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Debate: US Health Care Reform

Must US Healthcare reform pass this year?

  • Yes, I don't want to wait any longer.

    Votes: 12 36.4%
  • No, I am fine with the way things are.

    Votes: 17 51.5%
  • Maybe so? (Please Explain)

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • Total voters
    33

Aurafire

provider of cake
  • 5,736
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    16
    Years
    Lol, muzzled the mainstream media? It's going to take more than a few disrupted town hall meetings to do that.

    And what's wrong with a protest? Since when have people lost the right to protest something they disagree with? My god, the media creates such a double standard. Protest something that fits their agenda and it's totally fine, but protest something that goes against their agenda and oh boy are you in trouble! The center-right core of America is speaking out and the media whines that they're not allowing for a fair debate. =/
     
  • 9,468
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    16
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    Lol, muzzled the mainstream media? It's going to take more than a few disrupted town hall meetings to do that.

    And what's wrong with a protest? Since when have people lost the right to protest something they disagree with? My god, the media creates such a double standard. Protest something that fits their agenda and it's totally fine, but protest something that goes against their agenda and oh boy are you in trouble! The center-right core of America is speaking out and the media whines that they're not allowing for a fair debate. =/

    Well, let's just say that the talk of a single-payer system has been muzzled and Michael Jackson got more coverage than our echo protest down the street of the UCLA Medical Center!


    Whoah, whoah, whoah, While this country might be called Center-right, (The demographics are shifting) it still voted for a center-left coalition. It's not as if Obama is pulling this out of a hat. He's been campaigning on this platform for a while now! XD
     

    Yamikarasu

    Wannabe Hasbeen
  • 1,199
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Well, to counter the argument that health care reform would put us in deeper in debt, we're already spending 3 to 4 trillion dollars a year on health care now (more than any other country, yet we don't have the highest life expectancy), and that's more than the cost of the stimulus package earlier this year. If we can streamline the health care system, giving everyone coverage no matter what, that will save us money within just a few years.

    Businesses would also benefit from universal health care because they would no longer have to pay for health care for their employees. This would help turn around the recession.
     
  • 9,468
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    Summareh~

    Oh, too bad I don't have time to post here as much. D:
    But Time had a great summary of the up's and downs of reform: Understanding Health-Care Reform: a User's Guide

    Very enlightening, and non-partisan. :P

    The U.S. spends more on health care than any other country and yet ranks behind 18 other industrialized nations in medically preventable deaths. The U.S. is far down the list in other important categories as well, including the average number of years citizens live a healthy life. Spending more than $1 trillion on health reform may improve these rankings — and yet as Congress and the Obama Administration struggle to agree on the nature of reform, it has become harder to understand how the current U.S. system would actually change. Here is a primer on the parties with a stake in the health-care system and how they, and you, might be affected by proposals on the table.

    A User's Guide



    1. Understanding Health-Care Reform
    2. If You Are Insured Through Employer
    3. If You Are Insured Independently
    4. If You Are Insured Through a Public Program
    5. If You Are The Owner of a Small Business
    6. If You Are Uninsured

    Big Players



    1. The Insurance Companies
    2. The Hospitals
    3. The Doctors

    Insurance Vocab



    1. Health Care Glossary
     

    Autistic Lucario

    Life is too short not to enjoy
  • 333
    Posts
    14
    Years
    Have you seen the anger from the American people on Health Care? They are sensing that something is wrong with this health care plan. Why the rush? Why don't they take a moment to read their own bills?

    I'm a teenager with Asperger's Syndrome. I take medication to control my paranoia. Under this plan, it seems I'm going to be denied health care, period. It's because I have special needs, and the people in Congress want to ration health care. They say that people who have special needs, or are handicapped, elderly, very young, etc, aren't worth the time and money.

    Excuse me, but I don't want the Government taking my medicine away. And what if I develop cancer? Will the answer be "you're not worth our time"?
     
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  • 9,468
    Posts
    16
    Years
    Have you seen the anger from the American people on Health Care? They are sensing that something is wrong with this health care plan. Why the rush? Why don't they take a moment to read their own bills.

    I'm a teenager with Asperger's Syndrome. I take medication to control my paranoia. Under this plan, it seems I'm going to be denied health care, period. It's because I have special needs, and the people in Congress want to ration health care. They say that people who have special needs, or are handicapped, elderly, very young, etc, aren't worth the time and money.

    Excuse me, but I don't want the Government taking my medicine away. And what if I develop cancer? Will the answer be "you're not worth our time"?

    Misplaced anger if you ask me. @_@

    First of all Mental health benefits aren't even part of most employer provided plans under the current system.
    Secondly, all this talk about rationing is a bunch of misinformation, the current plan in Congress is quite modest by the standards of the Industrialized Countries.
    Thirdly, has anybody even bothered to read the acts that any legislative branch of government that every country passes? Because this anger over "read your own legislation" is a very impossible task to do, while it might be great in theory, who can analyze every legalese that comes out of the Legislative branch of government?

    I mean have you even bothered to read the PATRIOT Act that was supposed to protect us from terrorists?
     
  • 940
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen Apr 10, 2010
    Have you seen the anger from the American people on Health Care? They are sensing that something is wrong with this health care plan. Why the rush? Why don't they take a moment to read their own bills?

    I'm a teenager with Asperger's Syndrome. I take medication to control my paranoia. Under this plan, it seems I'm going to be denied health care, period. It's because I have special needs, and the people in Congress want to ration health care. They say that people who have special needs, or are handicapped, elderly, very young, etc, aren't worth the time and money.

    Excuse me, but I don't want the Government taking my medicine away. And what if I develop cancer? Will the answer be "you're not worth our time"?
    wut? Under this plan you won't have to pay a private company for your medication; it will be provided to you by the government with no additional up-front cost. This scare-mongering about "rationing" is total BS. I take two (and at some points, three) different hormonal replacement drugs and I'm on fairly aggressive doses; but there'll never be a point where I'm told "You've had your share, we're taking it away". It doesn't work that way!. Do some research @_@
     

    Timbjerr

    [color=Indigo][i][b]T-o-X-i-C[/b][/i][/color]
  • 7,415
    Posts
    20
    Years
    when it comes to politics, I pride myself in being able to see and understand both sides of an issue even if I don't agree with both sides...

    But I really don't understand why people in this country are so vehemently opposed to the government offering optional cheap healthcare as opposed to having to deal with insurance companies. I suppose there's a question of quality medical care, but as far as I'm concerned, if my doctor has a diploma on his wall from an accredited medical school, it makes no difference if he's a cheap governement doctor or a wealthy insurance-backed doctor.

    I'm sure my general ignorance of the american healthcare system in general is obvious in this post, but one more point I have to mention is that people that associate Socialism with communism are really getting on my nerves. >_>
     

    Anti

    return of the king
  • 10,818
    Posts
    16
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    Lol, muzzled the mainstream media? It's going to take more than a few disrupted town hall meetings to do that.

    And what's wrong with a protest? Since when have people lost the right to protest something they disagree with? My god, the media creates such a double standard. Protest something that fits their agenda and it's totally fine, but protest something that goes against their agenda and oh boy are you in trouble! The center-right core of America is speaking out and the media whines that they're not allowing for a fair debate. =/

    But they aren't allowing a fair debate, at least in these town hall meetings where they just drown out their Congressman/Congresswoman with angry shouts and even personal attacks. If that's your idea of a fair debate, where one side does all the yelling and the other side takes a merciless beating, then I guess I can only disagree with you and leave it at that. I would be perfectly for conservative/Republican Americans showing up to Town Hall meeting and calmly giving an informed opinion for their Congressperson to take in, but that's isn't what is happening. the fact that people have been arrested shows just how "fair" these "debates" are. More like shouting matches.

    ...But come on, the media doesn't have anything to do with this. Actually, Jon Stewart had a very good piece on the conservative media (aka FOX News) was basically making fun of left-wing people protesting something that Bush did in his second term. It goes both ways. The liberal and conservative medias are both guilty in setting a double standard - don't act like it's just the liberals. And yes, I know Jon Stewart is obviously biased since he's obviously liberal, but his points were perfectly fair and as usual exposed the hypocrisy of the right. I'm not saying the left isn't hypocritical too (they are), but don't bring the liberal media into this when the conservative media is just as bad.

    Ugh, I don't have the patience to write a huge response, so I'll just keep it short.

    Contrary to popular belief, most Americans actually like the health insurance they have now and don't want the government in control of healthcare. They also don't like the trillion dollar plus price tag that comes with it, which will send us only deeper into debt. Seriously, we've already spent a trillion dollars on a stimulus package that really didn't stimulate anything, and now we want to spend even MORE money? If Obama thinks he can pay for all this spending without raising taxes on middle-class America, then he is sorely mistaken. (By the way? He already broke his promise of not raising taxes on anyone making less than $250,000 by adding a new $33 billion dollar cigarette tax, and the carbon cap-and-trade bill raises the taxes of all Americans)

    I can't disagree with what you're saying about the spending, and this is where I agree with Republicans. You're also right about Obama breaking his campaign promise. Still, that was on the campaign trail. This is reality. That was a pretty big promise to begin with, but at the same time, I don't really think that an American making $225,000 a year is middle class lol. Yeah, he broke the promise, but that simply became inevitable and his bar was set mighty high for "middle class" Americans.

    But of course, I have to disagree with you about government controlling health care since that isn't even the plan - a public option is. "The government is taking over everything!!!!" approach is basically a GOP scare tactic (which appears to be working). There's also Sarah Palin talking about Obama's death panel and how it will choose the fate of her child (which is her bringing her children into politics again and being a total hypocrite AGAIN, but I won't get into my disgust for Sarah Palin right now).

    If you want to criticize the bill for being too expensive, I can't disagree. But if you're going to call it a government takeover or (and I know you didn't do this one, so don't take this as me putting words in your mouth) go as far as Palin and just make things up, then I can only take your argument as GOP talking points. I know that as a conservative, you're against the expansion of government, so Obama's presidency probably hasn't been very happy for you. The spending partis getting out of control, and there I agree with you. But this isn't a government takeover, and frankly, I don't really think that the tens of millions of people without health insurance really care who gives them some relief.

    So comments like "Well we have universal healthcare, why doesn't America?" and "Omg, how does America survive without universal healthcare!" are essetially short-sighted and ignore the fact that the majority of Americans simply do not want this to happen. The polls don't lie, and they show that Obama is quickly losing support. I'll say it again, Americans want healthcare reform. What they don't want is a pitifully put together and hastily rushed 1,000 page nightmare of government madness being slammed through Congress as fast as possible without their opinions being heard.

    Your statement is ignoring the fact that our health care system is insultingly poor compared to countries that have universal health care, and any majority is slim and still inconclusive - there is a lot of work to be done still and a lot can change. I don't know how in the world such statement are short-sighted at all since these health care systems have worked much better than ours (which, again, is insanely bad). If anything, it's thinking more for the future since any short-term thinking is being held up by the very polls you mentioned and Obama's waning support.

    Also (and I'm aware this is an extreme point but it's the best analogy I can come up with), the majority of people in Italy after World War I supported Mussolini when he came to power ("Mussolini got the trains running on time!"), but that didn't turn out well for them. And of course, the same problem would confront the Russians after Lenin and the Bolsheviks took power, only World War II didn't wipe out the Soviet regime. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes the people can be misled or downright wrong (reelecting Bush, man did that work out!), so throwing polls and a slim majority at those who want the bill passed and acting like it somehow bolsters your argument is pretty unfair. I'm not saying you should ignore the will of the people (quite the opposite), but divided and partisan numbers that lean toward the GOP doesn't mean that your side is somehow more right than Obama's, which is unfortunately what your statement implied. Lack of support =/= a lack of viability in the plan itself.

    If Obama would just slow it the hell down and allow for a somewhat bi-partisan bill with compromise and debate, this whole debacle would be going much more smoothly.

    I am inclined to agree a lot more with this, though August is providing a time for debate, but it hasn't been capitalized on - Obama cannot be blamed for that, however. Also, it's probably wishful thinking to assume that we can get a bipartisan bill smoothly through Congress. There is so much division right now both in Congress and the country as a whole that the prospects of that are looking bleak. I really wish Obama wouldn't just ram it through with the majority (which John McCain made a good point about, essentially saying that this isn't bipartisan at all), but that might be the only way for it to pass at this point.

    Time will tell. I hope they don't since I tend to agree with you that with bill seems rushed and will probably be too costly and ineffective, but I think that a lot of your criticisms (and by extension, those of the Republican party) are a bit unfair. I don't support the bill, but there isn't going to be a government takeover or death panels (again, I know you didn't say anything about those).
     
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    Vallander

    Close your eyes...
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    wow lol just because that is a whole lot to read, im just going to post my general opinon about this whole mess.

    ok firstly, the health care, this is what needs to happen:

    Health Care for everyone: YES! this needs to happen, but people dont understand HOW it needs to happen;
    -Health Care should be provided for everyone who NEEDS it. like if you're living in poverty and having zero health care because you cant afford it, how can someone living comfortably (not rich mind you, just comfortable) whine and complain about how they have to pay "soooo" much for it?
    i think it should be free to those who do not have the means to pay for it, or to those who it would be an extreme burden to pay for it.

    honestly i could say more but im not going to rant about it and then get bashed by someone who disagrees, so ill leave it there (high five for anyone else in this thread who thinks the same or somewhat the same) :)

    now to address the "anger" issue surrounding this:
    it might sound cold but:
    PEOPLE NEED TO GET A LIFE AND QUIT YOUR DAMN COMPLAINING!
    the real reason people are gettin mad at obama now is because they all voted for him because he promised alot of positive change.
    now while i do definitely agree he may have promised a little more than he realized he could realistically do, people have no right whatsoever to get angry that this country isnt in some damn golden age after only like what 4-5 months??? i mean cmon really?
    as if everyone thought this country's economy was going to magically change as soon as obama got into office. it also doesnt help that congress doesnt support him very well (since lets be honest congress is really who runs this country)
    now for why people are getting mad at the health care reform, get an education!!! im not pointing anyone in this thread out mind you, just the general american population. most people getting mad about this really dont have a leg to stand on when they argue all they know is what some random people have told them because people in this country make decisions based on OTHERS opinions.
    they just know Canada has free health care for everyone so they think: "Oh well why wont obama do this? he sucks!"
    well guess what, free health care for everyone is what really sucks here!
    go into the doctor's office with cancer...
    -Doctor: oh yes its all in order we'll get you your treatment with no cost to you :)"
    -patient: yay i might live! (or something lol i dont know just work with me here :P)
    -Doctor: yep you'll get your lung transplant and chemo in...oh about 8-11 months.
    -patient: 0_0........

    hmm now whats wrong with this picture.

    i guess just to sum this up, people need to step back and look at the facts before opening their big mouth in argument, making their OWN decision instead of using ideas put in their head by someone else. know what you're talking about before spouting off random crap, and actually give obama a chance, not just start bashing him when he hasn't even finished unpacking his things in the white house yet. and probably the most important of all:
    things aren't going to be perfect. it sux big time, but this is life, not your ego.
    there's going to be pros and cons to both sides of this argument but people just start ignoring all the pros once they hear of one con that just gets to them.

    thats all im gonna say on this topic (for now at least; i think i want to read even more into this)

    and bravo to everyone on this thread who showed their intelligence by actually KNOWING what the hell they're talking about and looking at all aspects of this. *high five here's a cookie ^_^* and i know i obviously dont sound like a genius with this and ill admit im not really into politics and i dont follow it with a whole lot of enthusiasm to be honest.

    and @ Anti: very good points in your argument ( i dont really like Palin either but whatever she's not really a future issue i dont think)
    and yeah you are absolutely right that people gotta realize its going to be expensive, just like EVERYTHING ELSE IN AMERICA, but i think with time it will get better. to me this is like consolidating your debts (house, car, utilities, etc.) i think thats what they're trying to do and you never know it just may make the ultimate difference here, but people have to be willing to listen and give it all a chance. like you said what do you care WHERE you get relief from as long as your GETTING it in the first place? its an irrational fear that is taking over this country.....again (Red Scare anybody? i know its not the same but it has a couple similar elements at play). basically people are afraid of whats going to happen and they're reacting with anger and in some violence because they dont know what else to do.
     
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    Cherrim

    PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
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    I still see nothing that convinces me that socialized health care is not a good idea. I don't understand at ALL why people think it's a bad idea. Yeah, if you put a system together too hastily, that's bad, but it's moreso the people who are so vehemently against even the idea of free health care that absolutely baffle me.

    In order to get treated for anything in the US, you basically need insurance, right? I don't see how paying for insurance and paying extra out of your taxes for health care is any different--just one will hike up your premiums if they can get away with it once they find out you're sick and actually NEED the insurance, and the other will continue to provide you with health care whether you're sick and dying or perfectly healthy and going in for a check up. And the latter will help OTHER people too. Don't think of it like you're paying for poor people to piggy-back off the system... think of it like you're paying for your OWN RIGHT to access any aspects of the health care system that you need just like everyone else is. Honestly, I'm trying not to, but it's hard not to associate the "I'm not paying for someone else's health care!" argument as "I don't think everyone has the right to be healthy." :(
    they just know Canada has free health care for everyone so they think: "Oh well why wont obama do this? he sucks!"
    well guess what, free health care for everyone is what really sucks here!
    go into the doctor's office with cancer...
    -Doctor: oh yes its all in order we'll get you your treatment with no cost to you :)"
    -patient: yay i might live! (or something lol i dont know just work with me here :P)
    -Doctor: yep you'll get your lung transplant and chemo in...oh about 8-11 months.
    -patient: 0_0........

    hmm now whats wrong with this picture.
    I've never known anyone to wait for things like chemo for that long. iirc when my grandmother had cancer, her chemo started maybe a few weeks after it was ordered. When I had surgery last year, the requisition was sent in at the end of September and I was booked in for the end of October. It was a minor surgery but... still, those aren't super long wait times. I know my grandpa was waiting... quite a while for an eye transplant or surgery or something like that but the only reason he was waiting was because nothing was available. :( Quite literally the day something opened up, he was called up and asked to come in right away. It's not like they just pick an arbitrary number and ask you to wait that long.

    This site outlines the current wait times for several different procedures in Ontario. Depending on the hospital, they can be pretty extensive wait times and some hospitals bump the provincial wait time average up by a substantial amount but the less busy ones don't have much of a wait at all. o_O; Some are as low as 20 days for some diagnostics (not bad at all and you CAN be fast-tracked if your doctor deems it necessary, iirc) and for most of the cancer surgery wait times I checked, the highest wait was 3 months. I'm not sure if other countries have the same problems though--Canada has a severe doctor shortage last I knew AND honestly, we don't have enough hospitals here in the GTA which is the most populous area of Canada. I tossed in my own postal code to check near me so those wait times are probably a bit more than you'd expect country-wide. (The suburban city I'm in doesn't even have its own hospital despite being one of the largest cities in Canada fffff.) The wait times aren't going to be as much of an issue there if they aren't already, I would imagine.

    Honestly, I don't know many Canadians at all (if any??) who dislike our health care system, wait times and all. :( Anyone I've ever spoken to about it has always mentioned that they just can't imagine it any other way.
    Have you seen the anger from the American people on Health Care? They are sensing that something is wrong with this health care plan. Why the rush? Why don't they take a moment to read their own bills?

    I'm a teenager with Asperger's Syndrome. I take medication to control my paranoia. Under this plan, it seems I'm going to be denied health care, period. It's because I have special needs, and the people in Congress want to ration health care. They say that people who have special needs, or are handicapped, elderly, very young, etc, aren't worth the time and money.

    Excuse me, but I don't want the Government taking my medicine away. And what if I develop cancer? Will the answer be "you're not worth our time"?
    Lol what? :( Please read up on socialized health care because you've got it all wrong! With universal health care, EVERY CITIZEN has access to the health care system. So whether you break your leg and have to visit the ER, you visit the doctor for a physical, or you just head to the doctor to get a prescription filled, the visit won't cost you. They can't deny you health care. The health care isn't going to be rationed. Honestly, if you have insurance right now, which you must, then you yourself won't notice all that much of a difference. You'll still go to the doctor like always, you'll still get the same prescriptions as always, and you'll go on with your life.

    The government will recognize your disability just as much as your insurance company will, I think. And if not? You still have the option to continue buying private insurance. Most companies here offer, instead of health insurance, a drug plan of sorts since health care is covered already--so your medication would still be free (or heavily subsidized) and as a bonus, you don't have to worry about crazy premiums and whatnot.

    If you develop cancer or something similar, they won't turn you away. On the contrary, you won't have to worry about your insurance company hiking up your prices (after having deemed you a "risk" client) and you'll have access to the same procedures and treatments as anyone else. I don't know where you got the idea that because you have a mental disorder, they'll drop you from the universal health plan for everyone entirely. Nuh-uh, it doesn't work that way.
     

    TRIFORCE89

    Guide of Darkness
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    The way the media is portraying the wait time issue (which isn't even a big deal) is truly weird. Essentially saying that the government will make you wait.

    You're waiting because, unlike before, everyone can actually go to the hospital. Of course there's going to be an increase in traffic and usage. More people using the hospital...how is that bad?

    You're not going to be denied anything. You can still use private insurance if you want. The government isn't running anything. You're just paying in a different manner.

    I'm watching the town halls and...I'm just dumbfounded. Not just that people are so violently opposed to even the idea and concept of universal healthcare but that so many are just...ridiculously uninformed. I saw someone say something like "I want the government to stay the hell away from my Medicare". Uhhh.... clearly someone doesn't know Medicare is. XD

    Death panels, denying and rationing health care, increased costs, lower-quality health care are just all incredibly ridiculous claims. Mind boggling.
     
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    Obama tackles healthcare critics

    Obama tackles healthcare critics

    Debate: US Health Care Reform

    Healthcare reform in the US is entering a critical phase

    US President Barack Obama has accused some opponents of his healthcare reform proposals of trying to "scare the heck" out of people.
    Anti-reform campaigners had created "bogeymen out there that just aren't real", he said at a town-hall style meeting in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
    Passing a healthcare reform bill is Mr Obama's top domestic priority for 2009.
    But in recent weeks, opponents of reform have been making serious accusations about his proposals.
    The former Republican vice-presidential candidate, Sarah Palin, said last week that the president wanted to set up "death panels" of government officials with the power to determine whether disabled or elderly Americans are "worthy of healthcare".
    In fact, under proposals drawn up by the US House of Representatives, the government would pay for elderly Americans to receive voluntary consultations with doctors to discuss their end-of-life care.
    "The rumour that's been circulating a lot lately is this idea that somehow the House of Representatives voted for death panels that will basically pull the plug on Grandma because we've decided that its too expensive to let her live anymore," said Mr Obama.
    "Somehow, it has gotten spun into this idea of death panels. I am not in favour of that, I want to clear the air here."
    Tsk, all of this talk is a bunch of outright lies no?

    I mean I was laughing when I saw people say "Stay out of my Medicare," and talk about "Death Panels" just shows how much misinformation and crazy stuff is permeating out there. Meh, he could certainly have done better by framing this as more of a moral issue than an economic one. @~@

    Also as for the cost issue, this is essentially an outgrowth of making concessions and starting with the compromised positions. While I do heavily criticize the bill for first keeping the profiteering private insurance companies in place (which drives up costs) secondly, making pharmaceutical concessions which does nothing to actually "bend the curve" of the prices of prescription drugs (Have you seen drug prices in the US lately? @_@) and finally the possibility that the public option will become a "dumping ground" for the uninsurable and therefore drive up the cost of operating it, as it does not have the risk pool of the more healthy constituents to dilute the cost.

    But to be frank, I'm willing to hold my nose and accept this bill as it is the only one which has traction right now, and can be amended through future omnibus bills. Hay, if only Single-Payer "Socialized Health Insurance" aka "Medicare for all" was in the table right now and that the Congressional Budget Office would truthfully show the American People that it is one of the better plans that is not only "Cost-neutral" but actually "Bends the curve." Then maybe this bill would appear heck of a lot more bi-partisan as it is. ~_~
     
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    Cherrim

    PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
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    Wait, I haven't been keeping up with this entirely. What is a "death panel", exactly? Is it what I'm hoping it's not, and a group of government officials who would essentially decide who would and would not have access to health care (and thusly who dies, who lives, etc.)?

    And people really believe this stuff?? Seriously!? :( I think you guys have more issues than just health care to rectify atm...
     
  • 940
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    • Seen Apr 10, 2010
    The problem is that people see that the notion for assisted end of life is being contemplated (and so it ought to be; people in palliative care ought to be allowed to decide how their own life comes to an end) and instantly that becomes "hOMG death panelz!". It's so very easy to incite mass hysteria in our American cousins :(
     

    TRIFORCE89

    Guide of Darkness
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    Wait, I haven't been keeping up with this entirely. What is a "death panel", exactly? Is it what I'm hoping it's not, and a group of government officials who would essentially decide who would and would not have access to health care (and thusly who dies, who lives, etc.)?

    And people really believe this stuff?? Seriously!? :( I think you guys have more issues than just health care to rectify atm...
    Yeah. That's the idea floating around. Kicking out those who would be a strain on the system. I'm not sure what the original (and hopefully not evil?) version of it was before it expanded into this mess in the media and the minds of people.

    But clearly people aren't fond of "We're going to kill your grandma" version. XD
     

    Cherrim

    PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
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    21
    Years
    @Sawah: Yeah but... but it's one thing to propose that someone be able to decide their own fate if they're near the end of their life and another entirely to put a committee together that decides who gets to live and who doesn't omg. If that was the original meaning just hoooow does the media bastardize it so much. And why do people believe it. I don't get iiiit. Don't they teach critical thinking? D8
    Yeah. That's the idea floating around. Kicking out those who would be a strain on the system. I'm not sure what the original (and hopefully not evil?) version of it was before it expanded into this mess in the media and the minds of people.

    But clearly people aren't fond of "We're going to kill your grandma" version. XD
    I just don't understand how anyone could take something like that seriously. Like if I heard someone reporting that I'd just question wtf happened to the integrity of the news station and leave it at that because, well, I though it would be obvious, but no government in a country like the US would ever propose something as ridiculous as that. :|
     

    TRIFORCE89

    Guide of Darkness
  • 8,123
    Posts
    20
    Years
    @Sawah: Yeah but... but it's one thing to propose that someone be able to decide their own fate if they're near the end of their life and another entirely to put a committee together that decides who gets to live and who doesn't omg. If that was the original meaning just hoooow does the media bastardize it so much. And why do people believe it. I don't get iiiit. Don't they teach critical thinking? D8

    I just don't understand how anyone could take something like that seriously. Like if I heard someone reporting that I'd just question wtf happened to the integrity of the news station and leave it at that because, well, I though it would be obvious, but no government in a country like the US would ever propose something as ridiculous as that. :|
    I found this...

    "A provision in the House bill written by Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., would allow Medicare to pay doctors for voluntary counseling sessions that address end-of-life issues. The conversations between doctor and patient would include living wills, making a close relative or a trusted friend your health care proxy, learning about hospice as an option for the terminally ill, and information about pain medications for people suffering chronic discomfort.
    The sessions would be covered every five years, more frequently if someone is gravely ill."

    "It would block funds for counseling that presents suicide or assisted suicide as an option."

    "AARP, the seniors' lobby, is taking out print advertisements this week that label as false the claim that the legislation will empower the government to take over life-and-death decisions from individuals."

    "Some social conservatives say stronger language is needed to protect seniors from being pressured into signing away their rights to medical treatment in a moment of depression or despair."

    https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_end_of_life_q_a

    So....uhh...huh? Death panels?
     
  • 940
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen Apr 10, 2010
    What an interesting evolutionary path the media takes from "Allowing end of life option consultations" to "DEATH PANELS"
     
  • 9,468
    Posts
    16
    Years
    @Sawah: Yeah but... but it's one thing to propose that someone be able to decide their own fate if they're near the end of their life and another entirely to put a committee together that decides who gets to live and who doesn't omg. If that was the original meaning just hoooow does the media bastardize it so much. And why do people believe it. I don't get iiiit. Don't they teach critical thinking? D8

    I just don't understand how anyone could take something like that seriously. Like if I heard someone reporting that I'd just question wtf happened to the integrity of the news station and leave it at that because, well, I though it would be obvious, but no government in a country like the US would ever propose something as ridiculous as that. :|

    Obama wants to kill your Grandma!

    Five right-wing myths about healthcare reform, and the facts

    Aug. 6, 2009 | WASHINGTON -- Turning America socialist apparently wasn't enough for him -- now President Obama is trying to make old people kill themselves, callously deny important medical procedures, funnel tax dollars to abortion clinics and wiggle the government's way into every doctor's office in America.
    At least, that's the sense you might have about the healthcare reform proposals Congress is considering from listening to opponents describe them. Already, conservative activists have erupted against the plan, with protesters hanging Democratic lawmakers in effigy and disrupting town hall meetings.

    As both the House and the Senate clear out of the Capitol for the month, expect the viral buzz -- and the TV battle -- about what's in the bills to grow louder and louder. The White House finally seems to have realized that the administration can't win the policy debate without addressing some of the attacks from the right. Aides recently released a video rebutting some of the claims about what healthcare reform would and wouldn't do. An administration official told Salon Wednesday that the White House will soon launch a Web site modeled on the "Fight the Smears" site Obama's campaign ran last fall, where voters can find -- and debunk -- some of the rumors about the reform proposals, and the White House is already collecting chain e-mails at "[email protected]," an address Obama aides set up to receive them.


    But the administration might already be behind the curve. Over the last few weeks, opponents have managed to get out their spin on the bill through talk radio, blogs, chain e-mails and other channels. And their talking points depend on a notably elastic approach to the truth. Here's a fact check of some of the more alarming claims that the right is making about healthcare reform, claims that are already hardening into myth.

    Myth 1: Democrats want to kill your grandmother. This claim seems too outlandish on its face to get much traction, but Republicans actually made some headway on it recently. Two House GOP leaders put out a statement warning that the healthcare reform bill "may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia." To hear opponents of reform talk about it, the legislation would force seniors to go in for sessions once every five years -- and more frequently if they're sick -- where doctors will encourage them to end their lives. Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-N.C., summarized the scare tactic pretty well on the House floor last week, when she said the bill would "put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government," and therefore, wouldn't be pro-life. The GOP has pushed this line especially hard with some of the conservative groups behind the government's intervention in the Terri Schiavo case a few years ago, hoping to get antiabortion allies on board fighting reform. "Can you imagine the response of the American people when they find this out?" one-time GOP presidential candidate Fred Thompson asked about the alleged euthanasia scheme on his radio show last month. "They're going to counsel you on preparing you to die," Rush Limbaugh pronounced a few weeks ago. Proof of how far this attack has spread came last week, when a caller to an AARP forum asked Obama about it directly. (Probably unwisely, the president tried to make light of the question, saying there weren't enough government employees to go meet with old people to talk about end-of-life care.)

    There is a kernel of truth at the root of this attack: The legislation would order Medicare to pay for consultations between patients and doctors on end-of-life decisions, which it currently doesn't cover. But the consultations wouldn't be mandatory; if your grandmother doesn't want to go talk to her doctor about end-of-life care, she won't have to. Because Medicare doesn't pay for this kind of planning now, only 40 percent of seniors who depend on the government insurance say they have an advance directive that tells healthcare providers what measures they do and don't want used to prolong their life, even though 75 percent say they think it's important. The lack of planning actually costs a lot of money. Medicare spends billions and billions of dollars annually on expensive treatment during the last year of a dying patient's life. Without allowing Medicare to pay for end-of-life consultations, it's hard to know whether patients even want to go to such expensive lengths.

    Well this Salon article pretty much summarizes the outlandish smear and lies campaign coming out. While I do agree with Anti that both sides do need to learn how to sit down and debate maturely, plus that this costs too much, the problem is people seem to be content with shouting matches and putting forward new opinion polls as facts. >.>

    It seems that the middle ground either costs too much or will not cover everyone. @~@
     
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