Are we really abusing the term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" for the Anime characters?

[matt0044]

I was on Bulbagarden where a user, Meron, said that Iris was NOT a Mary Sue on her blog. Here's what it said:

This is NOT a "stop hating over a character I like" post. You can dislike her as much as you want. However, whatever you think of her, DON'T abuse terms. Iris is not a Mary Sue... How many characters do you see fawning over her beauty and skills? :P Iris is not any more a Mary Sue than Hikari (Kengo liked her) or Haruka (Shuu liked her), or even Kasumi (bunch of dudes liked her) were. People are not constantly telling her how much they admire her, either.

Also, I see people calling Luke a Mary Sue too. Axew's me?

First of all, Luke is a male character. Male characters are NOT referred as Mary Sues. If you have to refer to him as the embodiment of perfectness, at least use the correct term which is Gary Stu. If you don't want to call him Gary for obvious reasons, call him Marty or Larry. I don't see any reason why you'd think Luke is anything near a Gary Stu, though.

Ironically, in my opinion the most Gary Stueish character is Dento. I absolutely love him, by the way.

TL;DR Learn yeh terms right.

Another user commented, saying this:

Really I don't think there's a "right" definition for Mary Sue anymore. It's been so used and abused by everyone and their siblings to mean "Characters whom I think get too much of the story/got together with a character from MY ship/etc" that it's entirely pointless to even use it.

Well, unless you're deliberately trying to be insulting and demeaning. Which I suspect a lot of people who use the term are.

And another said this:

Agreed. I've never used or liked the 'Mary Sue' label, it's pretty stupid especially when it's directed at the females. People who accuse Iris of being that way are basically just saying she possesses some common, female traits.
The most girly girl was Dawn. She was the only one who really cared about her appearance and made the effort to dress up for contests, and the whole, Pokemon fashion thing.
Say what you like about Iris but she's not that way in the slightest as far as I can tell. She actually lets her Kibago live inside her hair..she's never shown any signs of being timid or vain.

Needless to say, I have to agree with Meron and the other two. I don't mean to insult anybody but a lot of us really have been abusing the terms "Mary Sue" and "Gary Sue" when it comes to the characters of the Anime.

A "Mary Sue/Gary Sue" is suppose to a fictional character that's perfect in every way and a representation of the author's dreams in that she/he wants to be perfect. For example, the character has no flaws (perfect body, perfect attitude, etc) and, as a result, isn't compelling, engaging or interesting in any way. I might be missing something but I think I got the gist of it.

So, I ask you, all: WHY ARE WE APPLYING THIS TERM TO ASH AND CO.?

Aside from what was said about, an example I've commonly seen what when Dawn lost the Sinnoh Grand Festival. I was upset but others didn't want Dawn to win as they said the victory would make her a "Mary Sue." Um, how? Dawn might not be a very interesting character to some but since when was she perfect or intended to be a representation of the writer(s)? How would she winning a tournament (on her first go, no less) and taking a giant step towards her goal make her a Mary Sue? This applies to May and Iris as well.

Seriously, while Ash, Misty, May, Dawn, Iris, Brock and Cilan might not be the greatest characters in Pokemon, they barely qualify as Mary Sues/Gary Sues, if you want to get technical.

I could go on but we'd be here all year so just post your replies. I want your honest thoughts so don't make it short.

 

[Zayin]

I agree with you there. I don't see why any of the characters listen above could be considered Mary Sues/Gary Stus. None of them is perfect; they all have their own flaws. I tried thinking of a Mary Sue in the anime and the first one that popped into my mind was Cynthia: pretty, wise and powerful. Even then, I don't think gifted anime characters like her are automatically Mary Sues. There has to be some unrealistic exaggeration for one to be.

 

[matt0044]

^Actually, the only real Mary Sues to me are Ritchie and T(r)o(ll)bias.

 

[psyanic]

Ash and Co are certainly NOT Mary Sues. I don't really see anyone in the Anime as a Mary/Gary Sue, of course there are exceptions. I'll just nit-pick a few characters and point out a flaw or two.

Ash. How many actual certified competitions has he won? None. You can see his flaws present in nearly every episode. He's unintelligent, bashful, stubborn, but can also be caring, compassionate, and even loving (but that's mainly towards his own Pokemon rather than people). If he was a Gary Sue, he wouldn't be as dense as a rock. The only reason people might actually refer to him as a Gary Sue would be that he seriously lacks any real character development. In the end, he always restarts as a bumbling idiot hoping to win a competition here and there. So, he's a typical Anime protagonist in every possible way.

As for Dawn, I find it hard to see her as a Mary Sue as well. I would have liked her to win that Grand Festival, mainly because it would live up to Johanna's legacy. I also thought she deserved it more anyway. Of course she's a girly girl, but that's a breath of fresh air compared to Ash's other female companions. Misty was the perfect tomboy, May was just shy and didn't actually bother to do anything girly, and Iris is pretty much like Misty (in mannerism anyway...) Going on about Dawn, she kept losing the contests in Sinnoh. So the fans who call her Mary Sue are in over their head.

May was always nervous and shy. She wasn't confident and bawled up at her first loss in a contest. She's also bubbly and sunny, but still ended up losing in the Grand Festival. Why? Because she's gullible and dependent on others, especially Ash. I'm glad to see that the writers gave her a backbone and basically rejected Ash's further mentoring after the Battle Frontier Arc.

Cynthia - powerful, pretty Champion but takes too long in making decisions.

Lance - sure he's "dreamy" but he has no social life, being with the G-Men all the time.

Ritchie - the copycat brown-haired version of Ash who thinks its cool to nickname his Pokemon. What a doof.

Team Rocket is pretty straightforward. When have they actually accomplished in stealing Pokemon and delivered it to Rocket HQ that was worthwhile? No matter what, they're just the same idiots who can't steal a blasted Pikachu, of all things. I'm glad they're not in many episodes in BW Series.

Brock is just hopeless. The writers should have killed him off or something before DP because they gave him nothing in that series. He's just Mama Brock, the one to love the traveling companions in an awkward shower of motherly-ness. I wish they made him run off into the sunset with Holly, who finally shows that she is interested in Brock and he returns the infatuation, but she left after they lost like a sore loser.

Mary Sue/Gary Sue is definitely overused for the Anime. Everyone has their flaws, evident in their (small) character development over the course of their series. To me, the only arguably Gary Sue would be Cilan. I never see his flaws, and he literally does everything. Cooking, battling, fishing, being detective, etc. But then again, he's not really a boring character either. So, a Gary Sue is not a suitable title for old dear Cilan.

I think Tobias was a Gary Sue though. He was just a random plot hole to make sure Ash never won the Sinnoh League. If it wasn't more a Darkrai/Latios, Ash would have finally conquered a league. What was his flaw? No friends? Cocky?

But look, Mary/Gary Sue is thrown out whenever a main character wins a major tournament or something, so that's why the writers work hard to make sure they don't. But, this kind of backfires because they call the actual winners Mary/Gary Sue anyway, which I'd have to agree with.

Think about this, all of the characters on the show are never well written. Practically everyone lacks a personality in a way, and all of them are flat characters.

 

[Palantides]

None of the characters in the anime can be a Mary Sue or a Gary Sue, because it's an improper usage of the term. They're only used for Fanfiction, where someone places their own character into the universe, makes them perfect, makes them have some kind of unique quirk that does not fit in with the setting, and generally the fan sees themselves as this particular character. They also seem to have traits that make them better than the Canon characters.

What you can call Ash and friends are either Canon Sue, or Canon Stu. And in a lot of cases, they do exhibit very "sueish" behaviour. It's perhaps not as common as what you would see in a Fanfic, but it's definitely there. It mostly appears at the start of any particular season, and begins to fade as it goes on and they experience character growth. Though a lot of their "sue" aspects still remain even until the end.

 

[Jorah]

Haven't seen anyone here say they hate Ash and co. for being Mary's/Gary's here, so it must be the bmgf guys.

^Actually, the only real Mary Sues to me are Ritchie and T(r)o(ll)bias.

I agree with this :)