kingdra or dragonnite

[DraconicDino]

@Draconicdino, he asked where to catch Bagon not Dratini maybe for future uses..

I know that he asked where to catch Bagon, but since he was trying to decide between Dragonite and Kingdra, I get the feeling that he slipped up and said Bagon instead of Dratini.

@Corruptodile: LOL. XD

 

[blaQk]

So let me get this straight. You had trouble with a dragon-type gym, so your solution is to get a pokemon with weakness to dragon? Dragon types are weak against their own type.

You should consider an ice pokemon. You'll be in major trouble with Lance if that kingdra gets knocked out.

He said nothing about wanting a Dragon-type because he had trouble with them.

Why would he consider an Ice-type if he wants a Dragon-type?

lolwut, Dragonite or Kingdra to kill dragons? Sure, just make sure you take an outrage to the face. Starmie, or even Lapras makes for better Dragon counters, and help immensely against Lance, (Starmie owns Gyarados with Thunderbolt, Aerodactyl and Charizard with Surf and don't get me started on some Ice Beam/Blizzard on Dragonite).

regardless, if you really want a Dragon type, Dragonite would be better for this team, with it's better bulk and wider movepool.

Again, why would he need an Ice-type if he wants a Dragon-type?

Starmie and Lapras are horrid checks. Lapras more-so than Starmie. Flygon is actually one of the best Dragon-type counters in the game. Flygon would also do a much better job at sweeping Lance since almost all of Lance's team is SPD heavy.

. . . Sure, Ice-types work better . . .

No.

I think my username speaks for itself! get yourself a dragonite, and soon you'll forget about any other pokemon in your team, including Gengar! This I guarantee!

No.

If they want a Dragon let them get a Dragon... Like BlaQk said
Bulk Dragonite, or speed Kingdra, for Lance you'll want Speed Kingdra can set up against Gyarados, with DD then just Sweep with Outrage...also Outrage is learnt at the battle Frontier which you can't access yet so go with Dragon pulse

Ew, god no.

Why would you run Dragon Dance on a special set?

Why would you teach it Dragon Pulse? Tutor Draco Meteor onto it in Blackthorn.

Dragonite would be better in your theorymon scenario because after one Dragon Dance, it'll be faster and harder hitting than Kingdra.

EDIT : You might wanna go with a different approach to the Moveset

Icebeam/Blizzard
Rain dance
Dragon Pulse
Waterfall

DD was taken out because of the lack of Physical Dragon moves

No.

Dragon Dance was on there because that was a physical Kingdra, not a bad special one. Plus that set is bad even for a special one.

If it's an ingame team, you obviously need Fly, so Dragonite is the best choice.

Edit : And I'm not very found on HM-slaves. =/

If it's an in-game team, he obviously doesn't need to be bad an teach Dragonite fly when he can easily use something else that he doesn't battle with.

Dragonite is a beast sweep with extreme speed. Dragonite all the way.

Extreme Speed is not for sweeping.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Both are great, imo, so I really can't say. But I would actually go with Kingdra for some reasons. I prefer both Flygon and Salamence anyways, but it's your team, so it's your choice.

 

[Corruptodile]

Again, why would he need an Ice-type if he wants a Dragon-type?

Starmie and Lapras are horrid checks. Lapras more-so than Starmie. Flygon is actually one of the best Dragon-type counters in the game. Flygon would also do a much better job at sweeping Lance since almost all of Lance's team is SPD heavy.

Read the last part of my comment, I suggested Dragonite over Kingdra.

Flygon won't be sweeping Lance any time soon, since Gyarados is going to Intimidate it, reducing it's effectiveness from the start. Starmie won't have that problem. Flygons most powerful attack against Lance's Dragonites is Draco Meteor, and even then Flygon has to switch out, or Dragon Claw, which is rather pitiful in terms of damage.. Starmie can spam Ice Beams, or Blizzard, as well as Surf/Hydro Pump and Thunder/Thunderbolt for risk takers, and recover off the damage, or use Gravity to make sure the powerful yet inaccurate moves hit everytime. A final note is that Modest Starmie is faster than Jolly Flygon, meaning that Starmie is more powerful and faster, and hits Lance harder. Lapras is pretty fail though, I don't know why I suggested her. xD

EDIT: So this post has something to do with the OP, it's your team however, so choose which ever Dragon you want, even if I say Dragonite :)

 

[jjnerdful]

"You'll be in major trouble with Lance if that kingdra gets knocked out" should tell you that the OP should consider an ice pokemon (which I should've clarified as something that can use ice attacks effectively) in addition to kingdra.

None of OP's other pokemon have an overwhelming advantage against dragons. Given that all of Lance's pokemon except 1 carry a dragon move, kingdra could be in major trouble, especially since it's not exactly going to outrace everything and knock them all out in one hit. A properly trained starmie with surf/icebeam/thunderbolt could easily sweep through Lance.

Re-read the original post. "i have a team that needs a dragon because it took me forevcer to beat the eighth badge in HG i had to use my gengar and at least 3 revives."

 

[Perriechu]

Ew, god no.

Why would you run Dragon Dance on a special set?

Why would you teach it Dragon Pulse? Tutor Draco Meteor onto it in Blackthorn.

Dragonite would be better in your theorymon scenario because after one Dragon Dance, it'll be faster and harder hitting than Kingdra.


Dragon Dance was on there because that was a physical Kingdra, not a bad special one. Plus that set is bad even for a special one.

That's a bad set for a competitive Kingdra Ingame it's fine. Dragon pulse so you won't have to deal with the 2 Stage Sp.Atk loss.

Dragon Dance, is rubbish on Kingdra ingame, because of the lack of Physical moves
Other than Waterfall and Outrage, he also has no access to Outrage unless he trades.

 

[dragoniteuser]

To finaly answer the poor guy's question: Dragonite can be an awesome mixed sweeper, both physical and special, and that's something that Kingdra can only dream about!

 

[blaQk]

Flygon won't be sweeping Lance any time soon, since Gyarados is going to Intimidate it, reducing it's effectiveness from the start.

Jolly Flygon @ Life Orb, 252 ATK, -1 ATK, does 34.0% - 40.1% to Gyarados @ Impish nature, 252 HP/252 DEF with Stone Edge. Adamant does 36.5% - 43.1%. Please note that these stats are calculated with both pokemon at level 100, and saying Lance has decided to EV train a flawless, Impish Gyarados.

tl;dr: Jolly Flygon with -1 will sweep Lance.

Flygons most powerful attack against Lance's Dragonites is Draco Meteor, and even then Flygon has to switch out, or Dragon Claw, which is rather pitiful in terms of damage..

Why would you put a special move on a physical pokemon?

No, Draco Meteor is not Flygon's strongest attack, Outrage is.

Starmie can spam Ice Beams, or Blizzard, as well as Surf/Hydro Pump and Thunder/Thunderbolt for risk takers, and recover off the damage, or use Gravity to make sure the powerful yet inaccurate moves hit everytime. A final note is that Modest Starmie is faster than Jolly Flygon, meaning that Starmie is more powerful and faster, and hits Lance harder.

Lol @ Gravity

In a competitive sense, Flygon will be running @ Scarf. Meaning that Starmie is out-sped and hit with U-Turn for super effect and dealing somewhere around 50% (not going to run the numbers).

Lastly, an Adamant Flygon @ Life Orb will still out-speed all of Lance's team, lol. So I'm not really sure why Starmie's speed matters. Also, Jolly Flygon @ Life Orb, 252 ATK, does 82.9% - 97.9% to Impish (lol) Dragonite, 252 HP/252 DEF with Outrage. While Timid Starmie @ Life Orb, 252 SPA, does 83.9% - 99.5% to Careful Dragonite, 252 HP/252 SPD with Ice Beam. Congrats, your super duper x4 Ice-type attack is ~2% stronger than x2 Dragon-type against a Impish Dragonite that no one uses.

"You'll be in major trouble with Lance if that kingdra gets knocked out" should tell you that the OP should consider an ice pokemon (which I should've clarified as something that can use ice attacks effectively) in addition to kingdra.

How? He has Feraligatr, which I'm sure all of you forgot about, can learn Ice Punch.

None of OP's other pokemon have an overwhelming advantage against dragons. Given that all of Lance's pokemon except 1 carry a dragon move, kingdra could be in major trouble, especially since it's not exactly going to outrace everything and knock them all out in one hit. A properly trained starmie with surf/icebeam/thunderbolt could easily sweep through Lance.

See above, lol.

Also, a properly trained anything can easily sweep Lance, lol.

Re-read the original post. "i have a team that needs a dragon because it took me forevcer to beat the eighth badge in HG i had to use my gengar and at least 3 revives."

Got me.

That's a bad set for a competitive Kingdra Ingame it's fine. Dragon pulse so you won't have to deal with the 2 Stage Sp.Atk loss.

Dragon Dance, is rubbish on Kingdra ingame, because of the lack of Physical moves
Other than Waterfall and Outrage, he also has no access to Outrage unless he trades.

He wants to beat his friends also, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and say they are good.

Dragon Dance on Kingdra is not rubbish considering Waterfall and Outrage pretty much hit everything for at least neutral, lolol.

To finaly answer the poor guy's question: Dragonite can be an awesome mixed sweeper, both physical and special, and that's something that Kingdra can only dream about!

We have answered his question.

Also, Kingdra can also me an "awesome mixed sweeper", lol.

 

[Corruptodile]

@BlaQk

Assuming we are taking the same Gyarados and Flygon into question, level 100 with 252 HP / 252 Def Gyara, with the Flygon being 252 Attack / 252 Speed I'm assuming, then the same Gyarados does 90% to 107% with Ice Fang. That's a clear 2HKO at the very least, and your Flygon can only muster a 3HKO on Gyarados. That's also a Gyarados WITHOUT a Life Orb, if it did have a Life Orb, it would be a OHKO without a doubt.

As for Draco Meteor vs Outrage, with max in each stat using a +speed nature, Draco Meteor only just beats Outrage, by a margin of two HP. The reason why I said Draco Meteor is the stronger attack, bar the above shoddy calculation I did above, is that Outrage isn't normally available before you beat Lance, unless you're trading to Platinum/another Heart Gold/Soul Silver. Please correct me if I am wrong. Obviously after 1 Draco Meteor, Outrage does more damage.

True, most Flygon do run Scarf sets, unfortunately, your opponent has 5 other pokemon to take hits with. What's more, Starmie can recover of the damage. (I do admit however, if Gravity is used competitively, it's useless unless a team is built around it).

I said Modest Starmie not Timid. The damage calculation would be 92%-108%. Much more powerful me thinks. And yes, Ice Beam is super duper thank you very much.

Super effective Outrage with STAB: 360
x4 Super effective Ice Beam without STAB: 360

Considering Dragonite has 95 base Defence and 100 base Special Defence, Starmie out damages it even when Timid, as your original calculation shows.

If you reply, note if I feel a reply is needed, I'm going to mail it you, since this post is getting pretty big, thinking about choosing which dragon is better.

 

[blaQk]

@BlaQk

Assuming we are taking the same Gyarados and Flygon into question, level 100 with 252 HP / 252 Def Gyara, with the Flygon being 252 Attack / 252 Speed I'm assuming, then the same Gyarados does 90% to 107% with Ice Fang. That's a clear 2HKO at the very least, and your Flygon can only muster a 3HKO on Gyarados. That's also a Gyarados WITHOUT a Life Orb, if it did have a Life Orb, it would be a OHKO without a doubt.

As for Draco Meteor vs Outrage, with max in each stat using a +speed nature, Draco Meteor only just beats Outrage, by a margin of two HP. The reason why I said Draco Meteor is the stronger attack, bar the above shoddy calculation I did above, is that Outrage isn't normally available before you beat Lance, unless you're trading to Platinum/another Heart Gold/Soul Silver. Please correct me if I am wrong. Obviously after 1 Draco Meteor, Outrage does more damage.

True, most Flygon do run Scarf sets, unfortunately, your opponent has 5 other pokemon to take hits with. What's more, Starmie can recover of the damage. (I do admit however, if Gravity is used competitively, it's useless unless a team is built around it).

I said Modest Starmie not Timid. The damage calculation would be 92%-108%. Much more powerful me thinks. And yes, Ice Beam is super duper thank you very much.

Super effective Outrage with STAB: 360
x4 Super effective Ice Beam without STAB: 360

Considering Dragonite has 95 base Defence and 100 base Special Defence, Starmie out damages it even when Timid, as your original calculation shows.

If you reply, note if I feel a reply is needed, I'm going to mail it you, since this post is getting pretty big, thinking about choosing which dragon is better.

- This is in-game, not shoddy, lol.
- I'm not 100% (since I can't remember nor find it anywhere), but I don't think Lance's Gyarados knows Ice Fang.
- You can breed for Outrage.
- Modest Starmie is like, non-existent.

 

[jjnerdful]

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lance
Gyarados knows ice fang.

"How? He has Feraligatr, which I'm sure all of you forgot about, can learn Ice Punch."
And you forgot that that same feraligatr did just about nothing for OP for a gym battle against... wait for it... Dragons! Remind me what many of Lance's pokemon are, again?

Feraligatr isn't exactly speedy or bulky (on special side, anyway). Chances are it won't be able to do much against any of the dragonites (this is not a pokemon expert we're talking about here). Generally faster pokes are easier to use in-game. So something like starmie is a better/easier option for OP.

 

[blaQk]

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lance
Gyarados knows ice fang.

"How? He has Feraligatr, which I'm sure all of you forgot about, can learn Ice Punch."
And you forgot that that same feraligatr did just about nothing for OP for a gym battle against... wait for it... Dragons! Remind me what many of Lance's pokemon are, again?

Feraligatr isn't exactly speedy or bulky (on special side, anyway). Chances are it won't be able to do much against any of the dragonites (this is not a pokemon expert we're talking about here). Generally faster pokes are easier to use in-game. So something like starmie is a better/easier option for OP.

I love how you just made no sense, at all.

Feraligatr will KO or THKO every Dragon-type besides Kingdra, in-game, with Ice Punch. Why didn't it help in the gym? Probably because he hasn't taught it Ice Punch yet.

I don't know where you got special attacks at. Dragonite walls special attacks amazingly well, but can't wall physicals. And you don't need a freaking 493 speed pokemon to out-run in-game pokes since they are not EV'd and proabably don't have a decent nature. One Dragon Dance from Dragonite or Kingdra and he will both out-run and sweep Lance.

Starmie @ bad, lol.

 

[jjnerdful]

You made no sense whatsoever. I said nothing about special attacks.

Read what I said again. Feraligatr is not bulky (bulk = defense, not attack) on special side. It can be brought down by strong special attacks. Given that Lance's dragons all carry strong special attacks with them, OP's feraligatr probably won't survive for long.

Did you see Lance's Dragonites' movesets? Again, this is not an expert we're talking about here. Unless feraligatr is at a higher level than dragonites (doubtful), chances are it won't outrace Lance's pokemon and will get knocked out itself. We're not even talking about dragonite/kingdra right now, dunno where you got that from. Even DD dragonite/kingdra is risky on OP's hands because of the thunderwaves the dragonites have.

You clearly don't realize how useful starmie can be. It has strong sp att and high speed. It can easily take down all of Lance's pokemon with just surf/boltbeam.

 

[blaQk]

You made no sense whatsoever. I said nothing about special attacks.

Read what I said again. Feraligatr is not bulky (bulk = defense, not attack) on special side. It can be brought down by strong special attacks. Given that Lance's dragons all carry strong special attacks with them, OP's feraligatr probably won't survive for long.

Did you see Lance's Dragonites' movesets? Again, this is not an expert we're talking about here. Unless feraligatr is at a higher level than dragonites (doubtful), chances are it won't outrace Lance's pokemon and will get knocked out itself. We're not even talking about dragonite/kingdra right now, dunno where you got that from. Even DD dragonite/kingdra is risky on OP's hands because of the thunderwaves the dragonites have.

You clearly don't realize how useful starmie can be. It has strong sp att and high speed. It can easily take down all of Lance's pokemon with just surf/boltbeam.

You clearly don't realize how bad at this game you are.

 

[okjoek]

Probably dragonite, kingdra is nice If your making an all dragon team but if you have to choose between the two dragonite.

 

[jjnerdful]

You clearly don't realize how bad at this game you are.

You clearly don't realize that finding the easiest, SIMPLEST way is best for people who aren't experts at pokemon.

 

[Aurafire]

Is any of this arguing helping the OP and his team? :/

Please stop or I'll start handing out infractions.

 

[simba.vs.bruce]

i picked kingdra and i have beaten the elite four
it weas hard but i did it
maybe dragonite would have been a little easier i don't know
thanks to my gengar and kingdra all else got destroyed...thanks for ya'lls help

 

[ABSOLutely]

just use gyarados and something that knows stone edge for the thunder dragonite and you'll be fine. Its an ingame team, you'll piss all over lance if you do a bit of grinding, pick what you like best !