Ghosts, Poltergiests, and beyond!

..Why the hell do people always need to bring religion into these threads? T_T

...Um, no. i don't. I've never seen one, not matter how hard I've tried to look T_T
 
I don't believe in silly little superstitions. I do believe in ghosts. I know there is no scientific proof, but I believe there is more than meets the eye in this world =O
 
Very true, exactly,. and technically not Thge Apocalypse but the sun getting huge and exploding in billions of years, thats kind of world endish.
 
Mr.May16 said:
Why the heck would you want to know that. It takes all the fun out of everything. And sometiems you ahve to say it, what good is proof?

How many unlogical things ahve been proposed in the past yet have been proven to be true later. Ghost could still be proven one day, yet it would be difficult.
What's the fun in thinking that as soon as you die, it's nothingness. even if it is true why would you want to tell yourself that. It'd keep me paranoid.

Whole civilizations dedicated their lives to the "afterlife." And that helps me realise why I don't like you that much.
Giving proof of your opinion is all fine and dandy, but that little pwnt mainly at the end shows me that you have no respect for anyone else's opinion that disagree's with your own.

If you don't believe in ghost's and spirits, that's fine. There's not much valuable proof saying they exist, but many of us will still keep believing until the dfay when everythin that's ever happened is explained.
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Gaining knowledge and obtaining scientific proof does not take the 'fun out of everything', they help people with understanding the truth. Most people would rather face comprehensible reason as opposed to illogical fallacies. Did Newton take the fun out of dropping things when he worked out the law of gravity? Did Darwin take the guessing out of creationism when he proposed evolution? Did Pasteur take the fun out of diseases when he discovered vaccinations? No. Almost everything we know today boils down to understand, knowledge and evidence. Proof leads to truth, which is the best thing we can have.
In terms of illogical things proposed and later shown as evidence. Frankly, I can think of none whatsoever, if you'd care to give an example on the other hand..

On terms of the 'nothingness' argument behind death, again there is no proof to say there is an afterlife. Nobody remembers from before they were born because they had no functioning CNS, in my opinion (and a scienitific) it would be the same after death. I am repeatedly told that unless I believe in Jesus I will spend the rest of ETERNITY in hell burning in pain, that does sound fun. I have seen religions celebrate the death of a member, in the belief they are in a better place. My growing up in a highly religious background (Christianity) was one of the least 'fun' things I can think of.
Peoples fear of the unexpected often lead them into false hope. You exampled this your self when you said it kept you 'paranoid'.
If anything this makes me 'live for the day' as often as possible. I try to make as much a positive difference in the world, because I know the period of time I have is minute. This if anything is 'fun' rather than hoping I will have a fun experience which is unlikely to ever happen.

Finally, the 'pwnt' was in response to somebody replying to myself, who cockily implied that there was plentiful proof of ghosts and I had none. I have respect for other faiths, but find it irritating when people press ideas that are ill-minded and incorrect.
With regards to "that helps me realise why I don't like you that much", did you realise that from my post? thats quite a strange thing to say considering we don't even know each other, which frankly isn't such a big concern. I could respond similar, but I'd rather not sink to such an immature level.

..Why the hell do people always need to bring religion into these threads? T_T

...Um, no. i don't. I've never seen one, not matter how hard I've tried to look T_T
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In terms of Christianity, ghosts (Not including the holy spirit) are a branch of demons and are highly prominent in the Bible. Luke 6:18, 7:21, 11:24, Acts 8:7, 19:15 are some of the examples in the New Testament, but there are hundreds. If references to ghosts all (with exception of one of them) are sent from the devil. From a biblical point of view ghosts are bad and rejection to belief in ghosts is rejection of the word of god, which is just as bad..
 
Lumine said:
How about do you have any "proper evidence" showing that they do?
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How 'bout you stop whining about it and answer the question?
I asked you first.
All your giving me is the interpreation that you have no proof that they don't
exist.

jwilso72 said:
Well the belief in ghosts is a tradition based on superstition and paranoia. What reliable proof is there? None at all.

Ghosts were thought up millenia ago to explain what happened after death, when there was a lack of scientific understanding in the world. Lets think about this for a minute, we KNOW we are alive because of our brain activity, we can think for ourselves because this gives us conciousness. When we die our brain fails and will no longer function, so how can this conciousness and reaction still survive without the brain? (don't say it's your soul.. because that argument lacks evidence and common sense as well ¬_¬)

Also BILLIONS of people have died throughout the universes existence, a couple of sightings of individuals does not seem like a reasonable proportion of the 'dead community'.

Photographs of 'ghosts' are highly contradictory or easily debunked - ranging from which are very often camera flares, smudges and ripples on glass, reflections, to people dressed up and or those who happened to get into a camera shot with the subjects not knowing. The evidence of ghosts almost completely come down to film evidence, which are very often misenterpreted, or many which are admittedly staged.

Mediums and those whom contact the dead are very often fraudsters and work in by 'hot/cold reading' to draw out the person into belief they are making contact. The same applies for a ouji board - where ghostly communication comes from subconcious movements. For more in depth explanations look into the Seance that Derren Brown recreated.

How about ghosts in clothing? How can non living items pass into the afterlife and exist as whatever a ghost is meant to be (a gas?).

'Feelings' of ghosts can very often be explained by solar activty, lack of oxygen, magnetic distortions and classic paranoia. A controlled experiment involved the public being told a normal house was haunted, after which ghostly reports increased in the building by 500%, where every noise was 'evidence' of the ghosts.


I could go on for quite a while... But lack of faith all comes down to common sense.
Now lets take your examples briefly, I have never had a 'paranormal' experience, becuase I don't believe in them. There are probably a number of logical reasons that could explain your experiences. With time comes memory loss of detail, repitition of the story always leads to subtle changes and exagerrations until eventually comes a point when it can only be explained by something beyond normal.


Now what evidence do you have to PROVE the existence of ghosts?
There is no proof (or disproof) for the FLying Spaghetti Monster but lots of logical reasons why you wouldn't believe in it, ghosts are no different.

PWNT
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Atleast you answered the question.
"Loss of memory" I wrote it down in a flippin' book as soon as I saw this stuff,
AND how can you explain a family of five seeing the same ghost in my old house and interacting with said ghost?
and the paranormal activity that happend to my family and not me?
Hm? I would love to know how you would explain it.
however,
I do agree with the easily edited pictures, solar activity, and fake mediums.
I even had a lesson in tech ed where we took pictures of room or places, and make people or animals into ghosts.
Solar activity + paranoia does equal seeing scary things, all an illusion of the mind.
And fake mediums are just con artists. you taking the picture away from the real mediums, so please, keep the focus on the real ones.

Thank you.
 
jwilso72 said:
Gaining knowledge and obtaining scientific proof does not take the 'fun out of everything', they help people with understanding the truth. Most people would rather face comprehensible reason as opposed to illogical fallacies. Did Newton take the fun out of dropping things when he worked out the law of gravity? Did Darwin take the guessing out of creationism when he proposed evolution? Did Pasteur take the fun out of diseases when he discovered vaccinations? No. Almost everything we know today boils down to understand, knowledge and evidence. Proof leads to truth, which is the best thing we can have.
In terms of illogical things proposed and later shown as evidence. Frankly, I can think of none whatsoever, if you'd care to give an example on the other hand..
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I have something to say to this first. Yes, some people believes in fact over fiction. I'll give a few examples in modern media.

An episode of The Simpsons had Lisa discovering remains of an "angel". The town is in an excited uproar. Lisa is angry that everyone can believe something so trivial. She goes to get test. Inconclusive. The town is pissed and (literally) destroys the museum.

I will highlight that Ned Flanders said "Facts is like a blabbermouth who ruins the movie by telling the ending! Well there are some things we don't wanna know! Truth!"

This is what Mr.May meant. I'm not trying to use Simpsons as a means of logic, but it prove my point.

No offense, but as soon as I saw your name here, jwilso, thats how I felt. "Oh boy, here he is, stating why they don't exist, lets close the thread now", kinda what I thought. Nothing personal, however. Its your love for facts that makes you who you are.

Another one was from Miracle on 34th street. At the end, they let Mr. Cringle go, saying "We believe in God (Not that you need to, mind you) but have no proof of his existance. Who's to say Santa doesn't exist?"

On terms of the 'nothingness' argument behind death, again there is no proof to say there is an afterlife. Nobody remembers from before they were born because they had no functioning CNS, in my opinion (and a scienitific) it would be the same after death. I am repeatedly told that unless I believe in Jesus I will spend the rest of ETERNITY in hell burning in pain, that does sound fun. I have seen religions celebrate the death of a member, in the belief they are in a better place. My growing up in a highly religious background (Christianity) was one of the least 'fun' things I can think of.
Peoples fear of the unexpected often lead them into false hope. You exampled this your self when you said it kept you 'paranoid'
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Now proof what happens when we die. Tell me now. Right now. You can't, can you? You said yourself, we know not of what happens after death. So this is a moot topic. We can come back as rabbits for all I know. No one can proof it, so don't start saying that people are wrong. When fkashes of lighting occured centuries ago, it was a magical happening, and all sorts of theories was thought up. Until they were proven wrong. Don't try to disprove any theories of afterlife, as until you die, they are theories. Maybe their is nothingness. Maybe christianity was right. Maybe Buddism is the way to go. I'll learn when I'm dead.


As for that final pwt comment you explained, you said "I find it irritating when people press ideas that are ill-minded and incorrect".

This is where I draw the line. If they believe that Flying Spaghetti Monsters (which you got from South Park :laugh:) as ur God, you let them, and respect that belief. Don't go along with it; hell, think its stupid. However, they have a rIght to believe something so ludicros, but also be respected. The way I see it, Flying Spaghetti worshipers are morons, but they can easily pick up a gun and kill me, beliefs and all, just as I can do them. Not saying that I approve that action, not one bit. But it means everyone deserves a bit of respect, cause despite our beliefs, we all have a common ground, which deserves a layer of respect.
 
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We mean that it's fun believing in ghosts, if we have all this crap opposing us, wheres the fun in believing when SOMEONE ABOVE is crushing that hope with all of the stuff thats negative towards it
 
Yes....I believe in and am very interested in almost all aspects of the paranormal.
 
I have something to say to this first. Yes, some people believes in fact over fiction. I'll give a few examples in modern media.
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Haha, I hope that was a typo, everyone in the world believes in things which are a fact as opposed to rejecting everything. :P

Anyway in response to the Simpsons reference (nice one XD ), Flanders rejection of truth is an example of why people would reject fact that nulifies or disproves a belief system.
The angel appearance scared the townspeople into believing in God, which supported Flanders strong Christian basis. To be proven it was a hoax could lead to the doubting of God, causing Flanders to hold on to false hopes because of his belief, regardless of contradictory truths (which he ultimately rejects). Also note that Lisa is the intelligent and reasonable Simpsons family member, generally acting as the writers spokesperson to express scientific, philosphical and historical matters.
Never watched Miracle of 34th Street.. Didn't look such a grand film .. ah well.

Now proof what happens when we die. Tell me now. Right now. You can't, can you? You said yourself, we know not of what happens after death. .... Don't try to disprove any theories of afterlife, as until you die, they are theories. Maybe their is nothingness. Maybe christianity was right. Maybe Buddism is the way to go. I'll learn when I'm dead.
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People can't prove what the experience is when dead obviously. But there is a lot of evidence behind the scientific theory, it is a fact that our conciousness comes from our brain and every decision we make, experience we have are all processed there, it is also a fact that a 'soul' has not been located inside the body and the CNS is solely responsible for our concious actions, it is also a fact that when dead brain cells and are likewise unable to make the usual processing. After considering these, a highly logical conclusion to draw would be that we would have no awareness when we are dead. Yep, there is not 100% proof, but in comparison to other theories this seems the most sensible.

I come from a strong Christian Evangelical family and have had a reasonably strict religious upbringing, however my Grandparents and few uncles and aunts are Buddhist, my best friend is also a Buddhist, others are Roman Catholic, Agnostics and Atheists and my flatmates include a Jain and Hindu. I do respect all of their beliefs and faiths although all of us find each others reasoning pretty flawed in some areas.
Taking the Bible as an example, there are so many contradictory and disproving facts that provide enough evidence that it was written by mankind, that I would be willing to bet anything that if there was an afterlife it would not be the Christian one. Again there is no proof that Heaven/Hell do exist, but when considering other aspects of where these ideas come from it makes such, quite unlikely.




No offense, but as soon as I saw your name here, jwilso, thats how I felt. "Oh boy, here he is, stating why they don't exist, lets close the thread now", kinda what I thought. Nothing personal, however. Its your love for facts that makes you who you are.
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Yatta! :D
Since I don't post often the fact I got recognised shows that I'm quite memorable. You kind of made my day to some extent. So thanks for that. ^^
In the long run, people can only benefit from acquiring truth, which is why I'd rather adhere to a combination of facts and logic.
 
Well, I'm glad you weren't mean about it. Or bitter. So basically, we can agree to disagree. Right?
 
sims796 said:
Well, I'm glad you weren't mean about it. Or bitter. So basically, we can agree to disagree. Right?
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No problem, you presented some pretty reasonable points. Almost everyone has disagreements over what can and can't be proved, personally though I just find it strange why people would chose to reject masses amounts of facts or the existence of contradictory evidence.
 
jwilso72 said:
No problem, you presented some pretty reasonable points. Almost everyone has disagreements over what can and can't be proved, personally though I just find it strange why people would chose to reject masses amounts of facts or the existence of contradictory evidence.
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'cause no one likes factz because they work for organization 13

well, maybe a reason is that people find contradictory evidence more fanciating and would rather study that than bother to look at a big pile 'o facts being put in front of them.
almost like kids who eat there steak instead of thier vegies.
either way, each way you choose, fact or contradictory, there will always be things against it and for it.
simple as that.
 
Achamo said:
well, maybe a reason is that people find contradictory evidence more fanciating and would rather study that than bother to look at a big pile 'o facts being put in front of them.
almost like kids who eat there steak instead of thier vegies.
either way, each way you choose, fact or contradictory, there will always be things against it and for it.
simple as that.
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I'm not at all sure what your getting at. There's a difference to finding something interesting as opposed to believing in it because it is interesting. I am fascinated by paranormal, creationism, theism, psychic abilities and have done a lot of research in my free time to get a good understanding about them, but it doesn't mean that I believe in any of them because facts against these can easily disprove or weigh against them.

Steaks and vegetables??? :S

A fact is "something that actually exists; reality; truth:" there can be nothing can oppose against it and prove as a logical response. So there will be things against facts, which are basically incorrect.
Like you said, simple as that.
 
I suppsoe its like proving if the glass is actually half full or half empty, it will always be a divided argument, I sau that Im thristy and end the experiment by drinking the water.
 
This should get thread of the week/month.

Sorry jwilso, I saw your comments to be more, "I'm better than youish" It's hard to make out emotion in words sometimes. I had the wrong drift......

I still think ghosts do exist, but part of it could be part of that unexplainable human mind power we're all supposed to have. Kinda like a ghost live's inside of you :shot:
 
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