Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate

[Haza]

though many pokemon get smashed by it in OU and under, can you imagine how badly itll get smashed itself in Uber. In my opinion it belongs to stay in OU, it just sits at the top.

 

[c_dog]

That's largely the point people are making- There are no counters so you have to revenge kill, which must require a dead pokemon to even attempt.

unless you send in the "revenge killer" on a predicted sword dance. risky, but it can work.

obviously if you rpedict wrong and your revenge killer goes down it could really put your team in even more trouble.

 

[.]

unless you send in the "revenge killer" on a predicted sword dance. risky, but it can work.

obviously if you rpedict wrong and your revenge killer goes down it could really put your team in even more trouble.

No, a revenge killer comes in to kill something after another Poke is dead. Like this:

Slowbro is sent in
Garchomp is sent in
Garchomp uses Outrage
Slowbro dies
Weavile comes in
Weavile uses Ice Punch
Garchomp dies

 

[c_dog]

No, a revenge killer comes in to kill something after another Poke is dead. Like this:

Slowbro is sent in
Garchomp is sent in
Garchomp uses Outrage
Slowbro dies
Weavile comes in
Weavile uses Ice Punch
Garchomp dies

notice the quotation marks around "revenge killers"? it was mentioned that the only way to take down garchomp was to revenge kill after a pokemon dies but i was suggesting that if you're lucky/skilled enough and see a sword dance coming:

slowbro is sent in
garchomp is sent in
---------------
slowbro has returned weavile(CB) is sent in
garchomp uses sword dance
----------------
weavile(CB) uses ice punch
garchomp dies

this way you get the kill without sacrificing a single pokemon. this would require the opponent to use sword dance which is possible when it's up against a fresh team and feels it should sword dance up for extra power. obviously requires some luck.

 

[.]

notice the quotation marks around "revenge killers"? it was mentioned that the only way to take down garchomp was to revenge kill after a pokemon dies but i was suggesting that if you're lucky/skilled enough and see a sword dance coming:

slowbro is sent in
garchomp is sent in
---------------
slowbro has returned weavile(CB) is sent in
garchomp uses sword dance
----------------
weavile(CB) uses ice punch
garchomp dies

this way you get the kill without sacrificing a single pokemon. this would require the opponent to use sword dance which is possible. obviously requires some luck.

People aren't that dumb. Not many use Swords Dance in the beginning of the battle, they try to get in some damage. And besides, Garchomp can switch out. Notice why I said Chomp used "Outrage"

 

[c_dog]

People aren't that dumb. Not many use Swords Dance in the beginning of the battle, they try to get in some damage. And besides, Garchomp can switch out. Notice why I said Chomp used "Outrage"

i already said it would require some luck. if garchomp is up against a pokemon that it would take at least 2 hits to KO, it might think "oh, might as well sword dance up and make this(and possibly future opponents) a OHKO", it could do that. and the reason it doesn't switch out of weavile would be because it has yache berry and expects to survive the hit, while getting rid of the "garchomp counter/revenge killer" with a hit of its own. little does it know that it's a CB weavile and kills it even with the yache berry.

it's a possible scenario. garchomp could switch out, but why would it unless it senses a CB.

 

[.]

i already said it would require some luck. if garchomp is up against a pokemon that it would take at least 2 hits to KO, it might think "oh, might as well sword dance up and make this(and possibly future opponents) a OHKO", it could do that. and the reason it doesn't switch out of weavile would be because it has yache berry and expects to survive the hit, while getting rid of the "garchomp counter/revenge killer" with a hit of its own. little does it know that it's a CB weavile and kills it even with the yache berry.

it's a possible scenario. garchomp could switch out, but why would it unless it senses a CB.

...No. Weavile's all carry Ice Shard, which will break the Yache and then kill it. You're making it scenarios that no sane battler would get themselves into. If Garchomp is SDing in the face of Weavile, even with Yache, he's stupid

 

[Aquilae]

Weavile is faster. Enter scenario:

A switched in Garchomp!
B switched in Weavile!

Weavile used Ice Punch / Shard (might not KO due to yache)
Garchomp used SD!

Weavile uses second Ice move!
Garchomp fainted!

 

[c_dog]

...No. Weavile's all carry Ice Shard, which will break the Yache and then kill it. You're making it scenarios that no sane battler would get themselves into. If Garchomp is SDing in the face of Weavile, even with Yache, he's stupid

garchomp is not trying to SD in the face of weavile but some other poke(slowpoke in our example), the problem here is weavile user predicted the SD hence sending weavile in.

and who says weavile's can't carry ice punch? hell if i wanted that garchomp revenge killer i'd pack the stronger ice attack which would be ice punch. if nobody was using ice punch, they should, especially if they want to OHKO yache chomp.

 

[Walrein]

https://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cloyster

This set takes advantage of Skill Link by employing Icicle Spear as your main STAB attack. This makes Cloyster one of the best Garchomp counters you can find. Thanks to Icicle Spear hitting five times, you can break its Yache Berry protection with the first hit, while the remaining four can finish it off. You can also break through Garchomp's Substitute, also killing it in a single turn. Ice Shard can accomplish the same goal, and helps if you encounter a Garchomp running a more defensive EV spread than normal. If it manages to survive the first onslaught from Icicle Spear, Ice Shard will shave off the remaining HP before the dragon has a chance to fight back.

I already suggested Cloyster beeing a great Garchomp counter, and smogon seems to agree with me.
What about Mismagius switching into EQ and WOW it? It outspeeds Garchomp and disables it. Same for Gengar.

 

[devilicious]

I'm still elaborating my post, but...

though many pokemon get smashed by it in OU and under, can you imagine how badly itll get smashed itself in Uber. In my opinion it belongs to stay in OU, it just sits at the top.

That's bullcrap. I'll have you know that a Pokémon's perfomance on ubers is irrelevant, since it's a ban tier. Do you think people use Wobbuffet on ubers? They don't. Do you think Wobby is OU? I hope you don't.

Some of you people need to study some basic information about tiers, Pokémon and the whole metagame before posting, seriously.

 

[Aquilae]

Mismagius gets downed by a +2 Outrage / Dragon Claw even if it burns Garchomp and/or switches into Outrage / Dragon Claw. If it can only switch into Earthquake / Fire Fang, thats not showing its viability as a counter.

For Cloyster LO +2 Outrage OHKOs after SR damage, Yache or non-LO variants can survive the first and second Ice Shard and down Cloyster.

 

[Ársa]

though many pokemon get smashed by it in OU and under, can you imagine how badly itll get smashed itself in Uber. In my opinion it belongs to stay in OU, it just sits at the top.

The discussion is not whether it performs in Ubers or not, but if it is too powerful for OU. There are a few pokemon relegated to Ubers because they are too powerful for OU, yet aren't seen that much in Ubers, because there they are outclassed by their counterparts.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

In regards to the discussion, I must say I really am at a midpoint. I can certainly see where people are coming from, Aquilae especially. The main exponent of Garchomp in recent times is Yache Berry, which now halts many attempts at that all important OHKO revenge kill we've become accustomed to. The problem we see is that the Garchomp user can easily switch out, and come back in again when the time is right. People counter that you can easily revenge kill Garchomp, and that may be true, but if you need to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in, just for the opponent to switch said monster out, it does make life difficult.

On the flipside, Anti does make excellent points. Usage shouldn't determine Uber status, and although I don't think it was meant to be seen as that way, it has certainly become involved. We are always assuming that Garchomp has a Swords Dance under it's belt and is holding a Yache Berry. Problem with this is, we can assume the same for other pokemon also, but we don't. What if we say a Yache Berry Salamence has a Dragon Dance under it's belt, and an opponent is switching into a STAB Dragon Claw? Certainly that is very similar to Garchomp, albeit a lower attack rise and lower move base power, the effect is still very similar. The movepool of Garchomp is certainly one of the many reasons it has become an issue. Access to moves that can break through many common physical walls and the ability to use those moves with effectiveness is certainly hard to counter, but not impossible.

I'm sorry to say, but we do seem to have drifted back to what happened previously. We assume that every Garchomp is running a Choice Band/Life Orb/Yache Berry, using Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Outrage/Fire Blast/Fire Fang/Crunch/Stone Edge/Swords Dance/Substitute, and that Stealth Rock is up and Garchomp has already used Swords Dance with 100% health in check, also that Sandstorm is always up. Let's be literal here people, that is obviously impossible, and even the possible is unlikely in some cases. We also seem to forget that Garchomp needs to get in. You may say that 'but Garchomp can come in after another pokemon has been defeated', but in all honesty, if that is the only way your opponent can bring Garchomp in, you've done a fairly decent job. I have seen a change in movesets to prevent Garchomp from getting a free switch in, no more so than with the change of Thunder Wave to Toxic on the standard Blissey. What I see here is that Garchomp needs to also switch in, we seem to focus on people needing to switch into Garchomp, but not the other way. Garchomp is going to take some sort of damage most likely during the switch, and if not possibly even being disabled via a well placed status etc.

In conclusion...I have no idea. Both sides are fairly equal, the +Ubers side presents very good arguments in regards to the ability to counter each set and the havoc a fully powered Garchomp can reak on teams, while the -Ubers group has been able to at show us that not all Garchomp run every move under the sun, nor do they all run every set. We've also seen some very decent counters to each set seperately.

I believe the problem we have is that Garchomp has many different sets. What counters one set normally cannot counter the other and vice versa. This in turn forces some players to have more than one Garchomp counter in their team, and you could say this is indeed overcentralization, and I would probably agree with you. On the other boat though, there is another dragon by the name of Salamence that also runs opposing sets very effectively. It does have lower stat totals and more weaknesses, which is perhaps why it's been kept as a solid OU, but if we look at the comparisons, the two are similar. Unfortunately, the movepool of Garchomp is definately the superior, and so it is obvious as to why we are discussing the movement of Garchomp compared to that of Salamence, but I thought I just might bring that up.

Ok, so it may sound like a load of crap to most, and it probably is tbh, but I hope i've summed up my feelings about the situation, personally right now I'm against the movement, I guess I just don't like change...

~Tortured_Soul

 

[Aquilae]

If we are taking that same approach with Garchomp, why not take it with its counters? We could have every counter worn down dealing with Gyarados and suchlike and Garchomp going in for the kill...

Usage is related to power. People use the pokemon because it functions well, and in a competitive game like pokemon obviously the best would be used the most. If usage does not determine Uber status, there isn't much reliable evidence to prove that a pokemon should be Uber in the first place. Power is very subjective, I could say that for example, Electivire sweeps as it is unexpected and has great coverage but you could refute my argument saying that Motor Drive is situational which contributes to the majority of its sweeps, and so on.

Saying that we are assuming Garchomp to have that plethora of moves isn't the case, the most common set for arguing only has around five possible moves, Swords Dance, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Fang. I think the +Ubers side is arguing that Garchomp can sweep OU with its most common set, which is obviously a quality that needs to be noted.

Comparing Salamence to Garchomp is like comparing apples to oranges, sure they are both fruits, but the similarities stop there. Salamence has a completely different typing and ability than Garchomp, and a different stat distribution. Salamence is most commonly used as a Special Sweeper (MixMence / SpecsMence), and has Intimidate and Fighting and Bug resists, while being weak to Rock. Garchomp however resists Rock, has more bulky stats (without taking Intimidate into account), and has an immunity to Electric. Salamence does not have the power of Garchomp, after a Dragon Dance which is only 1 attack boost it needs Life Orb to roughly come to the same power as YacheGarchomp, and its best move is 100 BP (Dragon Rush) compared to Garchomp's 120 BP (Outrage).

Thunder Wave instead of Toxic neuters Blissey and basically prevents her from spreading paralysis and thus turns Blissey into mere setup bait for SDLuke and friends.

Garchomp counters Tyranitar, Lucario, Jirachi, Heatran, Infernape, Electivire and Blissey, and is able to get a free Swords Dance in the majority of the time. I would also like to point out, as stated in my original post all of those said counters were ruined by Yache, CB had no counters and the Sub/SD and Choice Scarf sets were the only ones which had clear-cut counters.

 

[airconditioning]

No, a revenge killer comes in to kill something after another Poke is dead. Like this:

Slowbro is sent in
Garchomp is sent in
Garchomp uses Outrage
Slowbro dies
Weavile comes in
Weavile uses Ice Punch
Garchomp dies

OH SCREW YOU. Slowbro isn't even OHKO'd by SD Outrage- and don't forget he has Ice Beam, which does 93.00% - 109.52% without a CM. >:(

 

[Z o M B ii 3]

OH SCREW YOU. Slowbro isn't even OHKO'd by SD Outrage- and don't forget he has Ice Beam, which does 93.00% - 109.52% without a CM. >:(

Thanks for the laugh, it totally woke me up.
Slowbro can take the hit, well atleast enough to cause damage to chomp.
No STAB for Ice Beam though, which makes me cry.
He also has a recovery move, and can boost is SP.ATK.

With a safe switch in and acouple CMs up, you should be able to 2HKO/OHKO depending.​

 

[Walrein]

I thought of an idea-get an Alakazam in a Swords Dance, trick choice specs to it, and...

 

[Z o M B ii 3]

I thought of an idea-get an Alakazam in a Swords Dance, trick choice specs to it, and...

Your aware that Garchomp can learn and use Special Moves, right?​

 

[Walrein]

Your aware that Garchomp can learn and use Special Moves, right?​

I said use it on it's Swords Dance.
And yes, I know what's ChainChomp, but it's quite a stupid set IMO. 80 Over 130?

 

[Azonic]

Um... does it really matter? Wow, Garchomp learns Special Moves! So what? ._.;

What he's saying is that...

---
TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.
---

And it would be locked into a Swords Dance.

Yeah? Well problems will come. Yache Berry might already have been used on an Ice Move, Garchomp might be holding Choice Band, or Garchomp might be holding Choice Scarf, or the user can just play smart and switch out, forcing the Alakazam to Trick the wrong Pokemon, and the TrickSpecs ability is done for. Garchomp switches back in and eats Alakazam. Really, any good player knows to switch out when you see Alakazam, since most Alakazam movesets are the TrickSpecs. Alakazam isn't common anymore. >:<