an Xbox if I really like the PS3. I suggest you google "fair use". We can continue this conversation through pms. @ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™: I don't understand why you meantion DMCA, C&D and mention this is a hobby for most of us. I don't see where we disagree, I assume you didn't read the emails or my last post thoroughly as well. Please read the second half of the post again.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

^ flawed argument.
reviews aren't a replacement for reviews. PS3 isn't using something the Xbox owns.
I've always been playing and making fangames as a replacement for nintendo games (earlier just because of lack of funds, recently because of spite)
Quality Fangames compete with the actual pokemon games.

I suggest you google "fair use"

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fair-use-rule-copyright-material-30100.html
https://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/fair_use.html
Fair use is generally for comments/critisims, reporting, Quoting and parody.
Making a mod, a LBP level, taking screenshots thoes would be examples of fair use.
making a pokemon game that is basically copying existing pokemon games and using their resorces and their IP would likely mean copy infringement.

 

[bigredshoes]

I'm asking the third time, please don't talk about what is legal and what is not, that is not the purpose of this topic, pm me if you want, like I have said already. I have done extensive research on the matter and I'm not here to hear your opinions on ips and fair use. I do suggest you to contact a lawyer like I already have because your knowledge isn't very correct.

 

[Worldslayer608]

I'm asking the third time, please don't talk about what is legal and what is not, that is not the purpose of this topic, pm me if you want, like I have said already. I have done extensive research on the matter and I'm not here to hear your opinions on ips and fair use. I do suggest you to contact a lawyer like I already have because your knowledge isn't very correct.

What is the point of this topic? Apparently we are all missing the point of it because what everyone seems to get from it is that you are asking what is legal and what is not and Nintendo is refusing to actually define the thin line you are wanting to walk in a legal matter.

DMCA, C&D Letters and even Intellectual Property are all coming into play here.

So maybe you should clarify because you are seemingly saying the topic is not about the direction you were taking in your emails, but your emails are all we have to really read.

Fair Use is something entirely different then Copyright Infringement. You clearly are not understanding this aspect of Law or something.

Either you are trolling or you are just not being clear.

 

[bigredshoes]

By "everyone" you mean two people...

What is the point of this topic?

If you still don't understand the point of a topic, don't waste your and other's time replying to it. The point of the email was to ask Nintendo's position on derivitive works (like in the previous one from 2004). The point of the topic is to show an example of "another letter to nintendo". Mentioning copyright infringement here when fair use is basically an exception to use other's copyright without that being considered copyright infringement is pointless. And again, it's not even the point of the topic.

Fair Use is something entirely different then Copyright Infringement

-_-

 

[KingCharizard]

You can use Nintendo Copyrighted material you just cant sell it, and if your making money off anything Nintendo or Gamefreak has copyrighted you will get a warning if your actions don't stop immediately you will be sued and taken to court. However Nintendo doesn't wanna go to court just as much as you don't wish to because court costs money and they don't wanna lose money so their isn't a big risk. However if you don't take down their property when asked you they will pursue.

Bottom line make your fan game, dont try to make money off it and you'll be fine.
TIP: Adverts/adsense on a website for your game is a good way to make a profit...

oh and orginal poster here is your answer: "This is simply because Nintendo has stated in the past that they enjoy seeing fangames, but they do have an obligation to take legal action if they find it damaging to sales."

 

[bigredshoes]

To the poster above me: you should know that not "selling it" does not make it legal and companies are not automatically okay with it, a good example is Pokenet mmo which was sent a C&D letter. Or the Chrono Resurrection fangame or the Streets Of Rage remake.

"This is simply because Nintendo has stated in the past that they enjoy seeing fangames, but they do have an obligation to take legal action if they find it damaging to sales."

I know, why do you think I started my email with "I would like toknow if Nintendo's views on fan labor, specifically "fan games" have changed over the past few years."?

 

[DaSpirit]

Pokenet did seem like it damaged sales. Think of it this way. They had Kanto and Johto in the game, mapped the same way as they were in the official games. Why would someone buy the official games that feature those regions if they could get it for free and enjoy it more since it's an MMO?

I think the safest way to make a fan game is to make your own maps and use your own graphics and sounds. The most you'd copy here are the names, which can always be changed if anything.

 

[Worldslayer608]

To the poster above me: you should know that not "selling it" does not make it legal and companies are not automatically okay with it, a good example is Pokenet mmo which was sent a C&D letter. Or the Chrono Resurrection fangame or the Streets Of Rage remake. I know, why do you think I started my email with "I would like toknow if Nintendo's views on fan labor, specifically "fan games" have changed over the past few years."?

Now you are just trolling.

your question has been answered time multiple times. KingCharizard has stated it in the most simplistic way possible.

Asking them if it has changed is first and foremost a very indirect question for Nintendo itself to answer, since their views on it are already murky.

This thread just needs to be locked.

 

[bigredshoes]

ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ, with all due respect can you stop spamming this thread? Please stop making assumptions on what this thread is about, stop thinking that I'm asking a question, stop assuming I need info on what nintendo's views are and finally stop calling me a troll.

your question has been answered time multiple times.

See what I mean? I haven't asked any questions here and I already know what Nintendo has said in the past. This is not the point of the topic, so please if you still don't understand what this topic is for then just don't reply to it. I am repeating myself and not the first time. @DaSpirit: yes Pokenet used media from the original games, which Nintendo said back in their 2004 emails that they are not okay with. Thanks for mentioning that, it could have been one of the reasons. I guess the domain name was a reason too.

 

[Rossay]

As far as I am aware, making any kind of fan-game based on the Pokemon universe would be an infringement of copyright and IP laws. I think, partially due to the sheer volume of fan-games, that Nintendo will focus its legal assets on targeting projects which have an online aspect -- i.e. MMORPGs -- as these are projects which could potentially damage sales significantly.

I don't think you will get any sort of clear-cut answer from Nintendo because it is simply not in their interest as a commercial entity to do so.

 

[Worldslayer608]

ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ, with all due respect can you stop spamming this thread? Please stop making assumptions on what this thread is about, stop thinking that I'm asking a question, stop assuming I need info on what nintendo's views are and finally stop calling me a troll. See what I mean? I haven't asked any questions here and I already know what Nintendo has said in the past. This is not the point of the topic, so please if you still don't understand what this topic is for then just don't reply to it. I am repeating myself and not the first time.\

You have posted a string of emails which lack a focus point. If you are saying I am spamming this thread by pointing that out, then you are either A) Trolling of B) Spamming. Take your pick.

You have not asked any questions, you have not given the discussion a focal point, and the comments and reply's are the generic two-ply responses that are pretty much the only possible responses to the topic in general because it has no other possible focal point for a discussion.

This is hardly something to discuss.

So if the point of this topic is not to discuss DMCA and how it applies to fan games, or a question about Nintendo's stance then I am left thinking that this topic is either for your own +1 pleasure and you like to spam. OR it is about trying to find another approach to get your questions answered by Nintendo, who have clearly replied stating they were not going to give you any form of legal advice on the matter.

So what one is it? Give this thread something to focus on rather then a string of emails and a statement that these were emails to Nintendo. Stop the idiocy that is contained within this topic.

 

[KingCharizard]

You have posted a string of emails which lack a focus point. If you are saying I am spamming this thread by pointing that out, then you are either A) Trolling of B) Spamming. Take your pick.

You have not asked any questions, you have not given the discussion a focal point, and the comments and reply's are the generic two-ply responses that are pretty much the only possible responses to the topic in general because it has no other possible focal point for a discussion.

This is hardly something to discuss.

So if the point of this topic is not to discuss DMCA and how it applies to fan games, or a question about Nintendo's stance then I am left thinking that this topic is either for your own +1 pleasure and you like to spam. OR it is about trying to find another approach to get your questions answered by Nintendo, who have clearly replied stating they were not going to give you any form of legal advice on the matter.

So what one is it? Give this thread something to focus on rather then a string of emails and a statement that these were emails to Nintendo. Stop the idiocy that is contained within this topic.

I am aware, it is still copyright infringement to use anything trademarked or copyrighted by anyone else however they are less likely to care if you use the graphics and don't sell them which is why a site like this has not been closed yet.

Also i'd like to point out in your emails you never just asked the question "Do you like fan games being made, Yes or No" You seems to beat around the bush expecting Nintendo to answer as they did and each time you got the same answer which was the correct one. The people who you emailed are not the CEO of Nintendo, they are just support, or maybe the developers either way they cannot answer your question for the whole company... You'd have to go to the top of the food chain and ask the CEO how he/she feels about fan games, and their answer is the only one that matters.

BTW OP: this is a question

Hello. I would like toknow if Nintendo's views on fan labor, specifically "fan games" have changed over the past few years. I'm talking about non-profit fan games which do not use any assets from the original media/Nintendo's websites, do not affect Nintendo's sales, do not suggest sponsorship, endorsement or association with Nintendo and can be considered a free advertisement for Nintendo's products. Although "fan fiction" or "fan games" are not listed as "fair use" under the US copyright law, the above factors are in favor of considering them "fair use", however, as "fair use" is decided on a case by case basis and "fair use/dealing" is only known to some jurisdictions, I thought it would be best to know Nintendo's views on fan games.
I see that others have contacted Nintendo with a similar question before: <You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more.>
However, I have learned that Nintendo has sent a Cease and desist letter to the developers of at least one fan game, which made me wonder, has Nintendo's views on such fan games changed over the past few years, or was there possibly another reason to halt the development of that particular fan game?

So if this topic wasn't about Nintendo's stance on fan games then i gotta side with worldslayer

And i dont know the entire situation about pokenet.com or whatever the site was but i believe they were also selling memberships or something else which clearly violates copyright laws