Innovations in gaming: Fire emblem V.S Pokemon.

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    Well Fire emblem fates has been out for a while now and after having played many of the old fire emblem games as well as the more recent ones, I felt it appropriate to make a thread discussing whether changes to the games throughout the years is an improvement, or an impediment. As well as compare and contrast another series almost as old, with just as big (if not bigger) a fanbase with many incarnation of it's initial game.

    The first thing I want to get out of the way is that I don't want to argue about which franchise is better. Although they are both RPG's, they are different genre's or RPG's, so it would be like judging apples and oranges. I wish to discuss the various changes in pokemon, F.E, or both, which changes made a better game in the franchise (i.e Was fog of war an improvement or an impediment in F.E, or whether or not the freindship stat was an improvement or not?). As I'm interested in learning about game design, I am also eager to hear your thoughts and opinions on this thread.
     
    Well, it's not so much innovation as it is change...which might seem like a question of semantics, as the two terms are often user interchangably - you even did as much in your opening post - but I think it's important to clarify in these instances the difference between the two...or, at least it is for me if I'm going to type out a tl;dr response.

    Innovation, to me at least, has always been something that begins from nothing; it's an entirely new and unique idea. Like when a new IP surfaces, or you get an entirely new genre, if you want to take it one step further. In series - hell, in the game industry at large if you want to be cynical about it, which I won't for the time being because I want to stick to my point for a change - innovation is non-existent for the most part. You have a base, and aspects of it are altered or refined as the years go by. It's change...and evolution I suppose, but I really don't like using that word when evolution is supposed to be something positive and a lot of the time evolution in gaming is garbage, so. Change, because it's a non-loaded term with no positive or negative connotations other than what the individual attaches to it. Innovation is about new ideas, change is about refining existing ideas. Unless the core gameplay is different, there is no innovation, only change.

    So, with all that premable said: I think that changes, whether they're positively or negatively received, are always a good thing for video games, because it is only through these small changes a better experience as a whole can come about; only be refining the idea can you improve it and, whilst you might seriously balls it up along the way (hi, Final Fantasy XIII, Skyward Sword, Tales of Zestiria...numerous others) you hopefully won't make the same mistake twice...or you'll improve upon the idea you had and make it workable (FFXIII-2, for all its faults, WAS an improvement over FFXIII in the gameplay department) and provide a better experience. Only by trying can you know if something is a good idea or not. Any good developer worth anything at all takes their fan feedback of changes into account, and either retains them in the next instalment in the franchise with additions and enhancements, or removes them entirely.

    What makes a "better game" in any franchise is down to personal opinion, though. Ask someone what their favourite title is in any long-standing fandom and why and you're just asking for a flame war to kick off, because different people like different things. All you can really do is go by the majority and, if you're considerate, present the option to turn these features on or off in accordance with your personal preference and playstyle. The best small changes are applied, then refined as the series develops so that they're not quite as intrusive as they were previously, or are better incorporated into the game.

    I didn't like the game, but I will applaud Awakening's choice to provide multiple difficulty modes, so people could customise it to whatever degree they chose...they were all still pathetically easy options no matter what you picked if you'd ever played an SRPG before, but it was a nice gesture, and one that should be replicated in titles like Pokemon, which took Easy Mode and Challenge Mode out after B2W2 and have yet to reincorporate them, which is a damn shame in my opinion. That said, I think in a way they HAVE considered that, just in a different fashion: play the sixth generation titles with the EXP share off, then play them with it on. You'll spend longer grinding in the former playthrough if you want to have as easy a time winning as you did in the former, and artificial difficulty is all Pokemon and Fire Emblem have ever had: when every challenge in a game can be overcome by grinding, that isn't true difficulty.

    Continuing on with Pokemon - because that's the only slightly positive comment I have to make of Fire Emblem; I strongly dislike the series - I think that the changes they've made to the core gameplay have been mostly successful: things are a lot smoother, a lot more convenient, and not quite as maddening as they used to be. When the gameplay is fundamentally the same across multiple games, the little things add up, and Pokemon is a lot more convenient and streamlined now than it used to be. These thing have been so small and introduced with no fanfare at all, yet I think they're the changes that matter most, because...well, can you imagine how painful playing the game would be without them?

    Back in the day, you couldn't move Pokemon in your PC, your inventory was a mess, you couldn't even see how much EXP you needed for the next level without checking in the menu. The games have had some serious balance issues more recently - the random encounter and EXP growth rate in Black and White were diabolical, and in X/Y and ORAS they're cranked up to eleven in the opposite direction to make levelling ridiculously fast - but all those little, core gameplay changes that have come about over the years, have done nothing but improve the experience, at least in my opinion. The bigger, more noticeable stuff like seasons, day and night, the physical/special split and so on, are a little more questionable and depend really on where you entered the franchise and what you want out of the games, but the changes that have been made for convenience...well, they're small, but the wrath would be considerable if they had been removed.

    I feel like I should have some grand conclusion for this incoherent babble, so I guess I'd just say I think the best way to go about change is to introduce it, promote it, see what the feedback is, then work on improving it...and NEVER force it. Let us turn it off if we choose; not everyone wants to have it thrown in their faces and forced upon them; some people don't like change at all, and that's OK...even if they could be a bit more gracious about it. But the little things that improve core gameplay and make it more accessible for newer and older players alike, the stuff nobody draws attention to...keep working on it. Games in a series should be judged based on their individual merit, but a series of games should be considered a work-in-progress, and NOT a perfected formula that gets rehashed every year or so with different weapon/character skins, different maps, and some shiny new graphics and background music.
     
    The problem with innovation within the Pokemon series is that it only lasts for a single release, or a generation at most. Walking with your Pokemon, Dream World Pokemon, Easy/Challenge Mode, PokeWalker, character customization etc. Outside of these few things, the series has really had no innovation at all; you collect badges while fighting an evil team, and eventually become the champion - game over. And for the record, I don't consider something that isn't an entirely new concept to a series innovative, such as adding the Fairy-type. Most of GameFreaks innovations are positive, but they never last.

    Fire Emblem is at least somewhat innovative. Fates is a great example of Intelligent System's innovation. Each game is entirely different but still within the same setting, unlike Pokemon versions which mostly change encounter tables at best. And the changes go beyond the story. Other than that, Fire Emblem hasn't been much more innovative than Pokemon. Though, being a strategy game more than an RPG, I can at least give Intelligent Systems a lot more credit for changing a lot of mechanics, like the Weapon Triangle, often to keep things fresh. Almost every change Intelligent System's bring to FE are positive, but sometimes they do them wrong in later releases: like Support and map objective variety in FE10 for example (both were god awful).

    I think Fire Emblem wins out, because introducing Casual mode in Awakening was a huge risk for losing the series identity in being one where every decision mattered, but turned out to be quite a successful move. It was probably the most 'innovative' thing between the 2 series, mechanic wise.
     
    In the case of both series, it's less innovation and more akin to changes.

    For Pokemon. We've haven't seen monumental changes since Gen 3. Which included the revamped PC system and introduction to the EV system, which was reworking to the Stat EXP present in the first two Gens. Gen 4 added the much needed Physical/Special split. But, everything past Gen 5 have been merely quality of life changes to streamline the experience. Yeah, there have been little features like 'walking with Pokemon', 'character customization', or 'soaring'. However, those aren't huge shifts to the foundation of the game. The closest that can be considered is the addition of the Fairy typing and Easy/Challenge mode.

    For Fire Emblem, Fates is actually the latest entry to make some substantial changes since FE5 (Thracia 776), essentially; every entry onward have been consistent in keeping the same mechanics in place, with a couple of exceptions a la FE9/FE10, reintroducing universal skills since FE4/FE5. Eliminating weapon durability, which is a fairly polarizing changes, because character loadouts need to be varied to account for multiple situations and not to get screwed over by the drawbacks in using one weapon. No longer can we just stick a Paladin on a chokepoint with a Javalin, and call it a day. Pair-Up being split up into Attack Stance and Guard Stance, adds more emphasis on the placement of units to maximize the efficiency of them. Speaking more on the topic of Pair-Up, that's a mechanic with inherent pros and cons, as it was an adaptation of the Rescue mechanic. Pros, with certain pairings, units can be pushed to a viability and contribute. Cons, the inability to Pair-Up with an NPC, this isn't a large problem to most people, but it becomes apparent in maps with awful A.I from the Ally units, as it limits the number of strategies that can be used.

    As an side, the Fire Emblem game with the most innovation in the series, is Gaiden, lmao. Out of all the things that came from Gaiden, only the world map and ability to grind, was implemented to later entries.

    artificial difficulty is all Pokemon and Fire Emblem have ever had: when every challenge in a game can be overcome by grinding, that isn't true difficulty.
    Just curious here. What Fire Emblems have you specifically played? I full-heartedly agree with the point of Pokemon, I'm just intrigued how you came to that conclusion for Fire Emblem.
     
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    First, yes, a lot closer to change than innovation.

    Second, and I'm gonna keep this brief, Fire Emblem and Pokemon are fundamentally different series. In that Fire Emblem, even with multiplayer, is in no way competitive and the series is practically known for the changes from title to title specifically. It's pretty rare that you get two Fire Emblem games that play the exact same way and the basic elements that differ between make for a series that can keep a fan interested from title to title. Consider it a patchwork where things are constantly (intentionally) added and removed to come to a different conclusion time and again.

    Pokemon, on the other hand, is an ogre. You see, ogres have layers, and the layers are constantly added, rarely removed. At its core, you have the original product, because the progression is linear and easily traceable. Pokemon is competitive, and for the most part consistent, which is important for a series like it because it has a rather healthy competitive scene and turning away past fans wouldn't be in their best interest, hence why they play safe and simply add layers. And that's not a bad thing.

    Does that mean that I think that there's no room for change? Absolutely not. I think that it's absurd that we still have the anti-fun mechanic known as HMs in the series, Pokemon are still just names with movesets devoid of personality or individuality (save Pikachu, because mascot), and they still haven't really found a way to make traversing the world fun or interesting (kudos to Gen 6 for trying, though). Hell, I think in a different world Pokemon plays similarly but its much better than it is in ours, but that's really what I'm getting at. Pokemon can continue to be about layers, however minor, and still introduce concepts and mechanics that won't seem to be a betrayal of what people consider a legitimate Pokemon experience. 'Course, when a series nets you this much money, spreading out any ideas over several generations is a lot easier than applying several to each one.
     
    In the case of both series, it's less innovation and more akin to changes.

    For Pokemon. We've haven't seen monumental changes since Gen 3. Which included the revamped PC system and introduction to the EV system, which was reworking to the Stat EXP present in the first two Gens. Gen 4 added the much needed Physical/Special split. But, everything past Gen 5 have been merely quality of life changes to streamline the experience. Yeah, there have been little features like 'walking with Pokemon', 'character customization', or 'soaring'. However, those aren't huge shifts to the foundation of the game. The closest that can be considered is the addition of the Fairy typing and Easy/Challenge mode.

    For Fire Emblem, Fates is actually the latest entry to make some substantial changes since FE5 (Thracia 776), essentially; every entry onward have been consistent in keeping the same mechanics in place, with a couple of exceptions a la FE9/FE10, reintroducing universal skills since FE4/FE5. Eliminating weapon durability, which is a fairly polarizing changes, because character loadouts need to be varied to account for multiple situations and not to get screwed over by the drawbacks in using one weapon. No longer can we just stick a Paladin on a chokepoint with a Javalin, and call it a day. Pair-Up being split up into Attack Stance and Guard Stance, adds more emphasis on the placement of units to maximize the efficiency of them. Speaking more on the topic of Pair-Up, that's a mechanic with inherent pros and cons, as it was an adaptation of the Rescue mechanic. Pros, with certain pairings, units can be pushed to a viability and contribute. Cons, the inability to Pair-Up with an NPC, this isn't a large problem to most people, but it becomes apparent in maps with awful A.I from the Ally units, as it limits the number of strategies that can be used.

    As an side, the Fire Emblem game with the most innovation in the series, is Gaiden, lmao. Out of all the things that came from Gaiden, only the world map and ability to grind, was implemented to later entries.

    Just curious here. What Fire Emblems have you specifically played? I full-heartedly agree with the point of Pokemon, I'm just intrigued how you came to that conclusion for Fire Emblem.

    First of all, thank you for coming to this thread and posting. Secondly, I wasn't really that into fire emblem awakening until after I completed my second playthrough of Fire emblem awakening with permadeath on. Shortly after I got curious about how the series started, did some research and ended up playing the GBA games on emulators and radiant dawn. My conclusion on fire emblem was drawn when I looked at changes made from the SNES games to the newest entry fates. I realized that this was a passion project for the team. They made changes and added features to improve their game. Not just so they can say it's different. Although there were definitely a few back to back releases that were very similar.
     
    The problem here stems from the fact that Pokemon doesn't really need to innovate and change, at least not as far as Nintendo and GF are concerned.

    Guaranteed best seller not matter how cookie-cutter it is. From a business standpoint, why fix what isn't broken?
     
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