[Discussion] Gym (and other) puzzles?

[snideasides]

I think this is the best place for this discussion; mods, feel free to move it if it isn't?

Whether it be official, fan-created, or in some cases a hack, one of the key (and under-appreciated) features that helps each and every Pokemon game feel fresh is the presence of different gyms, usually with a different puzzle to stop you from simply walking straight up to the gym leader. In addition, there are also similar puzzles throughout the games at various points, most commonly in the later "beat Team Rocket etc" phases and in Victory Road. So my question is very simple: What kind of puzzles do you like to see? What works and what doesn't? Is it important for an unofficial game or hack to create new puzzles? What kind of puzzles do you think are overused and underused?

 

[Worldslayer608]

I am a huge advocate of puzzle maps, maps that utilize the jumping ledges in a way that the player needs to properly navigate them to get to an item that may be lying there, or get to an alternate exit of a map. Or ice block puzzle maps, etc.

They force the player to interact with the environment and I think that is pretty important, because the player then gets to experience the world rather than focus on a plot, the same goes with gyms.

I feel they are criminally underused in both official and fan games.

 

[Maruno]

I really like Gym puzzles. There's many different kinds and elements in them, and they make you think and appreciate the surroundings rather than just blaze through them. If Goldenrod Gym had had a puzzle in it rather than just some trainers, I might have noticed that it looks like a Clefairy.

I've had a look through the puzzles in the official games and made a poorly-organised list.

The most common puzzle is the maze. This involves finding your way to the end. Types of mazes include:

• The standard "get through this" maze.
• Make trainers move (or not move) in order to open up a path through.
• Multi-floor mazes, specifically where you have to go back and forth between the floors (otherwise you just have several standard mazes in a row). This includes changing the water level in a flooded map.
• Dark mazes, where you can't see far. Illumation may increase after each defeated trainer. Torch optional.
• Invisible mazes, where you can't see the walls (or are just barely able to see them).
• Warp tile mazes. The trick is to figure out how the warps are connected.
• Choice of paths, where each choice leads to a different trainer or obstacle. Bonus points for letting the player go through all paths anyway. Typically not a "maze" as such since all possible paths will be straightforward.

There are ways to restrict how the player moves, or at least make them think about where they're going. These are quite similar to types of mazes, but I'll list them separately since they can be just part of the puzzle as a whole:

• The Indiana Jones' Path of God maze - there's an invisible designated route, and if you stray off it, you go back to the beginning.
• Ice-sliding.
• Arrow tiles which force the player to move in that direction when stepped on. You could change the direction an arrow points in by flipping a switch.
• Limiting the number of steps in an area. The chief example is Sootopolis Gym, which has floors of ice which crack when you step on them, and you need to crack them all (but not fall through) to open the door to the next area.
• Boulder-shoving. This is different to having Cut trees or Rock Smash rocks, because boulders can only be moved and not erased. Either shove them out of your way, shove them onto switches, or push them down holes to open paths in the floor below.

Other obstacles and features:

• Cut trees and Rock Smash rocks. Mostly pointless, really, as the player will usually have gotten the appropriate HM by the time they get here. However, they may not have it, and this'll encourage them to look for it.
• Moving platforms - step on them and be taken elsewhere. It saves you a bit of manual walking, I suppose. Switches may change where the platform goes, as might the location/direction in which you step on it.
• Rotating doors, as seen in Fortree Gym. Walk into them to spin them around, but make sure you don't block yourself in. One of my favourite puzzles.
• Doors, with switches to open them. I say "doors" in the loosest possible sense - they can be sliding walls, electric fences, punching bags, anything that blocks your way that you need to open remotely. I also say "switches" in a loose sense too, since it could actually be done by defeating trainers (who may be hidden).
• Combination locks - multiple switches control the same door, but only if the correct switches are flipped and/or they're flipped in the correct order. The switches may be hidden and may be randomly placed, a la Vermillion Gym's bins.
• Quiz machines. Answer the question correctly, open the door. Answer it incorrectly, have a battle. Most people will probably answer incorrectly for the sake of getting more money and experience.

The majority of these are possible in Essentials, many fairly easily with some requiring a bit of work but are still doable. Rotating doors would take a very clever person, as might any moving platform things.

I haven't played all the games, but I don't think I've ever seen any Gym use ledges as an obstacle (i.e. not just to block off the quick-return path).

There are of course puzzles in other parts of the games which I've not mentioned. Water currents, ledges, and so on.

 

[BlackWaltz3]

I think Gym puzzles are the best way for a person to show off their creativity. There are lots of ways you can create a crafty puzzle using events, and lots more if you get into scripting. Since people tend to focus on story or worlds or Pokémon a lot, this tends to be very basic. This might be desirable for a first Gym, perhaps, but players will always - ALWAYS - appreciate the thought that goes into a clever puzzle.

One of the things I've spent admittedly far too much time doing is thinking up various puzzles for all of the types and evaluating their feasability in Essentials both in the scope of the engine and the scope of what I myself am capable of creating. As a result, I have a plethora of Gym designs sketched out or otherwise documented for use at a later time. I'm yet to actually build any, but that will come with time. :P

I will note that an actual puzzle per se should not be the focus of your design. The focus should be more on creating an interesting path between points A and B. For instance, Elesa's Gym in Black and White was undeniably extremely linear, but the fact that the path was augmented by the rollercoaster aesthetic made it an interesting journey nonetheless.

That said, puzzles in the literal sense are always fun as well; as with Maruno, Fortree Gym is among my favourites simply because of its clever puzzle design. Speaking of which, don't feel like your Gym designs should directly be influenced by the type theme. Fortree Gym doesn't exactly convey a Flying type mentality, but it is still a great Gym. Virbank Gym doesn't directly convey Poison type (nor, really, a puzzle) but the atmosphere is relevant to Roxie's own aesthetic and the aesthetic of Virbank City.

I forget where I was going with this, so I'd better summarise here. Gyms are the best chance you have to show off your creativity. Still, don't feel railroaded into making complex/flashy puzzles, or even puzzles at all, as long as the player can still enjoy the Gym experience. In addition, don't feel like you have to make the Gym look exactly like a stereotype of the type, but rather allude to the aesthetic of the location, the leader, and the type.

Also, maybe we could have a Gym design discussion thing, for people to post ideas or ask for ideas and share ways of building them, etc.... I dunno, could be worth considering.

 

[snideasides]

I haven't played all the games, but I don't think I've ever seen any Gym use ledges as an obstacle (i.e. not just to block off the quick-return path).

They're a key part of the puzzle in Lavaridge Town in R/S/E.

 

[snideasides]

One of the things I've spent admittedly far too much time doing is thinking up various puzzles for all of the types and evaluating their feasability in Essentials both in the scope of the engine and the scope of what I myself am capable of creating. As a result, I have a plethora of Gym designs sketched out or otherwise documented for use at a later time. I'm yet to actually build any, but that will come with time.

Obviously as the games get more advanced so too do the range of possible puzzles, but are there any types of puzzles that would have been easier to do in an older generation than they would be in a game based on X/Y? (I guess the main example I'm thinking of would be the introduction of diagonal movement making ice-sliding puzzles all but obsolete, but I haven't been able to play the games yet so am not sure if they found a way to work around it.)

 

[Vociferocity]

Obviously as the games get more advanced so too do the range of possible puzzles, but are there any types of puzzles that would have been easier to do in an older generation than they would be in a game based on X/Y? (I guess the main example I'm thinking of would be the introduction of diagonal movement making ice-sliding puzzles all but obsolete, but I haven't been able to play the games yet so am not sure if they found a way to work around it.)

SPOILERS: there are ice puzzles in x/y! diagonal movement plays a pretty core part of them, too

 

[snideasides]

Oooh, nice. I knew there was another ice gym leader and that the puzzle wasn't another standard variation of the usual sliding maze, but didn't know there were other sliding puzzles elsewhere in the gym.