Attempting to OU Mewtwo!? Impossible Task!?!? Help Wanted!

[MasterWGS]

****Original Title: Nerfing Ubers?****​

Okay, I had brought this up in the Request a Team thread, but I'm thinking about extending this process. A little idea I spawned while thinking about my favorite Ubers whom I'll never get to use again... (Well, competitively, anyways)

Is it possible to nature/EV/IV an uber to the point of where it's usable in competitive play? Say if I try to make a physical attacking Mewtwo. His maximum attack stat is 350, far lower than most physical sweepers in the OU play. Both of his defenses max out at 306, and that's with good natures. So long as I stray away from his abnormally high stats, wouldn't he, technically, be okay for competitive play?

Or Ho-Oh. It's obviously a physical attacker, so what if we based it totally on Special attack? Like Mewtwo's physical attack, it caps off at 350, lower than your standard Alakazam, Gengar, and even Lucario! Just give him a really negative Sp. Defense nature, and be sure to give him no EVs in that stat, and you could even go as far as checking for low IVs in certain stats...

This is just a thought I had, and if you guys would trust me enough, I'd like to try it for a little while. I'd be happy to not use them if you really detest it that much, but I think it could be sorta fun. All those Pokes in the Uber realm I thought looked cool could actually be used in a real battle, and people wouldn't explode on me...

****POST TITLE CHANGE****​

Okay, with the change of the name, the topic of discussion has shifted. Whether or not this is moral, I want to experiment, and I'm totally open to any sort of help anyone wants to give. I'm looking for tips on...

• A moral "Stat Capping" point.
• EV Spreads
• Movesets
• Offers To Help Testing

Any and all suggestions will be appreciated, so long as it's not flaming or topic bashing!

 

[Smarties-chan]

Making a Pokémon weaker on purpose is just ridiculous; it's like allowing a Modest Salamence with Rock Smash, Rollout, Bite and Facade in UU just because its moveset sucks. May I also point out that despite the fact that even though Mewtwo, for example, has lower Attack and Speed than Weavile and our other OU physical sweeping friends, it still has considerably much more bulk than OU Pokémon. Kyogre is also a prime example of this, though its Attack stat isn't Zomgwtfbbqhigh, a Choice Band Kyogre can rip teams apart thanks to its excellent type coverage. Also, you'd be surprised how effective a Choice Specs (Aka special attacking) Ho-oh can be provided it has Rapid Spin support; it's definitely good enough to completely dominate the OU metagame.

And what about the Ubers with balanced base stats or with both offensive stats being high? Do we give Mew 60- base power moves and allow it to be used in OU, should Attack form Deoxys become a Spiker with Toxic stalling action? I would think not as that'd simply be stupid. Ubers have their own tier and they should just stay there.

 

[MasterWGS]

Making a Pokémon weaker on purpose is just ridiculous;

That's what makes it so entertaining for me to think about. If my Mewtwo sucked, no one could really whine about it...

it's like allowing a Modest Salamence with Rock Smash, Rollout, Bite and Facade in UU just because its moveset sucks.

Yeah... What's your point? If the reason Ubers aren't allowed in the OU game is because they're too powerful, making them crappier in order to use them should be allowed, shouldn't it? I mean, if it is beatable by the standard metagame of the tier, is it really so bad? I know it's an absolutely insane/stupid idea, but I really like some Pokemon I've been barred from using.

May I also point out that despite the fact that even though Mewtwo, for example, has lower Attack and Speed than Weavile and our other OU physical sweeping friends, it still has considerably much more bulk than OU Pokémon.

True. After looking over his Defenses and HP, he is a tad unbalanced. However, if his IVs were bad enough, couldn't even this be remedied?

Kyogre is also a prime example of this, though its Attack stat isn't Zomgwtfbbqhigh, a Choice Band Kyogre can rip teams apart thanks to its excellent type coverage.

Yeah, I'll be honest, I really hadn't looked through the entire Uber list to make sure it would work. Just the few I'd consider. Some Ubers might just be impossible to nerf enough...

Also, you'd be surprised how effective a Choice Specs (Aka special attacking) Ho-oh can be provided it has Rapid Spin support; it's definitely good enough to completely dominate the OU metagame.

Is it really that much more effective than a typical special sweeper, though? I guess he does have better defenses, but again, IV nerfing might solve the problem...

And what about the Ubers with balanced base stats or with both offensive stats being high? Do we give Mew 60- base power moves and allow it to be used in OU, should Attack form Deoxys become a Spiker with Toxic stalling action? I would think not as that'd simply be stupid. Ubers have their own tier and they should just stay there.

If my intention was to totally pwn with the ubers, yes, the idea would be stupid. However, if I bring them down to the point of where they're usable, I'm just doing something odd that no one else would probably expect. I agree, the logic behind it isn't much, but if it suddenly becomes beatable, wouldn't separating Ubers and OUs be meaningless?

 

[Smarties-chan]

Yeah... What's your point? If the reason Ubers aren't allowed in the OU game is because they're too powerful, making them crappier in order to use them should be allowed, shouldn't it? I mean, if it is beatable by the standard metagame of the tier, is it really so bad? I know it's an absolutely insane/stupid idea, but I really like some Pokemon I've been barred from using.

There'd still be too many things that'll go wrong. First of all, I'm sure not everyone wants to spend their time looking for an Uber with a crappy nature and bad IVs and train it to be the worst it can be. If you try too hard to make an Uber bad, it'll just be outclassed by Pokémon that are meant for the role, which would result in no one using them anyway. Besides, having a well balanced team with 6 Pokémon having Pressure would be broken anyway. In OU this isn't possible because very few Pokémon outside Ubers have Pressure and actually work well together. And bad IVs and nature can only reduce a Pokémon's stat as much as the base stats allow them to. Lugia still has insane defenses with bad IVs and nature, the latter which can't even decrease both stats and EV training could still patch it up reasonably well.

True. After looking over his Defenses and HP, he is a tad unbalanced. However, if his IVs were bad enough, couldn't even this be remedied?

So now we have restrictions on how high a Pokémon's IVs can be? That will never work, seeing as a physical sweeping Mewtwo is still a perfectly valid set and after a couple of Bulk Ups, a super effective Ice Punch and Earthquake will hurt despite bad IVs. And once again, EV training helps, or are we going to ban that as well?

Yeah, I'll be honest, I really hadn't looked through the entire Uber list to make sure it would work. Just the few I'd consider. Some Ubers might just be impossible to nerf enough...

All Ubers can be nerfed enough. Give Deoxys nothing but Cosmic Power, Kyogre Rain Dance, Groudon Sunny Day, Mew Recycle etc. But despite how much this sounds like a good idea according to your logic, even you have to admit it just wouldn't work.

Is it really that much more effective than a typical special sweeper, though? I guess he does have better defenses, but again, IV nerfing might solve the problem...

Ho-oh only has 15 less base Sp.Attack than Azelf and an amazing movepool so yes, it would indeed dominate OU provided that it gets Rapid Spin support. IV nerfing wouldn't help and having IV restrictions is still the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

If my intention was to totally pwn with the ubers, yes, the idea would be stupid. However, if I bring them down to the point of where they're usable, I'm just doing something odd that no one else would probably expect. I agree, the logic behind it isn't much, but if it suddenly becomes beatable, wouldn't separating Ubers and OUs be meaningless?

Bringing them down to the level where OU Pokémon do their job better defeats the point of using them altogether as I already said.

 

[Faceless*]

May I also point out that despite the fact that even though Mewtwo, for example, has lower Attack and Speed than Weavile and our other OU physical sweeping friends, it still has considerably much more bulk than OU Pokémon.

Very incorrect :P Mewtwo outspeeds nearly everything with 130 base speed

 

[MasterWGS]

There'd still be too many things that'll go wrong. First of all, I'm sure not everyone wants to spend their time looking for an Uber with a crappy nature and bad IVs and train it to be the worst it can be. If you try too hard to make an Uber bad, it'll just be outclassed by Pokémon that are meant for the role, which would result in no one using them anyway. Besides, having a well balanced team with 6 Pokémon having Pressure would be broken anyway. In OU this isn't possible because very few Pokémon outside Ubers have Pressure and actually work well together. And bad IVs and nature can only reduce a Pokémon's stat as much as the base stats allow them to. Lugia still has insane defenses with bad IVs and nature, the latter which can't even decrease both stats and EV training could still patch it up reasonably well.

I'll be honest, I, personally, wouldn't want a full team of nerfed ubers. I'm just talking about one, or maybe two. I think the point you're missing is that I'm not doing this for strategic value (though, it might just happen due to it's "Huh?" value, commonly known as the element of suprise), I'm doing this because I simply love these Pokes. A lot of my team isn't the best OU Pokemon (some aren't even OU, for that matter), I just like the Pokemon themselves. No one gets upset if I use UU Pokes in the OU environment, but they will get upset if I use Uber Pokemon. However, I love Mewtwo. He's one of my favorites, and I'd love to use him in some actual battles. If I have to make him use his weaknesses in order to counter-balance his over-powered strengths, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the sake of using one of my favorites.

So now we have restrictions on how high a Pokémon's IVs can be? That will never work, seeing as a physical sweeping Mewtwo is still a perfectly valid set and after a couple of Bulk Ups, a super effective Ice Punch and Earthquake will hurt despite bad IVs. And once again, EV training helps, or are we going to ban that as well?

I understand that it can be used to the point of being too good still. I'm willing to side-step that. Again, I just really love Mewtwo, and I'd like to use him competitively. I know that it might be a strategic nightmare, and trying to nerf him to the point of being usable, yet still not crappy. I might have overdone it on how much I'd nerf him. I just want him to be within the strength confines of the OU environment.

All Ubers can be nerfed enough. Give Deoxys nothing but Cosmic Power, Kyogre Rain Dance, Groudon Sunny Day, Mew Recycle etc. But despite how much this sounds like a good idea according to your logic, even you have to admit it just wouldn't work.

I guess I phrased that wrong. Perhaps some Pokes can't be nerfed to the point of being usable in an OU battle. Some might need to be extreme one way or another.

Ho-oh only has 15 less base Sp.Attack than Azelf and an amazing movepool so yes, it would indeed dominate OU provided that it gets Rapid Spin support. IV nerfing wouldn't help and having IV restrictions is still the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I understand it seems foolish, and on any other Pokemon, it would be. Just try and understand this from my viewpoint:

I understand the banning of Uber Pokemon in competitive play. When used to their potential, they are far too strong for typical competitive play. It makes complete sense that they shouldn't be used.

However, one of my all-time favorite Pokes is one of the most Uber of all Ubers. Ever since I got into Pokemon, he's been my favorite. However, because of his stats, unless it is an all Uber fight, I can never use him competitively. Since none of the other Ubers really interest me (I just threw Ho-Oh out there for more potential ideas), I really don't want to raise an entire team of them. So, basically, I'm stuck never using one of my favorites, which saddens me.

Bringing them down to the level where OU Pokémon do their job better defeats the point of using them altogether as I already said.

Not when your point of using them is simply because you like the Pokemon. It may be pointless strategically, but for a nostalgia/favorite-style team, it makes at least some sense...

Here, maybe if I show you a Mewtwo concept I'm thinking of, it'll make more sense. Keep in mind that I'll have his IVs set to a point to where his defenses won't be extreme. Same goes for his speed. Also, keep in mind that this is an off-the-top-of-my-head moveset without much thought behind it yet...

Mewtwo @Lefties
Brave (to lower his speed, but still make his Attack okay)
252Attack/252Speed/6HP
Brick Break
Psycho Cut
Stone Edge/Twave
Recover

According to Serebii's Stat calculator, even with 31 IVs in everything, his stats come out to...
354
350
216
344
216
323

If I make sure his IVs in HP and speed aren't astounding, his stats won't seem so staggeringly high. Again, I know it seems brainless to purposely make a Pokemon weak, but my point of using him is for the cool factor that it's a Mewtwo. I just like the Pokemon, and would like the chance to use him.

 

[sims796]

I'm sorry Grant, but I must agree with Smarties. No matter how much you dumb it down, no matter how much you restrain it, everyone will see Mewtwo as an uber. Pretend I love the UU enviorment, but I also love Salamence. Do I give him sucky moves, EV's, and IV just to use him on UU? No. He is OU, and that is his class-until someone better knocks him down.

 

[MasterWGS]

I guess my thought is this.

The reason we separate Pokemon into tiers is the fact that they are unbalanced in a playing field together. If I work to eliminate those unbalanced stats, where does it stand to reason that they should remain separated? I understand that people will still see Mewtwo as an uber, because he is. His total stats are waay too much for the OU world to compete with. But if that's what separates him, and I can make him beatable (though still good, mind you), why would he still be shunned? Because he has the potential to be good? Because he CAN be dangerous, even though I chose for him not to be?

I see where you guys are coming from. As someone who hates to play against Ubers, I know how annoying it can be. But if the Uber is limited to the point of no longer having Uber-like stats, it doesn't seem like it should be a problem...

Ah, but maybe I'm missing the point to the whole tiers thing.

 

[sims796]

You kinda are...


Thats the whole reason Manaphy is restricted. Rain Dance + Rest+ Hydration= too damn strong. So do we say you can use Manaphy without Rest? No point. We give him an Uber label.

 

[MasterWGS]

You kinda are...


Thats the whole reason Manaphy is restricted. Rain Dance + Rest+ Hydration= too damn strong. So do we say you can use Manaphy without Rest? No point. We give him an Uber label.

Ah, but that is where I challenge everything! Is no one creative enough to make a working moveset without Rest for Manaphy? Though I haven't extensively looked into it, I'm sure there's a way to battle with Manaphy without using Rest. If it was possible, would he still be considered Uber?

I guess I'm thinking that Mewtwo is separated because of his intense stats. If I sedate his stats, or only use the stats that aren't as insane, it just seems like keeping him away suddenly makes no sesnse. If I refrain what using what makes him so "Uber," should he still be looked at as such?

Again, I just want to do this to use Mewtwo. If it's really that big of an issue, I won't do it. I was just wondering if this sort of thing has ever been done before.

 

[Anti]

The thing is, though, is that you can't make mewtwo's stats bad. It is TOO powerful to nerf its stats. And changing a pokemon's moveset, like manaphy, doesn't de-uberize it...it's still uber.

 

[luke]

How about you just use him in an Uber battle? There are some, including myself, that have Uber teams and battle others with them. Then, you can use them to their full potential, getting good IVs, move sets, etc. I honestly don't see why you have to "dumb" them down to use them. X.x;;

 

[Sora_8920]

There is a thing called "Uber Enviroement/play", or whatever. But no matter how much you try to resist it's strength or title as Uber, it will be an Uber, without iv's or any stats. Even without Ev training, if you use them right, they are considered Uber. And you will still be flamed and yelled at. No matter how you try to make him weaker, which is pretty dumb, as they will be always banned, he will still be uber. Ever since they called out the Uber list, they are Uber, because of their Extremely large movepool, stats, Abilties, etc. And their movesets are unlimited, meaning you can be creative and make up your own Movesets, as long as you don't make a Thread about here. That is pretty self-explanatory... Also, you can't make up a tier list yet, Mewtwo could be weakened down to Ou because of a Dark type, But he has now access to Aura Aphere, which takes care of them pretty silly. Sorry for the long post, but I think i'm going to go on a little be longer, even though i've pretty much summed up approximently everything there is know about Mewtwo being an Uber. Ubers are Ubers, and you can't deny that. Ever since they were concluded by evidence, like said before. Well, i've covered everything up now, and so.

 

[sims796]

Well put Itachi. Sorry, Grant.

 

[MasterWGS]

Well, if it'll be an issue, then I just won't use him around you guys. I still want to experiment with this, and maybe find a couple people who'd be willing to try this with me. Trust me, I totally understand where you're all coming from. In fact, if I didn't love Mewtwo so much, I'd probably be on your side.

Thanks for the input everybody, even if it is sadly not what I wanted to hear. If I actually go through with this, I'll PM some of you guys for friendlies to just test it out. If Mewtwo is obviously dominating everything, then I'll forget the project. If anyone wants to help out at all (Movesets, EV spreads, what stat-levels I should try to cap, etc.) I'd greatly appreciate it!

And sims, you don't need to apologize for having an opinion. :)

Oh, and Porygon, I know about the Uber metagame, but I prefer to not play on it. Mewtwo is the only Uber I want to use. Playing on the Uber field would make me need to make more Uber Pokemon on my team in order to survive. I like using my favorites, and (as shallow as it may seem) I do like winning with them, or at the very least, being able to compete with them and stand some sort of a chance. Unfortunately, I'm stuck since Mewtwo is my all-time favorite, and the rest of my faves swim in the OU, BL, and UU pool... However, if I end up training some good Ubers, I'll look you up for an Uber battle.

Itachi, thanks for the insight. I knew as soon as I saw Aura Sphere, it'd make my case that much tougher to push. But, like I said, I'd try to make him a physi-sweeper, and Aura Sphere is special. I'd probably go with Brick Break, just to avoid using the Uber SpAttack stat.

 

[sims796]

Well, imagine if I bought a water gun to school. Real looking. Just cause it is of no danger, doesn't mean I won't be expelled. But I will gladly test your Mewtwo :)

 

[MasterWGS]

*Title of topic changed to "Attempting to OU Mewtwo!? Impossible Task!?!? Help Wanted!*
(If a mod could make this official in the thread title, I'd be very happy!)​

Okay, so far, I've come up with this: A Physisweep Mewtwo!

Mewtwo @ Leftovers/Focus Sash(Do his defenses call for it? I'm not a good judge on this sorta stuff...)
Brave Nature
252 Attack/ 148 Special Defense/ 100 Speed/ 48 Defense
Brick Break
Psycho Cut
Thunder/Ice/Fire Punch? (Emerald Tutors)
Recover?

Brick Break for those pesky Dark types
Psycho Cut for STAB
One (or two) of the elemental punches for type coverage.
Recover to... recover, if his defenses allow for it. If not, swap with another Elemental Punch.

Other thoughts: Earthquake? Stone Edge/Rock Slide? Both are considerable...

 

[Smarties-chan]

Very incorrect :P Mewtwo outspeeds nearly everything with 130 base speed

I completely forgot how speedy Mewtwo actually is. o.o But at least Choice Scarf Heracross still outspeeds it. ;_;

*Title of topic changed to "Attempting to OU Mewtwo!? Impossible Task!?!? Help Wanted!*
(If a mod could make this official in the thread title, I'd be very happy!)

Okay, so far, I've come up with this: A Physisweep Mewtwo!

Mewtwo @ Leftovers/Focus Sash(Do his defenses call for it? I'm not a good judge on this sorta stuff...)
Brave Nature
252 Attack/ 148 Special Defense/ 100 Speed/ 48 Defense
Brick Break
Psycho Cut
Thunder/Ice/Fire Punch? (Emerald Tutors)
Recover?

Brick Break for those pesky Dark types
Psycho Cut for STAB
One (or two) of the elemental punches for type coverage.
Recover to... recover, if his defenses allow for it. If not, swap with another Elemental Punch.

Other thoughts: Earthquake? Stone Edge/Rock Slide? Both are considerable...

Thread title changed.

Also, physical Mewtwo still works just fine in Ubers and there's no reason for it not to work well outside Ubers.

Mewtwo @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP (possibly a bit more HP and a bit less Speed, but I'm no expert on Ubers so I don't know.)

- Bulk Up
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake/Brick Break
- Stone Edge/Selfdestruct/Taunt/Brick Break/Psycho Cut

Even if you are using Mewtwo's weaker Attack stat, it'll still be much stronger than most OUs. It's been said before and I'll say it again, if you want to use Mewtwo, play in Ubers. An Uber team doesn't necessarily even have to have more than one or two actual Ubers in it anyway.

But still, my point stands, just because you make a Pokémon bad on purpose doesn't mean it can compete outside its own tier. I personally love both Lugia and Giratina but I accept the fact that they're Ubers and don't try to make them something they aren't. And even if you use an Ubers lower stats, they still have considerably much bigger movepools and thus, possible set combinations, to be balanced in Ubers. Besides, even if it was possible to un-Uberify a couple of Ubers, what would happen to the rest? What if someone simply loves Deoxys but can't use it because you can't make it bad enough but still usable for Ubers? Do you honestly think any hardcore competitive battlers would accept adapting the metagame just so you can use one of your favorite Pokémon?

 

[Sora_8920]

Mewtwo @:Choice Band
Trait: Pressure
Adamant/Rash/Lonely Nature
Substitute/Return
Focus Punch/Brick Break/Drain Punch
Aerial Ace
Earthquake.

 

[Anti]

Mewtwo @:Choice Band
Trait: Pressure
Adamant/Rash/Lonely Nature
Substitute/Return
Focus Punch/Brick Break/Drain Punch
Aerial Ace
Earthquake.

Why would you use rash on a pokemon with no special attacks?

And the real way to weaken mewtwo would be making it a wall...it can learn amnesia and barrier...possibilties!