Debate Michael Brown killing, and racism in the police force

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Spinning off from another topic I figured I would open one here, a big discussion across the world seems to be questions of profiling and racism in the police.

Do you believe that the police in your area exhibit traits or white supremacy/racism?

Has there been a murder or killing that you think was influenced by white supremacy/racism?

Michael Brown was brought up in the previous topic, and while I whole heartedly disagree, here is a link to the Justice Department study for the incident involving his death.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/defau...doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf

 

[Hands]

I think the Brown case is interesting because one side tries to paint this insane David and Goliath narrative where poor officer Wilson was fighting for his life from a terrifying brute who attacked him without mercy and the other side paints a racist execution and neither are true. Especially when you consider that Brown and Wilson were the same height and that Brown was fat whereas Wilson was athletic.





Wilson reached for his gun first. He shot at a fleeing Brown, we know this from bullet casings at the scene. He then proceeded to advance on Brown who was hiding behind a car, before Brown came out from behind the car and moved toward Wilson who then put 10 more rounds out, one missing and going into the street.

There's the "life threatening" injury that caused Officer Wilson to push hard on an already shot and fleeing suspect who he could have incapacitated with a leg shot. I don't think Wilson behaved so poorly because Brown was black, I think Wilson behaved so poorly because he was trained poorly and was angry he got punched. It was a disproportionate response. If soldiers can capture their enemies at the end of a firefight and can do so without executing them in anger then there is no reason cops cannot, particularly when their 'enemy' is unarmed.


To be clear, the only innocent party in the engagement was Johnson, who tried to calm the initial situation down and hid behind a car alongside Brown. Brown shouldn't have attacked Wilson, Wilson absolutely should have not put 10 rounds at close range into an already injured suspect. But like I said, I don't think racism played a part, I think anger and poor self control did.

 

[Hands]

As for white supremacy cop murders


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

killed for selling loose cigarettes



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice

Killed for having a toy gun


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

Killed for following protocol



These things happen to whites with a lot less frequency. Black lives are just seen as less important by a good chunk of US law enforcement (some of these chiefs were cops back in the civil rights days) and is reflective of a deeper issue in America as a whole. Is every white cop a racist? Of course not, that'd be a stupid thing to say. But the institution itself is propped up by, and is completely complicit with, racism.




https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...victims-corruption-maurice-ward-a8189731.html

Then there's this, which is a level beyond disgusting

 

[EnglishALT]

Alright lets compare what you said with the Justice Department conclusion as its the most comprehensive review you will find on the net.

Wilson reached for his gun first. He shot at a fleeing Brown, we know this from bullet casings at the scene. He then proceeded to advance on Brown who was hiding behind a car, before Brown came out from behind the car and moved toward Wilson who then put 10 more rounds out, one missing and going into the street.

True: Officer Wilson reached for his gun first, as the report notes it is the only weapon closest to him and Michael Brown was reaching into the car and attacking him.

"Wilson told prosecutors and investigators that he responded to Brown reaching into the
SUV and punching him by withdrawing his gun because he could not access less lethal weapons
while seated inside the SUV. Brown then grabbed the weapon and struggled with Wilson to gain
control of it. Wilson fired, striking Brown in the hand. Autopsy results and bullet trajectory,
skin from Brown's palm on the outside of the SUV door as well as Brown's DNA on the inside
of the driver's door corroborate Wilson's account that during the struggle, Brown used his right
hand to grab and attempt to control Wilson's gun. According to three autopsies, Brown
sustained a close range gunshot wound to the fleshy portion of his right hand at the base of his
right thumb. Soot from the muzzle of the gun found embedded in the tissue of this wound
coupled with indicia of thermal change from the heat of the muzzle indicate that Brown's hand
was within inches of the muzzle of Wilson's gun when it was fired. The location of the
recovered bullet in the side panel of the driver's door, just above Wilson's lap, also corroborates
Wilson's account of the struggle over the gun and when the gun was fired, as do witness
accounts that Wilson fired at least one shot from inside the SUV. "

False: Michael Brown was not shot while fleeing away.

"After the initial shooting inside the SUV, the evidence establishes that Brown ran
eastbound on Canfield Drive and Wilson chased after him. The autopsy results confirm that
Wilson did not shoot Brown in the back as he was running away because there were no entrance
wounds to Brown's back. The autopsy results alone do not indicate the direction Brown was
facing when he received two wounds to his right arm, given the mobility of the arm. However,
as detailed later in this report, there are no witness accounts that could be relied upon in a
prosecution to prove that Wilson shot at Brown as he was running away. Witnesses who say so
cannot be relied upon in a prosecution because they have given accounts that are inconsistent
with the physical and forensic evidence or are significantly inconsistent with their own prior
statements made throughout the investigation. "

False: Michael Brown was not hiding behind a car as Officer Wilson advanced upon him.

"Brown ran at least 180 feet away from the SUV, as verified by the location of bloodstains
on the roadway, which DNA analysis confirms was Brown's blood. Brown then turned around
and came back toward Wilson, falling to his death approximately 21.6 feet west of the blood in
the roadway. Those witness accounts stating that Brown never moved back toward Wilson could
not be relied upon in a prosecution because their accounts cannot be reconciled with the DNA
bloodstain evidence and other credible witness accounts."

There's the "life threatening" injury that caused Officer Wilson to push hard on an already shot and fleeing suspect who he could have incapacitated with a leg shot. I don't think Wilson behaved so poorly because Brown was black, I think Wilson behaved so poorly because he was trained poorly and was angry he got punched. It was a disproportionate response. If soldiers can capture their enemies at the end of a firefight and can do so without executing them in anger then there is no reason cops cannot, particularly when their 'enemy' is unarmed.

In this situation, Michael Brown had already shown a capacity for violence in the cop car, and was charging at Officer Wilson, who only had a few brief seconds to decide to shoot to kill or not. Any trained cop or soldier will tell you in that situation you go for the chest, as you do not know what will happen if you miss and he is able to grab you and get your gun.

To be clear, the only innocent party in the engagement was Johnson, who tried to calm the initial situation down and hid behind a car alongside Brown. Brown shouldn't have attacked Wilson, Wilson absolutely should have not put 10 rounds at close range into an already injured suspect. But like I said, I don't think racism played a part, I think anger and poor self control did.

This is the same man who also perpetuated the myth of "Hands up Dont Shoot" please do not rely on information from Dorian Johnson, he is a very unreliable witness.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...n-learned-from-the-shooting-of-michael-brown/

 

[Hands]

Alright lets compare what you said with the Justice Department conclusion as its the most comprehensive review you will find on the net.



True: Officer Wilson reached for his gun first, as the report notes it is the only weapon closest to him and Michael Brown was reaching into the car and attacking him.

"Wilson told prosecutors and investigators that he responded to Brown reaching into the
SUV and punching him by withdrawing his gun because he could not access less lethal weapons
while seated inside the SUV. Brown then grabbed the weapon and struggled with Wilson to gain
control of it. Wilson fired, striking Brown in the hand. Autopsy results and bullet trajectory,
skin from Brown's palm on the outside of the SUV door as well as Brown's DNA on the inside
of the driver's door corroborate Wilson's account that during the struggle, Brown used his right
hand to grab and attempt to control Wilson's gun. According to three autopsies, Brown
sustained a close range gunshot wound to the fleshy portion of his right hand at the base of his
right thumb. Soot from the muzzle of the gun found embedded in the tissue of this wound
coupled with indicia of thermal change from the heat of the muzzle indicate that Brown's hand
was within inches of the muzzle of Wilson's gun when it was fired. The location of the
recovered bullet in the side panel of the driver's door, just above Wilson's lap, also corroborates
Wilson's account of the struggle over the gun and when the gun was fired, as do witness
accounts that Wilson fired at least one shot from inside the SUV. "

False: Michael Brown was not shot while fleeing away.

"After the initial shooting inside the SUV, the evidence establishes that Brown ran
eastbound on Canfield Drive and Wilson chased after him. The autopsy results confirm that
Wilson did not shoot Brown in the back as he was running away because there were no entrance
wounds to Brown's back. The autopsy results alone do not indicate the direction Brown was
facing when he received two wounds to his right arm, given the mobility of the arm. However,
as detailed later in this report, there are no witness accounts that could be relied upon in a
prosecution to prove that Wilson shot at Brown as he was running away. Witnesses who say so
cannot be relied upon in a prosecution because they have given accounts that are inconsistent
with the physical and forensic evidence or are significantly inconsistent with their own prior
statements made throughout the investigation. "

False: Michael Brown was not hiding behind a car as Officer Wilson advanced upon him.

"Brown ran at least 180 feet away from the SUV, as verified by the location of bloodstains
on the roadway, which DNA analysis confirms was Brown's blood. Brown then turned around
and came back toward Wilson, falling to his death approximately 21.6 feet west of the blood in
the roadway. Those witness accounts stating that Brown never moved back toward Wilson could
not be relied upon in a prosecution because their accounts cannot be reconciled with the DNA
bloodstain evidence and other credible witness accounts."



In this situation, Michael Brown had already shown a capacity for violence in the cop car, and was charging at Officer Wilson, who only had a few brief seconds to decide to shoot to kill or not. Any trained cop or soldier will tell you in that situation you go for the chest, as you do not know what will happen if you miss and he is able to grab you and get your gun.




This is the same man who also perpetuated the myth of "Hands up Dont Shoot" please do not rely on information from Dorian Johnson, he is a very unreliable witness.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...n-learned-from-the-shooting-of-michael-brown/

I didn't say he shot him in the back, I said he shot at him as he fled. There's a bullet casing that corroborates this. The stray shot found in the sidewalk may have even been this one.



"In this situation, Michael Brown had already shown a capacity for violence in the cop car, and was charging at Officer Wilson, who only had a few brief seconds to decide to shoot to kill or not. Any trained cop or soldier will tell you in that situation you go for the chest, as you do not know what will happen if you miss and he is able to grab you and get your gun."


He was unarmed and already shot. Also, that is not what any soldier will tell you. Soldiers manage to capture armed enemies often enough. Never mind someone with a chunk of his hand already blasted out, who was already losing blood and who had no weapon. Sorry, but what you're saying here is fantasy. Brown was no longer a danger, Wilson could have easily gone for the legs. Brown was shot four times in the head/neck.

I was actually wrong, i assumed nine of the shots hit Brown considering how many casings there were. Five-eight hit him in the volley of 10 shots, meaning that Wilson managed to lose up to five rounds in a public space in his manic firing. Probably because he was going for the head.

 

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I didn't say he shot him in the back, I said he shot at him as he fled. There's a bullet casing that corroborates this. The stray shot found in the sidewalk may have even been this one.

I searched through the entire document for information on him shooting at Brown while fleeing, the only information is from people who were considered unreliable as they provided additional false statements. Can you provide where you are getting this information?

Edit: I will note this from the report:

"The locations of the shell casings are consistent with Wilson's account and the credible witness
accounts. However, shell casings provide limited evidentiary value relative to the precise
location of the shooter and bullet trajectory because they tend to bounce and roll unpredictably
after being ejected from the firearm and before coming to rest. "

He was unarmed and already shot. Also, that is not what any soldier will tell you. Soldiers manage to capture armed enemies often enough. Never mind someone with a chunk of his hand already blasted out, who was already losing blood and who had no weapon. Sorry, but what you're saying here is fantasy. Brown was no longer a danger, Wilson could have easily gone for the legs. Brown was shot four times in the head/neck.

Well lets look at what the training in this scenario dictates.

"Police are trained to stop dangerous, life-threatening or murderous behavior, Kelly said. This holds true for all police departments across the country, he added.

Anytime a firearm is discharged, it's considered deadly force, said David Klinger, professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice at the University of Missouri-St. Louis. Shooting to injure or maim someone wouldn't stop an aggressive subject, Klinger said, and officers are trying to stop the threat to their life, or the life of their partner or a citizen.

"Why would we want to injure or maim people?" he said. "It doesn't stop them."

Because of the potential risks, it would be "very difficult" to train officers to shoot to wound instead, Kelly said. If someone's life is in jeopardy, shooting to maim or injure will have little effect on the actions of the individual who is trying to kill, Klinger added.

Additionally, if an officer aims at anything other than the torso area, the odds that he or she will miss increase greatly, Klinger said. But aiming for the chest means that the type of wounds suspects usually sustain are likely to be fatal, he added."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-trained-shoot-wound-experts/story?id=40402933

Michael Brown had an injured thumb, that was all, he was bleeding but still couscous enough to turn and charge at the police officer, he was not going to stop unless he was shot at. You assume that he was no longer a danger, but that is a rather massive assumption considering he was still able to run, both away and toward Officer Wilson, and was largely uninjured.

By the way just a quick searching so far I have found no military policy that focuses on a "Shoot to wound" in a life threatening scenario. Also further on the soldier comparison, soldiers tend to have multiple other soldiers with them to subdue an armed target, Wilson was alone, and thus had no help if Brown were to get the gun.

I was actually wrong, i assumed nine of the shots hit Brown considering how many casings there were. Five-eight hit him in the volley of 10 shots, meaning that Wilson managed to lose up to five rounds in a public space in his manic firing. Probably because he was going for the head.

Is there anything in the report or his testimony that suggests he was going for the head? Or was he shooting at the center of mass as he was trained to do, and Michael Brown's head was struck during it?

Note the autopsy report suggests the ones that hit his head were the result of Brown falling down, most likely after having been struck in the chest. Thus the final shots, and not an indicator that he was going for the head.

"The order of the remaining shots cannot be determined, though the shot to Brown's head
would have killed him where he stood, preventing him from making any additional purposeful
movement toward Wilson after the final shots were fired.14 The fatal bullet entered the skull, the
brain, and the base of the skull, and came to rest in the soft tissues of the right face. The
trajectory of the bullet was downward, forward, and to the right. Brown could not have been
standing straight when Wilson fired this bullet because Wilson is slightly shorter than Brown.
Brown was likely bent at the waist or falling forward when he received this wound. It is also
possible, although not consistent with credible eyewitness accounts, that Brown had fallen to his
knees with his head forward when Wilson fired this shot. However, the lack of stippling and
soot indicates that Wilson was at least two to three feet from Brown when he fired."

 

[Hands]

I searched through the entire document for information on him shooting at Brown while fleeing, the only information is from people who were considered unreliable as they provided additional false statements. Can you provide where you are getting this information?

Edit: I will note this from the report:

"The locations of the shell casings are consistent with Wilson's account and the credible witness
accounts. However, shell casings provide limited evidentiary value relative to the precise
location of the shooter and bullet trajectory because they tend to bounce and roll unpredictably
after being ejected from the firearm and before coming to rest. "



Well lets look at what the training in this scenario dictates.

"Police are trained to stop dangerous, life-threatening or murderous behavior, Kelly said. This holds true for all police departments across the country, he added.

Anytime a firearm is discharged, it's considered deadly force, said David Klinger, professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice at the University of Missouri-St. Louis. Shooting to injure or maim someone wouldn't stop an aggressive subject, Klinger said, and officers are trying to stop the threat to their life, or the life of their partner or a citizen.

"Why would we want to injure or maim people?" he said. "It doesn't stop them."

Because of the potential risks, it would be "very difficult" to train officers to shoot to wound instead, Kelly said. If someone's life is in jeopardy, shooting to maim or injure will have little effect on the actions of the individual who is trying to kill, Klinger added.

Additionally, if an officer aims at anything other than the torso area, the odds that he or she will miss increase greatly, Klinger said. But aiming for the chest means that the type of wounds suspects usually sustain are likely to be fatal, he added."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-trained-shoot-wound-experts/story?id=40402933

Michael Brown had an injured thumb, that was all, he was bleeding but still couscous enough to turn and charge at the police officer, he was not going to stop unless he was shot at. You assume that he was no longer a danger, but that is a rather massive assumption considering he was still able to run, both away and toward Officer Wilson, and was largely uninjured.

By the way just a quick searching so far I have found no military policy that focuses on a "Shoot to wound" in a life threatening scenario. Also further on the soldier comparison, soldiers tend to have multiple other soldiers with them to subdue an armed target, Wilson was alone, and thus had no help if Brown were to get the gun.



Is there anything in the report or his testimony that suggests he was going for the head? Or was he shooting at the center of mass as he was trained to do, and Michael Brown's head was struck during it?

Note the autopsy report suggests the ones that hit his head were the result of Brown falling down, most likely after having been struck in the chest. Thus the final shots, and not an indicator that he was going for the head.

"The order of the remaining shots cannot be determined, though the shot to Brown's head
would have killed him where he stood, preventing him from making any additional purposeful
movement toward Wilson after the final shots were fired.14 The fatal bullet entered the skull, the
brain, and the base of the skull, and came to rest in the soft tissues of the right face. The
trajectory of the bullet was downward, forward, and to the right. Brown could not have been
standing straight when Wilson fired this bullet because Wilson is slightly shorter than Brown.
Brown was likely bent at the waist or falling forward when he received this wound. It is also
possible, although not consistent with credible eyewitness accounts, that Brown had fallen to his
knees with his head forward when Wilson fired this shot. However, the lack of stippling and
soot indicates that Wilson was at least two to three feet from Brown when he fired."

Shell casing near the car is not likely to have come from 180 foot away where the other casings were found. I dunno what your experience with firearms is but casings do not travel that far. At any rate, from the autopsy and Wilson's own account we already know Brown's hand was completely ruined in the initial shooting. He no longer possessed a credible threat.



"Brown was likely bent at the waist or falling forward when he received this wound. It is also
possible, although not consistent with credible eyewitness accounts, that Brown had fallen to his
knees with his head forward when Wilson fired this shot. However, the lack of stippling and
soot indicates that Wilson was at least two to three feet from Brown when he fired."


I don't know what you think this proves? Brown and Wilson were both 6'4. It's clear the last shot however entered Brown's skull as he either stumbled or fell, likely from having his eye shot out already. Whatever way you want to spin this, Wilson's life was never once in danger. If a regular member of the public shot someone four times in the head for punching them in the face (which we can see is minor bruising) they would be going down. Wilson acted with anger, not professionalism.


"Because of the potential risks, it would be "very difficult" to train officers to shoot to wound instead, Kelly said. If someone's life is in jeopardy, shooting to maim or injure will have little effect on the actions of the individual who is trying to kill, Klinger added."


This is incredibly, incredibly disingenuous. The only person who's life was in jeopardy was Brown. Shooting someone who is unarmed and who can no longer punch in the legs would completely incapacitate them.


"Is there anything in the report or his testimony that suggests he was going for the head? Or was he shooting at the center of mass as he was trained to do, and Michael Brown's head was struck during it?"



He doesn't land a single shot on center mass, he lands four on the head. It was aimed. Unless you think Officer Wilson is that incapable that he cannot adequately use his service weapon?

 

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Shell casing near the car is not likely to have come from 180 foot away where the other casings were found. I dunno what your experience with firearms is but casings do not travel that far. At any rate, from the autopsy and Wilson's own account we already know Brown's hand was completely ruined in the initial shooting. He no longer possessed a credible threat.

He no longer possessed a credible threat with that one hand, unless Brown was an amputee he still had one hand that was unmangled and able to engage Officer Wilson with.

Also two shell casings were found by the car, most likely those are from the shots that happened within the car, and rolled out when Officer Wilson left the car.

"Of particular interest for evaluating Wilson's testimony is the location of the 12 shell casings recovered. Two of them were recovered close to Wilson's car, conforming to his testimony about his firing two shots there (vol. V, 226:4). After that, the remaining 10 casings were recovered adjacent to (or behind) the path that Wilson said Brown took when charging toward him. This was consistent with Wilson firing a series of shots as Brown rushed toward him, all the while backpedaling to try and increase the distance."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/

I don't know what you think this proves? Brown and Wilson were both 6'4. It's clear the last shot however entered Brown's skull as he either stumbled or fell, likely from having his eye shot out already. Whatever way you want to spin this, Wilson's life was never once in danger. If a regular member of the public shot someone four times in the head for punching them in the face (which we can see is minor bruising) they would be going down. Wilson acted with anger, not professionalism.

You keep saying his life was never in danger as if you were at the situation. Michael Brown had punched Officer Wilson in the head, tried to strangle him, reached for his gun, ran, and then turned around and ran at Officer Wilson, what in the previous minute of the altercation suggests that Michael Brown was not going to act in a violent manner when he reached Officer Wilson?

This is incredibly, incredibly disingenuous. The only person who's life was in jeopardy was Brown. Shooting someone who is unarmed and who can no longer punch in the legs would completely incapacitate them.

He could no longer punch? Did he only have one hand?

He doesn't land a single shot on center mass, he lands four on the head. It was aimed. Unless you think Officer Wilson is that incapable that he cannot adequately use his service weapon?

Your own autopsy picture shows that he was aiming for the center of mass, specifically between the neck and naval, as five bullets struck that area.

 

[Hands]

He no longer possessed a credible threat with that one hand, unless Brown was an amputee he still had one hand that was unmangled and able to engage Officer Wilson with.

You ever tried knocking someone out with your non dominant hand? How about after significant blood loss? And that guy has a gun?

He wasn't a credible threat at all.

Also two shell casings were found by the car, most likely those are from the shots that happened within the car, and rolled out when Officer Wilson left the car.

I actually meant to address this in the other thread where you claimed that Brown caused "several shots" to go off. The report lists "at least one shot" was fired in the car. That explains the shell casing close to the car, as it went out the window where Brown hit him. How do you explain the one nearly 25 ft away?

"Of particular interest for evaluating Wilson's testimony is the location of the 12 shell casings recovered. Two of them were recovered close to Wilson's car, conforming to his testimony about his firing two shots there (vol. V, 226:4). After that, the remaining 10 casings were recovered adjacent to (or behind) the path that Wilson said Brown took when charging toward him. This was consistent with Wilson firing a series of shots as Brown rushed toward him, all the while backpedaling to try and increase the distance."

https://imgur.com/mrC4uZs


Here, here's the actual lay of the land. You're presenting speculation at best here. The shell casings do not show that Wilson was backing off, they'd equally show he was pushing forward. Though you'll notice the shell casings around Brown follow a much tighter pattern than the two near the car.

You keep saying his life was never in danger

It wasn't he had one small bruise to his face.

as if you were at the situation.

I've been in far, far worse fights than someone giving me a red cheek.

Michael Brown had punched Officer Wilson in the head

Oh no, better go for the Glock! Come off it. He had a minor bruise (you've yet to address Wilson's 'injuries')

reached for his gun

Well, judging by the burning on the hand, it looks far more likely that Brown tried to push the gun away from him with his palm. Not that you've wanted us to discuss any of the injuries properly but, his hand was on the muzzle, not the slide. If he was grabbing the gun he'd have grabbed the slide.

ran

I mean, a cop just shot half his hand off for punching him, I'd have ran too.

and then turned around and ran at Officer Wilson

Right, at the same time Brown was "reaching into his waistband with his right hand"? Which Wilson said was still in his waistband when he died? Which the Medical Investigator said was not true and noted Brown's damaged hand was extended out? Funnily enough, Johnson said that Brown did advance on Wilson, but he wasnt running, but he was shouting. Johnson also says it looked like Brown was trying to raise his hands but couldn't due to being struck. Now what seems more likely? That the already notably wounded man reached for a non existent gun with his damaged hand, whilst running despite being incredibly fat, suffering from blood loss and only managed to cover about 10 feet? Or the account where an injured and angry man walked towards the cop shouting, got shot numerous times and died in the fashion that the Medical examiner reported?

what in the previous minute of the altercation suggests that Michael Brown was not going to act in a violent manner when he reached Officer Wilson?

The huge chunk missing from his hand and the fact he already tried to flee.

Furthermore as Police procedure dictates, Officer Wilson acted properly, the law also states similarly that a person can shoot to kill if they fear for their life, and the opponent is coming at them.

If you're afraid of a badly wounded, fat, bleeding man who's assault on you comprised of a small bruise then you shouldn't be in the uniform. It's absolutely pathetic that you try to dress up a punch in the face as somehow near lethal force.

He could no longer punch? Did he only have one hand?

Refer to my earlier comment. Brown barely bruised him with his good hand, he wasn't a threat with his left.

Your own autopsy picture shows that he was aiming for the center of mass, specifically between the neck and naval, as five bullets struck that area.

It absolutely does not lol.

Center mass is lower abdomen up to chest. It is not face and head.


Why did you even try and mask this thread as a wider discussion on white supremacy and law enforcement instead of just saying you want to discuss the Brown case? I posted a more wider reaching post which you ignored in favour of going over the same ground with me that we've covered time and time again. This is my last post on the Brown case. You want to present a narrative and that's fine but I'm done brick walling it with you. If you want to discuss the wider issue with the police then I'm more than happy to do that, but there's no deeper understanding to be achieved in a discussion where we pretend a punch constitutes as potential lethal force warranting four headshots.

 

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You ever tried knocking someone out with your non dominant hand? How about after significant blood loss? And that guy has a gun?

He wasn't a credible threat at all.

That is an assumption at best and not born out of the fact that he was charging at him with all intents and purposes being to harm Officer Wilson and get his gun as seen in the altercation in the car.

I actually meant to address this in the other thread where you claimed that Brown caused "several shots" to go off. The report lists "at least one shot" was fired in the car. That explains the shell casing close to the car, as it went out the window where Brown hit him. How do you explain the one nearly 25 ft away?

Where exactly is that? From the picture here there are two near the car, the rest near the body.

https://imgur.com/mrC4uZs


Here, here's the actual lay of the land. You're presenting speculation at best here. The shell casings do not show that Wilson was backing off, they'd equally show he was pushing forward. Though you'll notice the shell casings around Brown follow a much tighter pattern than the two near the car.

I am presenting the facts gathered by the actual report as gathered from the evidence and testimony provided.

It wasn't he had one small bruise to his face.

So Brown did not try to reach for the gun and did not try to strangle him?

I've been in far, far worse fights than someone giving me a red cheek.

Irrelevant.

Well, judging by the burning on the hand, it looks far more likely that Brown tried to push the gun away from him with his palm. Not that you've wanted us to discuss any of the injuries properly but, his hand was on the muzzle, not the slide. If he was grabbing the gun he'd have grabbed the slide.

That is an assumption it is equally as likely he was grabbing for any part of the gun in an attempt to pull it away. Seeing how he was assaulting Officer Wilson at the moment it seems far more likely he was going for the weapon.

I mean, a cop just shot half his hand off for punching him, I'd have ran too.

Would you have also turned around and then ran at the officer as well?

Right, at the same time Brown was "reaching into his waistband with his right hand"? Which Wilson said was still in his waistband when he died? Which the Medical Investigator said was not true and noted Brown's damaged hand was extended out? Funnily enough, Johnson said that Brown did advance on Wilson, but he wasnt running, but he was shouting. Johnson also says it looked like Brown was trying to raise his hands but couldn't due to being struck. Now what seems more likely? That the already notably wounded man reached for a non existent gun with his damaged hand, whilst running despite being incredibly fat, suffering from blood loss and only managed to cover about 10 feet? Or the account where an injured and angry man walked towards the cop shouting, got shot numerous times and died in the fashion that the Medical examiner reported?

Again when are you relying on Johnson's testimony when it has already been proven false and demonstrably untrue. Also I am going to go with the option based on the facts, not on the reliability of a witness that has already lied and was trying to cover for his friend.

The huge chunk missing from his hand and the fact he already tried to flee.

He was trying to flee by running directly at Officer Wilson? Usually when you flee you run the opposite direction.

If you're afraid of a badly wounded, fat, bleeding man who's assault on you comprised of a small bruise then you shouldn't be in the uniform. It's absolutely pathetic that you try to dress up a punch in the face as somehow near lethal force.

I consider punching and attempting to choke a Police Officer while also attempting to grab his gun, as evidence that his motives were to attack Officer Wilson and would have continued to do so if he had reached him again.

Refer to my earlier comment. Brown barely bruised him with his good hand, he wasn't a threat with his left.

And you believe this because of a bruise? Not his actual actions in the situation?

It absolutely does not lol.

Center mass is lower abdomen up to chest. It is not face and head.

When it comes to firearms the target of center of mass tends to be from the chest to the naval as shown here and pretty much any target practice picture.

https://concealednation.org/2015/11/why-we-always-aim-center-mass-instead-of-limbs-or-head/

Why did you even try and mask this thread as a wider discussion on white supremacy and law enforcement instead of just saying you want to discuss the Brown case? I posted a more wider reaching post which you ignored in favour of going over the same ground with me that we've covered time and time again. This is my last post on the Brown case. You want to present a narrative and that's fine but I'm done brick walling it with you. If you want to discuss the wider issue with the police then I'm more than happy to do that, but there's no deeper understanding to be achieved in a discussion where we pretend a punch constitutes as potential lethal force warranting four headshots.

Fair enough largely it is a carry over from the previous discussion but I wanted to make sure it was wide ranging enough to cover the original off topic purpose of the discussion which was White Supremacy and Law Enforcement.

Thank you for the debate.