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Official Test Thead for Bulky Nite.

Anti

Anti

return of the king
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    Well they have to be good, know where you need help and we can help. Obviously there is a communication breakdown of sorts here >.>

    Also, is that quote in your sig really fair when your EV spread is no better? I swear, the "hilarious quote" epidemic is going to be the downfall of the universe >.>

    Anyways, I can make EVs when I know the information I listed in my last post.
     
    Sora_8920

    Sora_8920

    ★
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    • She/Her
    • Seen May 10, 2024
    Anti-Pop said:
    Well they have to be good, know where you need help and we can help. Obviously there is a communication breakdown of sorts here >.>

    Also, is that quote in your sig really fair when your EV spread is no better? I swear, the "hilarious quote" epidemic is going to be the downfall of the universe >.>

    Anyways, I can make EVs when I know the information I listed in my last post.
    Click to expand...

    Well, to be bulky, obviously. And should I run Attack EVs? EDIT: I do kind of need help. =P
     

    Ársa

    k.
    • 1,831
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    sims796 said:
    I still didn't get an asnwer. What is this thread about? Are you just curious on DDNite? Cause I don't see what's to really discuss. I mean, if you need help on Nite, fine, but I don't see much to talk about.
    Click to expand...

    What he means is that he simply wants an opinion on whether it is an option to use over the likes of BulkyGara. (My problem still stands that he has no reasoning for the EV's, they are random, and the fact he hasn't really given us any idea on what it is meant to be countering etc.)

    For your EV's, you want to be aiming to get maximum effect. (i.e. Garchomp outruns what it needs to with 224 Spd EV's, and it can survive an Ice beam (depending on said opponent) with the remaining in HP, where as by making Spd 252, it cannot survive Ice Beam, but will not outspeed anything else)

    That is why you see people running damage calcs. Find the standard set for a pokemon that you want to beat. For instance:

    Gyarados@Leftovers
    Adamant
    212 HP, 16 Atk, 136 Def, 144 Spd

    Dragon Dance
    Taunt
    Waterfall
    Stone Edge

    Notes: The reasoning for the 144 spd EV's allows Gyarados to outspeed common threats such as Timid Gengar and Adamant Weavile after a Dragon Dance. Running more speed EV's will not help in any way, but will hinder your chances of surviving by detracting from your defenses.

    What Anti wants is for you to compile a list of pokemon you want Dragonite to counter, so he can aim for some stats to reach. (i.e. He wants to know how many EV's he should give to have the maximum effect)

    That is why Smogon's EV's are so used, is because they (in their opinion) give the best chance to counter what is needed. That is why sometimes people will say "252/252/4 spreads aren't that crash hot" et cetera.

    So yes, you need to compile a list of pokemon you are wanting to counter, so that Anti may run the neccessary calcs. (Or I could do it...)

    Regards,

    ~T_S

    P.S. I liek Mudkipz Anti...:P (It's temporary, I was just bored so I made it...)
     

    sims796

    We're A-Comin', Princess!
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    Thank you for actually answering, rather than sucking up for brownie points by begging one member for help. I don't even see the point of not having any attack invested. DDance needs something to work with. Now he can get help for others, rather than trying to get in with a particular member.
     

    cutopia

    • 9
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    • Seen Apr 26, 2008
    Ok, I'm still trying to figure out what's best to do with EVs too, so this thread is pretty interesting to me.

    What if he'd spread out his EVs? Put like 110 in attack, 100 in speed, 100 in HP, and 100 in def and sdef? So he'd have a semi-bulky dragonite ^^"

    Personally, I often feel very tempted to spread out my EVs. I reason to myself "hmm if I put some EVs in HP/def/sdef then my pokemon might be able to survive three rounds instead of two."

    Math-wise do EVs spread out like this make a difference in pokemon performance (is 25 stat points enough to make a pokemon survive an extra hit?) or do you really need to max out the given EV to 252 to make a big enough difference?
    Although even I (in my infinite n00bness) can easily see one would want to focus EVs on a pokemon that's only about attacking fast (I guess weaville might be an example of this... I'd just do 252 attack, 252 speed, and 6 HP for that guy), but I'd feel pretty tempted to try to make my dragonite even more survivable (since he's already sort of bulky to begin with) by spreading the EVs around a bit.
     

    Ársa

    k.
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    No, you miss the point. Spreading the EV's out doesn't help here. You look at common threats to this set of Dragonite and how you can manouevor the EV's so that it has a better chance. (i.e. Remove 36 Atk EV's into defense to help survive a CB Heracross Megahorn from 2HKO, while those Atk EV's don't make any difference to what Dragonite is able to KO in return.)

    Basically, you're trying to maximize what you have. As an example I gave, the standard Bulkydos runs 212HP/16Atk/100 Spd/180Def. Now, if you run 212HP/16Atk/144Spd/136Def, Gyarados is now able to outspeed common threats such as Timid Gengar and Adamant Weavile after 1 Dragon Dance, while still being able to take hits effectively.

    The basic problem with running a Bulkynite set is that the reason Gyarados and Salamence are used is because they have Intimidate. Dragonite doesn't have this, so wasn't originally considered.

    ~T_S
     
    Anti

    Anti

    return of the king
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    The thing with Dragonite is that its stats are VERY similar to Gyarados (very high attack, aerage speed, good SDef, decent Defense, pretty good HP) only Dragonite has much higher SAtk while gyarados has Intimidate, as well as the differneces in defensive typing.

    If you ask me, the set, EVs, and Bulky Dragonite in general should be able to distinguish itse4lf from Gyarados, as well as Salamence. One thing Dragonite has is a much better STAB than either one and doesn't have to rely on an ability as much as them to take hits.

    With that in mind, I think the set, nature, EVs, and everything about this pokemon should reflect these strengths.

    I'm totally swamped from the final four games though, so me actually giving examples would not be a good idea.
     
    Ooka

    Ooka

    [font=Maven Pro][color=#A75EE2]Cosmic[/color][/fon
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    Don't know if it's been said yet or not, but Dnite doesn't get Taunt, thus leading to it getting phazed much easier, thus fail....
     
    Anti

    Anti

    return of the king
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    Ooka said:
    Don't know if it's been said yet or not, but Dnite doesn't get Taunt, thus leading to it getting phazed much easier, thus fail....
    Click to expand...

    DDnite is stricly for late-game sweeping, so PHazers are out of the way and most can't take a DD Life Orb Outrage anyways, and what can doesn't necessarily like the rest of its movepool options.

    I'm sorry, but that post to me implies that DD users have to have Taunt to be good, which isn't true at all. Dragonite can beat PHazers by attacking them anyways (yeah, Skarmory doesn't like Fire Punch or Fire Blast very much).

    EDIT: this is Itachi's thread, I've been waiting for him to tell me what things it should survive. I'm good at making EVs with the proper info.
     
    Ooka

    Ooka

    [font=Maven Pro][color=#A75EE2]Cosmic[/color][/fon
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    Life orb? O_o

    I thought we were talking about the Bulky Set in the first post....
     

    Ársa

    k.
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    I'm good at making the EV's too, but I also need the info. :P

    Ok, how about:

    Dragonite@Leftovers
    Bold/Impish
    252 HP, 128 Spd, 32 Sp. Def, 96 Def
    Inner Focus

    Roost
    Thunder Wave/Heal Bell
    Ice Beam/Ice Punch
    Dragon Pulse/Dragon Claw

    Max HP + 32 Sp. Def lets it survive a Choice Scarf Gengar's Hidden Power ICE. 128 Spd outspeeds Gliscor, who can Taunt to cause problems I suppose. Roost is self-explanitory, Thunder Wave provides team support and helps with the lack of Dragon Dance, with Heal Bell helping Dragonite with status, making up for no Taunt. The Attacking options depend on what you want to KO really.

    Other Options:

    Dragon Dance can be considered, but this set is more focused on team support. Using Dragon Dance would mean less need for Speed EV's, so you could pump more into defense. Earthquake is nice for Tyranitar and Metagross, but will be 2HKO'ing, so you would need to on the switch. Fire Blast/Punch can be considered if you have Skarm/Forry problems, as well as coverage over Bronzong.

    Ice Punch vs Ice Beam:

    Well, Ice Beam helps to take threats such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, Donphan etc. Ice Punch OHKO's Garchomp, where as Ice Beam doesn't without EV investment.

    ~T_S
     
    Anti

    Anti

    return of the king
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    I little idea popped into my head...Reflect would be an interesting option and would more than make up for Intimidate, while we could EV HP and SDef more to make it almost like a wall.

    Also, I think focusing towards special attacks on a support set would be more wise, but both work (especially considering that Nite doesn't need as many EVs to power up its attacks with all that attack it has).

    Really, I don't think we should even care about Garchomp since it won't be switching in on us (unless it's Scarfed, and the risk of taking a Dragon attack is still very great) and if we switch in on Garchomo we are just stupid.

    Remeber, Flamethrower/Fire Punch offers far superior coverage and really does beat steels, who switch in on Nite just like bulky grounds, only we can stall those with Toxic and crap like that.

    Speaking of toxic...that would be wicked cool on this set, and then a kind of Roost/Toxistall thing going on. I say we punish people who don't use Bellers. That and punish common switch-ins that can't take it and punish steels with flamethrower.
     
    Ooka

    Ooka

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    One thing that I noticed is you're trying to compare this to BulkyDos, yet BulkyDos would murder it. I suggest TBolt or TPunch, depending on the nature you decide on.
     
    Anti

    Anti

    return of the king
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    Tortured_Soul said:
    Ok, so...

    Dragonite@Leftovers
    Bold
    252 HP, 128 Spd, 104 Sp. Def, 24 Def
    Inner Focus

    Roost
    Reflect
    Toxic
    Flamethrower/Fire Blast

    ~T_S
    Click to expand...

    Don't see the need for speed EVs, Gliscor rarely carries Taunt, and when it does you can just switch out, scare it off, and when you come back in, predict it coming in and launch Toxic at it switching in. also, I would vote for flamethrower so you have some chance at stalling. Dragon Pulse is an option, but of course steels will wall you like always.
     
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