Atheist Alliance

[2Cool4Mewtwo]

1. Don't act like you know everything, then step off your high horse when you are found wrong.
2. On lawyers. Separation of Church and State. It's a thingie now.
3. It sounds like you hold yourself in high regard. A bit of an egotistic nature, if you don't mind me saying. Here's a thing. Argue only about what you know.

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

Phantom (and only him, please) : If you're REALLY bothered by this comment, you can PM me about it. I don't want to look like chickening out of this. Don't expect me to be nice to you, though.

 

[Phantom1]

Sadly yes, though the only thing that's necessary to go to heaven is to genuinely believe in god, and ask him to be part of your life through prayer, which anyone can do at any point, even someone like Hitler, as I said earlier. (For me anyway, I guess some other versions are more involved, though I can't believe that rituals like what phantom described could possibly be necessary.)

Hitler was a baptized and confirmed Catholic. Theoritically, at least according to the RCC, he could go to heaven if he had gone to confession regularly. That or be in purgatory until he got to go to heaven. Who knows. Though according to history he left the church, but was never offically excommunicated.

According to the Bible, and Jesus, Baptism is needed in order to get to heaven. Source,

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I said nothing of the sort.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Command/imperative sentences? I'm not sure what you mean, that's just how I talk? *confused*

I never insulted intelligence! I will admit I was upset when I wrote that. But I explained later what I meant. I was just giving advice, take it or leave it.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.


If you know anything about debates you should know never to take anything personal. This is why this particular discussion is always a hard topic.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

Don't judge all people on the premise that you don't like the few that you've met. That's wrong. The thing is you're doing what a lot of people do in this debate, you're taking things to a personal level. The members of this 'aliance' are just stating facts. Sorry if my way of stating them in a list is wrong? or something? It's just how I organize my thoughts. You're lashing back for your beliefs, which is fine and understandable. Getting angry or upset is something to be avoided, a hard thing to do.

Phantom (and only him, please) : If you're REALLY bothered by this comment, you can PM me about it. I don't want to look like chickening out of this. Don't expect me to be nice to you, though.

Like I said before, don't take debates personal.

Also, again. I am a woman, thank you very much.

 

[Alice]

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

This is why I've been so careful about what I say here... because I didn't want this to happen to me. Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist. I understand that this is supposed to be a thread where you can safely do that, but I would appreciate it if you did tone it down a little bit when discussing things with Christians here.

 

[Phantom1]

This is why I've been so careful about what I say here... because I didn't want this to happen to me. Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist. I understand that this is supposed to be a thread where you can safely do that, but I would appreciate it if you did tone it down a little bit when discussing things with Christians here.

I am confused as to how we are being elitist?

Also you should read my response for 2Cool4Mewtwo in my previous post.

 

[Oryx]

Hitler was a baptized and confirmed Catholic. Theoritically, at least according to the RCC, he could go to heaven if he had gone to confession regularly. That or be in purgatory until he got to go to heaven. Who knows. Though according to history he left the church, but was never offically excommunicated.

According to the Bible, and Jesus, Baptism is needed in order to get to heaven. Source,



Baptism is for the removal of Original Sin; which cannot be removed from confession.

Even when I was Catholic, I still held the belief that after you died God/Jesus would reveal themselves to you and give you a chance to repent knowing that they do exist, and baptize/accept you right there if you repented. It mitigated the unfairness of the millions of people that don't even know Catholicism exists but are still good people to me.

If God did exist that's how I hope He would work honestly.

Edit@QK:

Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist.

If you don't mind, would you quote some sentences that you believe are elitist-sounding? I looked through everything since you posted and tried to find something and all I saw was a slant towards atheism, which would be understandable given the nature of the club, lol.

 

[Phantom1]

https://www.piercedhearts.org/magisterium_church/splendor_truth/what_we_believe/what%20we%20believe_believe_after_death.htm

Purgatory; if you weren't a regular visitor to confession then you'd spend time there to 'wash away' sins.

The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of "Venial Sin" (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. When Jesus was cruxified he opened the way to heaven and freed the souls that were trapped in Purgatory. Purgatory removes the effects of sin.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

CCC 1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

In order ensure heaven you need to go through with at least five of the seven sacrements. Go to confession once a week, receive the eucharist, be baptized, confirmed (if you older and get baptized they happen at the same time I believe), and recieve last rites.

There are even those that if a newborn is going to die they do emergency baptisms to get rid of original sin, but I think that is just a really old school thing? But I've seen it happen recently with my baby cousin who they thought was going to die.

 

[Oryx]

https://www.piercedhearts.org/magisterium_church/splendor_truth/what_we_believe/what%20we%20believe_believe_after_death.htm

Purgatory; if you weren't a regular visitor to confession then you'd spend time there to 'wash away' sins.

The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of "Venial Sin" (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. When Jesus was cruxified he opened the way to heaven and freed the souls that were trapped in Purgatory. Purgatory removes the effects of sin.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

CCC 1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

In order ensure heaven you need to go through with at least five of the seven sacrements. Go to confession once a week, receive the eucharist, be baptized, confirmed (if you older and get baptized they happen at the same time I believe), and recieve last rites.

There are even those that if a newborn is going to die they do emergency baptisms to get rid of original sin, but I think that is just a really old school thing? But I've seen it happen recently with my baby cousin who they thought was going to die.

Isn't Purgatory just for baptized people though? My belief applied equally to people that chose not to get baptized, that didn't have the chance to get baptized, people of other religions, and practicing and non-practicing Christians. It wasn't a "judge your dedication to God" kind of judgement either, just a judgement on if you were a good person and truly repented for your sins in life. So quite different from the idea of Purgatory. You're right about baptism/confirmation/first communion though, they all come at once if you're in high school or above when you come into the Church (I was 16 haha).

I don't know anything about emergency baptisms, but fun story: I was in RCIA with some family friends, and one of the women's father had just died. She was talking about it to the group and how his last moment were so unexpected that he didn't even get a chance to be baptized like he wanted, and one of the people replied, completely stonefaced, "Oh well. That means he can't go to Heaven." To a woman who had just lost her father suddenly. That wasn't really relevant but I just wanted to share that story haha. Sorry you can get back on topic now!

 

[Phantom1]

I really don't know off hand. I'd have to do some research.

 

[Shining Raichu]

"Atheists suck and are elitists" "No we don't stop assuming" etc

Alright, I know we've moved on now but just in case anybody was planning to continue down this road, that's enough. It's getting a bit personal and off-topic and we should all just leave it be because this kind of "debating" gets nobody anywhere. Though I think it's important to note that in a club house designed for any certain group of people, it is natural to expect a certain degree of elitism by that group toward those who come to challenge their beliefs. I would expect the same of any group in the religious genre; it is not specific to atheists.

Furthermore (and somewhat more importantly), I think if everybody paid more attention to what everybody else is saying rather than how they are saying it, we may all receive valuable educations in spite of ourselves.

Sadly yes

I'm actually quite comfortable with that. I'm more than willing to take my chances.

 

[Alice]

I am confused as to how we are being elitist?

Also you should read my response for 2Cool4Mewtwo in my previous post.

Meh, maybe I'm wrong. It just felt that way to me, especially considering Mewtwo's reaction. Sorry if I overreacted. lol

Though I think it's important to note that in a club house designed for any certain group of people, it is natural to expect a certain degree of elitism by that group toward those who come to challenge their beliefs.

Yeah, that's true. It doesn't really matter anyway. lol

 

[Shining Raichu]

Well I didn't mean y'all had to stop talking altogether lmao.

Here is an article I found interesting, about what it's like to grieve for lost loved ones as an atheist. How do you feel about the religious people who tell you that the death was "all part of God's plan" or that the deceased is now "an angel"? Obviously the comments are meant for comfort and the speakers have only the best of intentions, but would you react well to that if you were dealing with grief?

 

[Pudz]

I generally jus' take it in stride. The thing is for a lot of people? It means a lot to /them/ to be able to comfort you with their faith. I find that very charming. I've discussed in-depth my beliefs on what happens when a person dies, but that doesn't stop me smiling and accepting condolences from someone with a theistic faith. When my best friend committed suicide in my teens, people often said things like "she's with God now"; and sure, I don't believe it, no, and it doesn't take away the memory of holding her in my arms when she died. But it /does/ let me know they care, and that means the world.

 

[FrostPheonix]

Rise Against- Make it Stop (September's Children)

A wonderful song. More on the topic on LGBT, but thought you guys might like it.

3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

I saw the qoute used to say baptism is needed for heaven. I think 'born again' merely means placing your trust in god, and your spirit is reborn that way.

also saw most of you don't agree with catholicism... from what I saw, its mostly how they practice it. That happens because of misunderstanding; the church's actual stand I fully support.

 

[Harmonie]

Hello, I recently became an Atheist. I was originally an Atheist several years ago, but then I became a Christian again for a while... But this time I don't think there is any turning back for me. I understand a whole lot more about Christianity, its history, and other religions then I did before.

I don't know if anybody is still doing these, but I figured I would:

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Same-Sex Marriage - There is no valid argument against it. Of course there are religious reasons. However, those reasons can not stand up in a government with separation of church and state.

Abortion - I know this is a strange position for an Atheist Progressive such as me, but: Personally, I just can't be for it. No matter what I see that baby as human life, and I think it's wrong to kill people no matter what. I think there are cases where it's not so black and white, though, like when the mother's life is in danger.

Death Penalty - Again, I'm against the killing of human life. So the people who will be sent to the death penalty are terrible people? So what? Make them spend the rest of their lives in prison. Killing them is an easy way out.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
Well, to put my views on religion in perspective - I don't claim to know that there is no God, but I do claim that a God is highly unlikely, and for the record I think that the Christian God is much less likely than the general concept of a God, so I've pretty much completely disregarded that one.

In general, I believe the likelihood of a God is so low that there's no reason to live my life as if there is one. There is no proof or evidence. The world and universe being natural actually makes so much more sense to me.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to answer the question! I came to be an Atheist from a variety of things - Studying history, being exposed to Atheist arguments, and never being one strong in faith to begin with. I wasn't as indoctrinated as much as others, so when I began to realize that religion doesn't make sense, I was out of it fast.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
No. Consciousness is confined to our brains and is just the interaction of chemicals.

Afterlife is a nice thought, especially to me for personal reasons regarding issues I'm having in my life. However, it's just not feasible.

If there were an afterlife, I would love for it to be reincarnation - reincarnation to live another human life right after this life dies.

Do you believe in aliens?
It's not so much a matter of belief, it's a matter of logic. The universe is HUGE, and we, with our incredibly limited knowledge, have already discovered quite a few planets within the life-sustaining range of their solar system. That doesn't prove life, no, but it just goes to show. Even in how little we can see, there are already chances.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
My family doesn't know. I believe it's for the best that they don't. In regard to my friends, I will tell them if the proper place to tell them comes. Some friends know, some don't.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
They may not be the same thing, but you can't truthfully have freedom of religion without the separation of church and state. There are a great deal of different beliefs out there, and if one's beliefs become law, that's a problem.

There are places where separation of church and state can be iffy. Sadly, it seems like those issues are overlooked while something so simple that does not violate religious freedom in any way but does violate the separation of church and state (same-sex marriage) is blown up to be this big issue, never gets legalized for long, if it ever is legalized to begin with. I don't get it.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
Depends on which God... If the Christian God existed, I'd think that the world would be completely different from how it is now. Well, honestly, I think that many things regarding the design of the universe, world, and living beings would be entirely different, but disregarding that, if the Bible were true to modern day, I'd think that God would be showing signs. Not vague signs. I'm talking like what happened in the Bible. Miracles would also happen a lot more often. And I'm not talking about miracles like "I got that job!" or even "that medical treatment was successful!" I'm talking like growing of new limbs, and happening without any medical assistance.

Additionally, if the Christian God were true, I don't think all of these other religions would exist.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
My family is Christian - Not Fundamentalist. They're pretty liberal on the matter.

 

[Shining Raichu]

Welcome, Envy! I have added you to the club :)

What I find interesting is the amount of people who say their parents or friends don't know that they're atheists. It's almost like it's as big of a deal as being gay, where there has to be this involved 'coming out' process. It might just be the area where I live, but... is it really that big of a deal?

 

[Alice]

It is a big deal.

It's basically the same as walking up to your parents and saying "Hi, mom. I'm going to totally forsake everything you've taught me, and burn in hell for all eternity. kthxbai" (Assuming they're Christian anyway.)

My mom took me coming out as gay fairly well, because I was still Christian, and thus still safe. Being an atheist would be a much bigger deal.

 

[Shining Raichu]

I think coming out as gay means so much more though; to a parent in particular. It means they are far less likely to get the grandchildren they invariably desire and it means the dreams they had for you of the white picket fences and the beautiful wife (or dashing husband in the case of girls) come crashing down and lay shattered about them - only to be replaced by you with another man (or woman)... in the bedroom. Which in the case of gay people is the first place a person's mind will go.

With an atheist, it changes nothing about their life, just their potential afterlife. I understand that if it goes against the values a parent tries to teach you then it's a big deal... but is it really on the same scale?

 

[Mana1]

~Join me up :3 I am an Athiest.

I seem to come to quite a different background/area to most of you, as here Athiesm is practically the norm. That being said I am at university studying Science, which probably has something to do with it.

I don't approve of organised religion, however I do respect individual beliefs. My boyfriend is a Christian, and one who is very certain and proud of his faith. Sometimes we clash heads, but mostly in the spirit of debate rather than just an argument over who is right. The reason (most of the time) I find it easy to accept his faith is that he is not what I'd call an ignorant religious person - he acknowledges scientific theories (like Evolution) and simply refers to it as God's work, saying he put that in place. When people outright deny science is when I do look down on them.

There are things in religion I simply don't understand. For example: Why do religious people feel the need to congregate? Surely a one-on-one prayer with your God is better than being dictated to on what to say, what to pray for, etc. at a sermon?

Also, from my point of view.

A Christian (or other relgious people) works hard, and is nice to others, for a pay-off in the afterlife.

When Athiests are nice to people it is because they want to be.

 

[Shining Raichu]

Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

 

[Mana1]

Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

Although him and his family are all Anglican (his dad is actually training to be a priest) they are all totally accepting of gay people though. It makes a change from 'the norm' and what people expect of christians.

That being said, my boyfriend doesn't like how the church is so anti gay wedding (although this is currently being reviewed in the UK) so he is looking to convert to become a Quaker (another sub-division of Christianity).

Apparently Quakers are effectively christians who actually do just good, their church services often revolve around conversation rather than being preached at and they allow and are happy to take part in gay civil ceromonies in their churches, which is the major draw in him converting.