Changing Homosexuality?

[Masqueraine]

As in, offering a service to those seeking it out, that would enable them to be straight? Hypothetically speaking of course.

 

[Shining Raichu]

Uhh yes. Even forgetting the whole "being gay is OK" thing, and even if the gay person in question were more than willing to undergo this therapy out of self-loathing, the reason it is wrong is simple:

It does not work.

And it will mentally screw them up further than they already were to want the therapy in the first place. The only therapy for gay people should be encouragement for them to accept themselves for who they are. You cannot pray away the gay.

 

[Hybrid Trainer]

Yea its very wrong and unnatural. It'd be like giving somebody therapy to go from being a big black woman to become a small white man.

 

[Åzurε]

I haven't considered this much consciously. Could be interesting.

Uhh yes. Even forgetting the whole "being gay is OK" thing, and even if the gay person in question were more than willing to undergo this therapy out of self-loathing,

Assuming it would be out of self-loathing or involuntary. If somebody wants to do it, why prevent them? It's their life, and they can do what they want.

the reason it is wrong is simple:

It does not work.

Why not? What's wrong with the methodology or anything else that makes it not work?

And it will mentally screw them up further than they already were to want the therapy in the first place.

Assuming they'd have to be screwed up to want it.

The only therapy for gay people should be encouragement for them to accept themselves for who they are. You cannot pray away the gay.

If they want to change, why not? If I'm overweight, I have the ability to work off the fat, even if I'm genetically predisposed to it. If I have a bad habit, I have the ability to kill that off. It's largely a mental thing, and being straight is just as healthy mentally as being gay, isn't it?

 

[FreakyLocz14]

It's a matter of free choice, imo. If somebody who is of legal age wishes to willingly squander their money on something that doesn't work, be my guest. When our tax dollars go to fund it, that's where I take a stand.

 

[Alternative]

To be honest, I thought this thread was about say, giving a homoerotic massage or something. :P

But anyway, I think it's wrong to try and help someone go from gay to straight in most terms. If it's the person in question who wishes to undertake this sort of therapy to try and have some straight thoughts, then that's their business, and I will support that, but in terms of it being forced, or some sort of intervention to try and convert someone from being gay to straight is just wrong. Like straightness, being gay is a part of life, and a part of people. It's something you have to deal with all the time and if you don't like it, then don't convene with these sorts of people.

 

[NurseBarbra]

I haven't considered this much consciously. Could be interesting.



Assuming it would be out of self-loathing or involuntary. If somebody wants to do it, why prevent them? It's their life, and they can do what they want.


Why not? What's wrong with the methodology or anything else that makes it not work?


Assuming they'd have to be screwed up to want it.


If they want to change, why not? If I'm overweight, I have the ability to work off the fat, even if I'm genetically predisposed to it. If I have a bad habit, I have the ability to kill that off. It's largely a mental thing, and being straight is just as healthy mentally as being gay, isn't it?

Can I slap you?
Yes being gay is a mental thing BUT.
1. You're born with being gay, It's hard wired into your brain.
2. It's not like being overweight. It's your physical and emotional attraction to someone. SOMETHING THAT ISN'T A CHOICE OF "Oh I feel like not being gay today." Being "Healthy Mentally" means being happy with yourself just the way you are, not by fitting it with "norms".
/rant

The "Pray the gay away" stuff is complete and utter BS laid down by socity to keep the "norms".
If, and sorry for the utter bluntness, someone doesn't like themselves, ergo: the fact that they are gay/leisbein and go to one of those... things, then tough, You don't like being yourself? Then join the rest of the world. It's called life. If it was ment to be easy, you wouldn't have to work so hard to make a good life for yourself. Personally, I don't like the fact that I grow more height than muscle, which makes me taller than everyone I know nearly.
Sorry for the rant but these things just piss me off.

 

[Eliminator Jr.]

It's entirely the choice of the person undergoing the therapy. There's nothing wrong with the practice of "homosexual therapy" providing the patient wants to be there (for example, they're having gay feelings that they are not comfortable with). As long as nobody is forced to be there and our taxes are not paying for it I'm perfectly fine with it.

 

[Sydian]

To be honest, I thought this thread was about say, giving a homoerotic massage or something. :P

Yeah, I was like "what's wrong with getting a massage from a gay man?" when I saw the title.

And it's wrong to force this on someone, but if said homosexual just...hates being homosexual that much, then they can go get therapy for it I suppose. But I'm not saying that'll work. Their choice to get the therapy, not their choice that they're homosexual. There's really nothing that can be done about that. Hopefully in that therapy session, if anything, it would open that person's eyes to the fact that what can't be changed just...can't be changed.

 

[Zet]

The only way to make a gay man straight, is to alter the gay gene into the straight gene. The same is applied to a lesbian.

Though therapy never helps in these cases, the person only lies to themselves, and to the people they love.

 

[Masqueraine]

I expected more sympathy from this crowd. Being as accepting as this community comes off towards transgenders, gays, lesbians and so on, I expected you to be just as understanding towards people in this case. While some people feel like they were born in the wrong body, and consider themselves the opposite gender, I can also see this applying to gay people who feel like they won't truly be happy unless they're straight. It makes sense to me, whether it has to do with a strong religious belief, or a strong personal belief, everybody is entitled to their own happiness however they go about creating it.

 

[Gymnotide]

Debating this is...
Out of my interests

Just like transgenderism, this topic is subjective.

It's a matter of free choice, imo. If somebody who is of legal age wishes to willingly squander their money on something that doesn't work, be my guest. When our tax dollars go to fund it, that's where I take a stand.

This, tbh.

 

[Zet]

I expected more sympathy from this crowd. Being as accepting as this community comes off towards transgenders, gays, lesbians and so on, I expected you to be just as understanding towards people in this case. While some people feel like they were born in the wrong body, and consider themselves the opposite gender, I can also see this applying to gay people who feel like they won't truly be happy unless they're straight. It makes sense to me, whether it has to do with a strong religious belief, or a strong personal belief, everybody is entitled to their own happiness however they go about creating it.

This community can accept people for who they are, no one can understand what another person goes through unless they have been through that themselves. I take it that you think that believing in lies is better for everyone despite the damage it causes? If so, I truly hope you can stop being ignorant on the matter, since the only way for a person to find their own happiness is to be themselves, if they feel like they should be of the opposite sex, no one on this community will stop them.

 

[Captain Fabio]

Uhh yes. Even forgetting the whole "being gay is OK" thing, and even if the gay person in question were more than willing to undergo this therapy out of self-loathing, the reason it is wrong is simple:

It does not work.

And it will mentally screw them up further than they already were to want the therapy in the first place. The only therapy for gay people should be encouragement for them to accept themselves for who they are. You cannot pray away the gay.

Yea its very wrong and unnatural. It'd be like giving somebody therapy to go from being a big black woman to become a small white man.

Guys and girls, I might be mistaken, but the title is, 'is OFFERING homosexual therapy wrong?' not 'is being forced homosexual therapy wrong?' Now that would be wrong! XD

There could be different reasons why a person could want to see therapy, so I don't think it is wrong, it is down to their own personal experience and feelings.​

​

 

[Gymnotide]

Okay fine. I guess I'll partake.
I'll outline the points for / against and be as nonpartisan as I can.

Arguments For

1. Homosexuality is wrong, so changing it is the best course of action.
   • Reply: get with the current century.
   • You can argue that if the individual does not undergo the procedure, they will suffer acts of homophobia. This is true, however also implies that society itself is the cause of hatred (not homosexuality itself). Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them? To die, to sleep, no more. It's not the person we need to fix.
2. It would be choice-based and therefore moral.
   • Is this truly choice, or is it societal pressure? Fundamentally speaking (read: FUNDAMENTALLY speaking), the only conceivable reason why homosexuality could be deemed inappropriate is due to society.
   • I'm anorexic. I choose not to eat.
3. It is the same case as transgender procedures.
   • Gender is also a social construct. The idea that a sex can be wrong is so, again, fundamentally human. We ascribe genders to sexes, which causes confusion amongst many. This process is a shame that cannot be erased. If we never began with the idea that this-gender-does-this and that-gender-does-that, sex could never be wrong (evolutionarily and biologically speaking, this is impossible).
   • The thing about transgender issues is that they are physical and can therefore be changed tangibly. Your physical sex does not define who you yourself are, so changing it is much less drastic than changing your mind. A shift in mentality takes willpower, something which you might argue for, but is conceivably out of reach.
   • Do not make these things analogues.
4. You can change bad habits (a mental idea), so why not sexuality?
   • They're called "bad" habits for a reason. If we promote the idea that sexuality can be changed under this ideology, it implies that the pre-change sexuality is wrong or undesired in a way (not just by the individual, but by the collective).
   • Nail-biting and other bad habits are more often than not physically manifested (yes, it is psychological, but it manifests physically). Homosexuality is only a mental idea.
   • The treatment for "solving" a bad habit is more often than not diversion, and if not that, then conditioning. You either pick something to distract from that bad habit or you make it so the habit somehow is repulsive to the individual (such as painting the nails with bitter coating to prevent nail-biting). The first one can only distract from sexuality in general, not hetero- or homosexuality specifically. You can only perform the second by punishing the individual whenever he has undesired inclinations.
     • Regarding the former point: you cannot change sexuality in this way, only distract from it. If you attempt to distract using heterosexuality, then that only elicits more homosexual thought. You can either block out all sexual thoughts or none at all--this does not achieve the goal (and is no better than existing therapies for sex-addicts).
     • Regarding the latter point: this can only be achieved through mental policing, an idea which George Orwell makes clear is bad news bears. Even if you stopped a homosexual from engaging in homosexual activities, looking at homosexual material, nothing is stopping him from thinking homosexual thoughts. The idea of punishment is also fundamentally wrong: how do you punish someone for their thoughts?
5. It will be beneficial for the individual (because they want it; it will help them in some way; it will grant stability).
   • Unfortunately, the mental condition here isn't that homosexuality equals instability; it's that inability to accept homosexuality equals instability. READ: Stability is granted by quelling the conflict, not the cause of conflict.
   • This is subjective. All individuals have differing reasons for their actions; you cannot gauge the hypothetical effect this procedure can have on a person. What if they were better off beforehand? What if they didn't know any better?

Argument Against

• Being gay is okay. The only true "therapy" is accepting oneself.
  • This I have no words for. Being gay is beautiful. Whether or not someone says it's okay, or it's right (biologically or morally), it will still remain beautiful. In fact, half the beauty of it is the fact that homosexuals can endure prosecution. Realistically speaking, "homophobia" has been beneficial to homosexuals--it has brought them together, opened up their eyes to what hatred is truly like and left them with the desire to combat it. At a certain level, yes, homophobia--and any terminology that denounces homosexuality as "wrong"--is a definite negative, stripping individuals of their identity, condemning them, putting their faces in shame. However, conquering this idea, rising above it, paying no heed to it (no matter how difficult that may be) is where I am truly moved. If I could, I would like to be there for anyone who has found difficulty in achieving this--but, ideally, I also hope that society can change. Rather than advocating that "accepting oneself" is the key, I'd like to go further and lament the fact that we need to be told this at all, or that there would be those that oppose this.
• It won't work. You're born with homosexuality.
  • It can work, conceivably. Other mental procedures do work. If (IF) we could find a way, then it could work.
  • If we base sexuality off of biology, and biology as alterable, then it could potentially be changed.
    • But, is this any better than genetic modification?
• It's wrong / unnatural. We shouldn't give people the message that something about them needs to be changed.
  • This is subjective and one may want to undergo the procedure based on their own beliefs (though, this cannot be gauged by the one administering it).
• It's a form of self-denial; it will generate more probems than it solves.
  • This is true, but how much does self matter anymore in society? For some people (read: for SOME people), conformity is the only way into mental stabillity.
  • Concede that ignorance is bliss. If they feel happy not accepting the truth, then why stop them?
  • This argument falls into the debate over the value of truth, which I will not go into.
• Gay men give better massages.
  • lol lern 2 read

 

[Renii]

Gymnotide: Wow. Way too much time in your hands.

The process of changing a gay person into a straight one... it is just painful. And that really doesn't change you as a person. Sexuality goes beyond "mental disorders."
Majority of gay people, especially in conservative cities, prefer to stay in the closet all their lives, do you think they're happy? That is exactly the situation one will be in after such a therapy.

And why should one support something that allows people to become what they're not.

Trying to change your sexuality is not like getting a boobjob or a nosejob people, it affects you as a person.

More over, I really want to see how many people against and for the topic are actually homosexual (outed.) I just don't think straight people or closeted people can really understand this topic or provide useful opinions.

 

[Gymnotide]

Gymnotide: Wow. Way too much time in your hands.

The process of changing a gay person into a straight one... it is just painful. And that really doesn't change you as a person. Sexuality goes beyond "mental disorders."
Majority of gay people, especially in conservative cities, prefer to stay in the closet all their lives, do you think they're happy? That is exactly the situation one will be in after such a therapy.

And why should one support something that allows people to become what they're not.

Trying to change your sexuality is not like getting a boobjob or a nosejob people, it affects you as a person.

More over, I really want to see how many people against and for the topic are actually homosexual (outed.) I just don't think straight people or closeted people can really understand this topic or provide useful opinions.

I wrote it during DBE while talking on Tumblr.
'Tis summer. Do what I want lol <3

 

[Shining Raichu]

Why not? What's wrong with the methodology or anything else that makes it not work?

Assuming they'd have to be screwed up to want it.

If they want to change, why not? If I'm overweight, I have the ability to work off the fat, even if I'm genetically predisposed to it. If I have a bad habit, I have the ability to kill that off. It's largely a mental thing, and being straight is just as healthy mentally as being gay, isn't it?

1. It is extremely well-documented that none of these therapies work.

2. Speaking as a gay person, yes, you would have to be screwed up to want these therapies. Unfortunately because of society, a lot of gay people are screwed up.

3. Yes, being straight is just as mentally healthy as being gay. But the point is they are not straight, and giving them false hope that one day they could be is wrong. I honestly don't see what point you're trying to make here. Being gay isn't fat you can work off. It's there and it's for life and making people think otherwise is only setting them up for a huge fall. That's why it's wrong to offer the therapies.

Guys and girls, I might be mistaken, but the title is, 'is OFFERING homosexual therapy wrong?' not 'is being forced homosexual therapy wrong?' Now that would be wrong! XD​

​

Yeah I understood that lol, but the mere offer is disturbing enough. I understand that people are against stopping doing anything that they choose to do. I use that same argument about abortion, gay marriage and a whole host of other things - if someone wants to do something, nobody has the right to stop them. But this is different. This isn't telling somebody they can't do something, this is never making the offer in the first place. It is a therapy that is proven not to work and I very much doubt it was created by people who had the best interests of gay people in mind.

On that same point, it is very much worth noting that the subject is not "Is it wrong for gay people to attend therapies to become straight?" it is "Is it wrong to offer these therapies", which I think it is.

 

[Legobricks]

I don't hold any issue with offerances of a service like this, so long as they don't treat it as a disorder (which they often do, it apparently largely being religious groups that do these things) and the partakers want to be there. Homosexuality is possibly not something to be 'cured' but if people don't want to be gay, if they want to change, then that's fine by me. I don't imagine therapy to help much though, if at all; it's more of a selfly-willful thing to me. I'm in a not-dissimilar position myself; not keen on details here but I make myself what I want. Now, have I sullied my mind? No. I'm not following this thinking that suggests so. Perhaps I'm lying to myself, but only that at worst.

 

[Eliminator Jr.]

I take it that you think that believing in lies is better for everyone despite the damage it causes? If so, I truly hope you can stop being ignorant on the matter, since the only way for a person to find their own happiness is to be themselves, if they feel like they should be of the opposite sex, no one on this community will stop them.

I think you missed the point of Masqueraine's post entirely - he was saying that some homosexual people feel like they wouldn't be happy unless they were straight, not: some homosexual people will only be happy if they become straight.

I think it's a little more close-minded/ignorant to say "the only way for a person to find their own happiness is to be themselves" - that's like going "you're not allowed to do this treatment because you should be happy being gay". Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to tell someone whether they're happy/will be happy or not? If somebody wants to try and become straight then why not let them?