Changing Homosexuality?

[Nihilego]

Nah, I think I'd find being offered therapy if I was gay just because of my sexuality absolutely insulting. Being gay is not an abnormality, and if an individual is happy being gay then they won't want to change and if they aren't happy they'll seek out help themselves.

Imo if someone is offered therapy or treatment for something, even if it's not forced, that implies that whatever this something may be is being considered a problem and I consider that to be thoroughly wrong when talking about homosexuality.

 

[Eliminator Jr.]

Just to clarify, in my last two posts I just realised I didn't address the actual topic (I stand by what I said in my last two posts, though). Actually going up to a person and saying "you're gay, do you want me to help change that?" is extremely rude and I would definitely agree it is wrong. Actually having the therapy available for people to use I am in complete support of, however.

It's like religions, I'm happy for them to exist but if they doorknock and try to force their beliefs down my throat then that's where I have the problem. I'm more than happy for this type of therapy to be available but I don't agree with somebody going up to a gay person and saying "I can help you stop being gay" - that's just rude.

 

[Esper]

In an ideal world it wouldn't be wrong to want to change your orientation because there's nothing inherently wrong with giving people options and nothing inherently wrong with being straight (or any other orientation). It would be (again, in an ideal world), like finding a new hobby, finding religion, or getting a new hairstyle: ultimately up to you and no one's business to question.

The problem is that in our world you get a lot of baggage with the idea, mostly along the lines of all-non-heteronormative-things-are-wrong. It's a big point among the gay community that being gay is something you're born with. While I'm not going to doubt that for most people that's true, I do think it's possible that some people aren't necessarily born that way. In my ideal world that distinction shouldn't matter because no one would care why you're gay because being gay wouldn't be an issue for anyone in the first place, but because in this world there are a lot of people who are anti-gay everyone who isn't straight needs to defend themselves and one of the most common ways is by showing people that being gay is something you're born as. Anything that says otherwise is seen as a general attack on gay people because it's untrue for most of them and many people would believe that if one person was gay by anything other than birth then all gay people must be the same. It's faulty logic, but a lot of people would believe it and it would be fuel for people who want to see gay people go away.

So there's nothing wrong with the idea itself, just the way it's applied and how people would interpret it.

 

[Masqueraine]

Alright, so I really worded the op wrong. XD I'm gonna edit it, and for those of you who replied to it specifically, I mean in general is it wrong to seek out or even exist. Or like offer in a way that puts it out there for people to be able to utilize if they'd like to. I agree that if somebody asks you if you'd like to be straight without you asking, that's kind of offensive.
I'll respond to more people in a little bit, but right now I'd like to say Eliminator's sentiments are mine exactly.

 

[Chikara]

...I'll be the other side of the opinion :D

Okay. Get this.

OP said

offering a service to those seeking it out, that would enable them to be straight?

I don't see what's so wrong about offering the service?? Yeah, it might not work, but if someone seriously wants help, what's the big deal :/ For some homosexuals, it IS just a state of mind. It's NOT that important to them, and it MIGHT be ruining their life. Putting all homosexuals in a lump by saying "if you're gay, you're gay" and "if you're gay, YOU WILL ALWAYS BE GAY" is kinda unfair.

Even if it doesn't work, people who decide that being gay is getting in the way of their life, and consciously WANT to seek help, I don't see what's so wrong with doing that.

SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS, it's not wrong to like... offer the service, it's not wrong to accept the help... What makes it wrong is when family members or whoever force someone to use the services.




....also, keep in mind I'm not a homophobe or anything, but it's just kinda unfair to completely rule it out.

 

[Blue Nocturne]

I think it's a very sad thing that some people, for whatever reason, want "therapy" for their sexual orientation. I also agree that denying who you are is likely to do far more harm than good, but at the end of the therapy session, it's the individual's choice.

What I don't like is people telling me that I should be "Seeing someone for disgusting urges." and people treating me as if I have a disease. I haven't spoken to someone who used to be a good friend of mine for 7 months for suggesting such a thing. I find it quite disturbing that people are willing to treat each other in such rude ways over something as small as sexual preference.

 

[Oryx]

More over, I really want to see how many people against and for the topic are actually homosexual (outed.) I just don't think straight people or closeted people can really understand this topic or provide useful opinions.

That's pretty insulting tbh. That's like saying that skinny people have no say in a tax based on your weight, just because they're not affected by it directly.

This is another one of those freedom ideas. How far does freedom go? Obviously it doesn't extend to the freedom to hurt others by exercising them, but what if the only one hurt is yourself? Do you have the freedom to cause harm to yourself if you choose to? There are psychics out there that are obvious frauds, but people are free to give their money to them. You're also free to take a gamble at a low chance of winning, knowing that you'll probably lose but hoping for that sliver of a chance of succeeding. If you wanted, you're free to lock yourself in one room your entire life, send out for food, never speak, as long as you had the money, no matter what it does to your mind. While many of you claim that it will mess up someone's mind so it should be banned - if they choose that path for themselves, who are you to stop them?

What if there was a requirement that every counselor give certain brochures to the client, explaining the risks of "therapy" and the chances of success? Or if before they're allowed to go there, they have to attend once a week classes for a month, and if they still decide that they can never feel at home like that, they can go through with it? I'm all for protecting people, but I'm also all for freedom of choice.

 

[Gymnotide]

Putting some edits in my overall viewpoint. No one has addressed anything that I've said yet.

This debate ultimately boils down to three factors:
(1) Whether having the therapy available is right / wrong (individualistically and overall).
(2) Whether having the therapy available is beneficial / harmful (individualistically and overall).
(3) Whether or not the therapy could happen; could work (no viable methods have been mentioned, and I highly doubt any one of you can propose one).

I've ordered my points based on these three factors; in that order.

Arguments For

1. Homosexuality is wrong, so changing it is the best course of action.
   • Reply: get with the current century.
   • You can argue that if the individual does not undergo the procedure, they will suffer acts of homophobia. This is true, however also implies that society itself is the cause of hatred (not homosexuality itself). Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them? To die, to sleep, no more. It's not the person we need to fix.
2. It would be choice-based and therefore moral.
   • Is this truly choice, or is it societal pressure? Fundamentally speaking (read: FUNDAMENTALLY speaking), the only conceivable reason why homosexuality could be deemed inappropriate is due to society.
   • I'm anorexic. I choose not to eat.
3. It is right only if the person is not okay with being gay.
   • This goes back to the question of "why is he/she not okay in the first place?" Again, half societal pressures (which can be overcome), and half personal pressures (which are of no fault to the individual; therefore no individual should change so conform to these pressures).
   • Again, subjective, though. This differs for every person--if it's unbearable and the individual cannot escape (e.g. if the person is extremely devout, or if their family has rejected them), then perhaps it's a good idea, but probably not what is moral. However, I have met people who have suffered the extreme of this kind of torture who have continued to remain homosexual--it's just how much strength that individual has, and how much the people around him/her influence him/her; conceded that this may not be enough for some people, but that's no consolation on society's part.
4. You can't change society.
   • While this might be true on a macro-level, it's definitely not true on an individualistic or communal level.
5. It will be beneficial for the individual (because they want it; it will help them in some way; it will grant stability).
   • Unfortunately, the mental condition here isn't that homosexuality equals instability; it's that inability to accept homosexuality equals instability. READ: Stability is granted by quelling the conflict, not the cause of conflict.
   • This is subjective. All individuals have differing reasons for their actions; you cannot gauge the hypothetical effect this procedure can have on a person. What if they were better off beforehand? What if they didn't know any better?
6. It is the same case as transgender procedures.
   • Gender is also a social construct. The idea that a sex can be wrong is so, again, fundamentally human. We ascribe genders to sexes, which causes confusion amongst many. This process is a shame that cannot be erased. If we never began with the idea that this-gender-does-this and that-gender-does-that, sex could never be wrong (evolutionarily and biologically speaking, this is impossible).
   • The thing about transgender issues is that they are physical and can therefore be changed tangibly. Your physical sex does not define who you yourself are, so changing it is much less drastic than changing your mind. A shift in mentality takes willpower, something which you might argue for, but is conceivably out of reach.
   • Do not make these things analogues.
7. You can change bad habits (a mental idea), so why not sexuality?
   • They're called "bad" habits for a reason. If we promote the idea that sexuality can be changed under this ideology, it implies that the pre-change sexuality is wrong or undesired in a way (not just by the individual, but by the collective).
   • Nail-biting and other bad habits are more often than not physically manifested (yes, it is psychological, but it manifests physically). Homosexuality is only a mental idea.
   • The treatment for "solving" a bad habit is more often than not diversion, and if not that, then conditioning. You either pick something to distract from that bad habit or you make it so the habit somehow is repulsive to the individual (such as painting the nails with bitter coating to prevent nail-biting). The first one can only distract from sexuality in general, not hetero- or homosexuality specifically. You can only perform the second by punishing the individual whenever he has undesired inclinations.
     • Regarding the former point: you cannot change sexuality in this way, only distract from it. If you attempt to distract using heterosexuality, then that only elicits more homosexual thought. You can either block out all sexual thoughts or none at all--this does not achieve the goal (and is no better than existing therapies for sex-addicts).
     • Regarding the latter point: this can only be achieved through mental policing, an idea which George Orwell makes clear is bad news bears. Even if you stopped a homosexual from engaging in homosexual activities, looking at homosexual material, nothing is stopping him from thinking homosexual thoughts. The idea of punishment is also fundamentally wrong: how do you punish someone for their thoughts?

Argument Against

• Being gay is okay. The only true "therapy" is accepting oneself.
  • This I have no words for. Being gay is beautiful. Whether or not someone says it's okay, or it's right (biologically or morally), it will still remain beautiful. In fact, half the beauty of it is the fact that homosexuals can endure prosecution. Realistically speaking, "homophobia" has been beneficial to homosexuals--it has brought them together, opened up their eyes to what hatred is truly like and left them with the desire to combat it. At a certain level, yes, homophobia--and any terminology that denounces homosexuality as "wrong"--is a definite negative, stripping individuals of their identity, condemning them, putting their faces in shame. However, conquering this idea, rising above it, paying no heed to it (no matter how difficult that may be) is where I am truly moved. If I could, I would like to be there for anyone who has found difficulty in achieving this--but, ideally, I also hope that society can change. Rather than advocating that "accepting oneself" is the key, I'd like to go further and lament the fact that we need to be told this at all, or that there would be those that oppose this.
• It's wrong / unnatural. We shouldn't give people the message that something about them needs to be changed.
  • This is subjective and one may want to undergo the procedure based on their own beliefs (though, this cannot be gauged by the one administering it).
• It's a form of self-denial; it will generate more problems than it solves.
  • This is true, but how much does self matter anymore in society? For some people (read: for SOME people), conformity is the only way into mental stabillity.
  • Concede that ignorance is bliss. If they feel happy not accepting the truth, then why stop them?
  • This argument falls into the debate over the value of truth, which I will not go into.
• Having the treatment available has negative implications in and of itself.
  • Don't actually have a counterargument for this. I agree.
  • It would stir more doubt, diminish self-confidence, establish a cult of right-and-wrong, and breed false hope (since, as aforementioned, nothing mentioned thus far works).
• It won't work. You're born with homosexuality.
  • It can work, conceivably. Other mental procedures do work. If (IF) we could find a way, then it could work.
  • If we base sexuality off of biology, and biology as alterable, then it could potentially be changed.
    • But, is this any better than genetic modification?
• Gay men give better massages.
  • lol lern 2 read

 

[Brittani]

lololololol! I totally lmao'd at this question XD Is offering service to republicans to become democrats wrong? You can't offer a service to people with a problem that is simply, their opinion and their personality. If they simply are not attracted to men/women, there is nothing, and I repeat nothing you can do to change the way they are attracted, or the way they think. Let me rephrase, you can offer a service for it, but to do so is hilarious unwise. Nothing will work. I'm sure that if they were homo to begin with, they probably don't want to become straight, unless they are not truly homo. If your truly homo (Attracted to the same sex) then you do not want to become attracted to the opposite, kind of like straight people don't seek service to become gay. Hope this made you rethink this over lol.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

lololololol! I totally lmao'd at this question XD Is offering service to republicans to become democrats wrong? You can't offer a service to people with a problem that is simply, their opinion and their personality. If they simply are not attracted to men/women, there is nothing, and I repeat nothing you can do to change the way they are attracted, or the way they think. Let me rephrase, you can offer a service for it, but to do so is hilarious unwise. Nothing will work. I'm sure that if they were homo to begin with, they probably don't want to become straight, unless they are not truly homo. If your truly homo (Attracted to the same sex) then you do not want to become attracted to the opposite, kind of like straight people don't seek service to become gay. Hope this made you rethink this over lol.

I'm going to completely ignore the trolling in the beginning of your post and say that there are plenty of people who were "homo to begin with" who seek out these therapies because they want to fit in and to not be discriminated against.

 

[Shining Raichu]

For some homosexuals, it IS just a state of mind. It's NOT that important to them, and it MIGHT be ruining their life. Putting all homosexuals in a lump by saying "if you're gay, you're gay" and "if you're gay, YOU WILL ALWAYS BE GAY" is kinda unfair.

Umm... what? Am I reading this correctly? The fact alone that these therapies do not work definitively proves that if someone is gay they are gay, and always will be, no matter how much repression and brainwashing you attempt to inflict upon them. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, but they have not found a way to successfully change a sexual orientation, and your idea that "in some people, gay is just a state of mind" seems a little ignorant and is more than a little offensive, tbh.

I really have no interesting in starting anything, but I just saw that and thought... "wow".

 

[Chikara]

Umm... yep? That's exactly what I was talking about. The only thing that could have made what I said ignorant is by saying "oh well, being gay is just a state of mind". Not everyone's the same, not all situations are completely uniform. People go through things. Crap happens. All I said was if someone wants to try to become straight, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it :|

I probably could have worded it different but um? Gotta be a butt about it?

 

[Shining Raichu]

Umm... yep? That's exactly what I was talking about. The only thing that could have made what I said ignorant is by saying "oh well, being gay is just a state of mind". Not everyone's the same, not all situations are completely uniform. People go through things. Crap happens. All I said was if someone wants to try to become straight, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it :|

I probably could have worded it different but um? Gotta be a butt about it?

Not all situations are completely uniform, but there has not been one situation documented where gay was just a state of mind that could be wiped away. I know my antibiotics never kicked in...

Anyway, I'm not going any further on this point. As I said, I wasn't trying to start anything and I can see already that arguing with you would be a pointless effort.

 

[Gymnotide]

Umm... what? Am I reading this correctly? The fact alone that these therapies do not work definitively proves that if someone is gay they are gay, and always will be, no matter how much repression and brainwashing you attempt to inflict upon them. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, but they have not found a way to successfully change a sexual orientation, and your idea that "in some people, gay is just a state of mind" seems a little ignorant and is more than a little offensive, tbh.

I really have no interesting in starting anything, but I just saw that and thought... "wow".

It's not that they don't "work" per se, but that they "work" ineffectively. As I've mentioned before, all methods that have been suggested so far approach the issue in the wrong way because they make sexuality analogous with physical traits / manifestations.

There is no way to divert attention from homosexuality alone (only sexuality in general), and there is no way to condition against homosexuality (because you can't police, promote, or punish thought). The former is the solution that can be taken, but does not solve the problem at hand directly (but it does solve it in a way by suppressing all sexuality).

IF and ONLY IF the advocates of therapy can formulate a way to administer the therapy will they be vindicated--though, I doubt this will occur.

Umm... yep? That's exactly what I was talking about. Not everyone's the same, not all situations are completely uniform. All I said was if someone wants to try to become straight, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it :|

I probably could have worded it different but um? Gotta be a butt about it?

Again, the three points manifest in this argument--

If we're questioning morality (point 1): why do they want to change at all? I've addressed this thoroughly, but apparently none of what I say gets read on PC anyway -___-

It's either because of (1) environmental pressure or (2) societal pressure. It is inherently not a personal matter because there is nothing inherently personally undesirable to be homosexual. Addressing (1), it brings to question whether or not this proposed therapy is beneficial (point 2) to the individual--if they are in an environment where even those close to them would castigate them, then it's dubious whether or not they would be "better off" being with those people. Addressing (2), conformity never equals correctness. However, as I've also addressed--as your point details--sometimes the connections to environmental factors (family, friends, faith, community, etc.) is too great to leave / transcend / overcome; sometimes ignorance (through conformity) is bliss.

Therefore, I agree that the matter is subjective, but I do not agree that it is subjective at such a base level that you imply.

Also, you still haven't suggested a method in which this therapy can be used (point 3).

- - - - -

Though, no one will read this, so why bother?

 

[Zet]

I think you missed the point of Masqueraine's post entirely - he was saying that some homosexual people feel like they wouldn't be happy unless they were straight, not: some homosexual people will only be happy if they become straight.

I think it's a little more close-minded/ignorant to say "the only way for a person to find their own happiness is to be themselves" - that's like going "you're not allowed to do this treatment because you should be happy being gay". Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to tell someone whether they're happy/will be happy or not? If somebody wants to try and become straight then why not let them?

You're right, I did say if someone is happy trying to become straight they should do it because they're being who they are! thanks for backing up my point.

 

[Esper]

Though, no one will read this, so why bother?

1) on morality: this kind of service would be somewhat immoral depending on how it was offered. If it's just something there for people to investigate themselves then that's not very immoral. If it's being pushed on people who aren't interested (or others are pushing on behalf of the service and the service isn't trying to stop this) then you're in immoral territory.

2) on benefit: probably not a whole lot overall. Since, like I said in my first post, there is a lot of baggage with this idea it's going to come off badly in most cases. It implies that being gay is wrong, which it isn't, and that can cause some distress for gay people who may feel like they have to change because it's 'wrong' rather than for any other kind of personal reason. To my mind there is no benefit to making someone feel bad even if you intend to make them feel better after. If anything it's harm being done.

3) usefulness: I don't know how well therapy can do to change someone's sexual desires. At best it could probably help channel them toward something else. I'm not very well read on psychology and psychiatry though so I can't really say.

 

[Sage Harpuia]

Hey, nice (and difficult) question that we have here :)
However I have a nice metaphore to explaine my thought:

there is a world where humans, sometimes, have an extra arm. Its nor good or bad, is just something you have. Someone discovers it from childhood, someone after some time.
Then there are two types of three-armed people:
-People that likes their extra arm, feels comfortable with it, etc...
-People that doesn't like it, they feel it like something alien from them... well, I don't see why they should accept it, if there are doctors that can remove it.
However, if they feel in this way because people discriminate them, well, the doctor should realize this and try to tell the person if they really hate their arm.

 

[Dawn]

I... don't understand the question. I also don't understand how other people seem to understand it. |D

Are we like, asking if it would be right?

To be honest, I believe that one's orientation is naturally decided by a formula encompassing the result of many/"all" of one's life experiences. A complex formula due to the sheer amount of variables. I doubt it is either built in or simply chosen. I also believe that if no variables are inserted, said formula would return a bisexual, on the simple basis that I believe humans are naturally a "bisexual" species, due to the logic that if we were either naturally homosexual or naturally heterosexual, oddities would probably be much rarer than they are.

That being said, I believe a device that was all "Lolmagic" and changed someone's orientation would have terrible, terrible side effects on their mind, realistically. Given, I don't believe such a thing is even possible, but we're talking hypothetically.

However, assuming it randomly freaking worked ideally somehow... Yeah, sure, why not.

 

[Masqueraine]

You're right, I did say if someone is happy trying to become straight they should do it because they're being who they are! thanks for backing up my point.

Eh, not exactly? Lol.. but to elaborate;

This community can accept people for who they are, no one can understand what another person goes through unless they have been through that themselves. I take it that you think that believing in lies is better for everyone despite the damage it causes? If so, I truly hope you can stop being ignorant on the matter, since the only way for a person to find their own happiness is to be themselves, if they feel like they should be of the opposite sex, no one on this community will stop them.

You said that this community can accept people for who they are since nobody can understand fully what another person is going through unless they've gone through it themselves (which supports renii's post, the one that Toujours quoted). Then you contradict yourself by telling me I think believing in lies and damaging oneself is a good thing, when all I proposed in the post of mine that you quoted is the idea that somebody gay could be unhappy with themselves, not because being gay is a bad thing, but we don't live in the perfect world that Scarf mentions.

If we did this wouldn't be an issue because there wouldn't be people depressed or in the closet about their sexuality, reason being that nobody would discriminate and it would be accepted by everybody. I can understand why some people wouldn't want people to dislike their being gay, as that's somewhat of a backwards step in consideration to gay pride, however not everybody is obligated to be a martyr, metaphorically speaking, and if they'd like to lead a life where they'd be more accepted or happy then they deserve that.

Anyway, after you you called me a liar you then called me ignorant, and suggested that a gay person trying to be straight can't be happy because they aren't being themselves, despite the fact that being true to yourself means doing what you want based on your own decisions, not neglecting to do so because you liked something first. then you go back to talking about transgenders within the same sentence mentioning how it's okay for them to feel like they should be the opposite sex, which directly contradicts your notion that whatever you are first is in direct correlation to your happiness.

If you're confused as to what my opinion is, in short it goes something like this. I think if you're gay and want to be straight, and if there was a means to change that, then you have every right to do so. If in your original post you somehow meant what you said in your second post, then you're agreeing with me, so I don't understand what you're disagreeing with me about.

 

[Åzurε]

Mmkay, I'm not going to respond to the quotes. =/ I try and make all my opinions flow into the text box, but there's so much mental context I can't convey it properly.

I will say that these therapy centers are far from the best thing for somebody who doesn't want to be gay. I think that it partially stems from an improper understanding of what homosexuality is. I don't think it's hardwired into your mind, I've seen nothing scientific to suggest that. I'm more inclined to believe it's often an upbringing thing, something you learn and become comfortable with before you have a reasonable understanding of sexuality in general. At the same time, sexuality in general has incredible effects on a person's mind, and once you set a pattern of behavior in that regard it's extremely hard to alter. If a person wants to go ahead and alter themselves in this way, I think it would be hypocritical for the sort of "everything-permissable" worldview that's so common to frown on their choice.

That's basically my opinion in a nutshell, I suppose.