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Old Gen Beginner's Class

Kevin Garrett

is a competitor
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    Old Gen Beginner's Class

    Interested in learning about OU before Fairy-types and Mega evolutions existed?
    Well, you clicked on the right thread. There are five other generations of Pokemon that once held the claim as the standard format (RBY, GSC, ADV, DPP, BW).

    Why should they matter?
    Simply put, each generation possesses its own distinct charm and balance that many seasoned players consider to be superior competitive challenges than the modern standard. Additionally, the OU that is currently played as the standard will no doubt make it's way into the ranks of old gens once a new addition is released on cartridges.

    How does this work?
    This thread will function as a simple Q&A thread for providing interest and insight into some of the best competition Pokemon has ever offered. As someone with experience with the old gens, I'll gladly answer anyone's question for starting out and improving in these old standard metagames. If you have a specific question as it relates to competition in The PokeCommunity League, feel free to send me a PM.

    Just in case no one wants to be the first one to ask a question, why not let me get things started?

    Q: With there being five old standards, which one is the best to learn?
    A: While there is no right answer here, it is hard to argue against ADV (gen 3) being the best version of Pokemon. It has all of the modern institutions (EVs, IVs, Natures) and possesses a high degree of balance that has progressively diminished through the inception of new gens.
     
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    Anti

    return of the king
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  • This looks great. I'll go ahead and start then.

    What does modern DPP look like? I haven't played DPP extensively since the Latias/Salamence days but would love to play it again. Besides some rudimentary "wow, Zapdos sure is popular now!" type of observations, I am unsure what characterizes the metagame. Is there a dominant team archetype or style? How are the games typically paced? Are old stalwarts like Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Starmie still extremely centralizing? What formerly popular Pokemon/sets have become ineffective or even obsolete? What has taken their place? Etc. (No need to trace the history of the metagame's development for the past six years, just curious what it looks like now.)

    More generally, how does one practice any past generation? While old gens show up in a lot of major Smogon tournaments, to say these are inaccessible for the vast number of PC members would be an understatement, and a cursory glance at their respective ladders on Showdown suggests that the ladder is practically useless for finding even mid-level games on even a semi-consistent basis. How do you overcome this?
     

    Kevin Garrett

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    Disclaimer: I don't want to alienate anyone who has never played a game of past gens. Don't let any of the other questions asked prevent you from asking something that doesn't seem as important. The answers in this post require some requisite knowledge to fully understand. Please do ask questions about the most basic of things in addition to any advanced questions you may have. Those questions are easy to answer so why not try?

    Anti

    Q: What does modern DPP look like?
    A: From a broad look, it's a lot more diverse from what you remember in the LatiMence days. Those threats centralized the metagame into using them and/or beating them with having a method to close a game. With their ban, a whole host of Pokemon are much more viable. Dragonite, for example, which was completely niche in those days is now a prominent threat. Grass-type like Shaymin, Breloom, Roserade, and Venusaur are able to run a variety of sets since there isn't an automatic check to them found on every team. The same goes for Fighting-types like Infernape, Machamp and others as being very potent. The emphasis on speed tiers is a little different. You're able to be more selective with where you cap certain things.

    Q: Is there a dominant team archetype or style?
    A: Bulky offense is prolific right now and with good reason. The most defining threats like Jirachi, Tyranitar, Zapdos, Dragonite, Heatran, etc. are really good at taking advantage of their coverage and move pool diversity. You can give those standards surprises, in addition to pairing them up with more interesting options like Bronzong, Clefable, Venusaur, and many others. In fact, there is so much diversity that the old standard stall team is not as reliable as it used to be in the LatiMence era. Stall can still be effective, but the approach is different from just selecting hazard setter, pseudo-hazer, and support. It requires more inspired choices because the threats you will be facing are not as limited as they once were.

    Q: How are the games typically paced?
    A: This is something newer players are not as accustom to -- the lead metagame. Without team preview, the lead is very important as a trend setter for the game. As someone who used to play it, you would still recognize they are broken down into classes. There are powerful offensive leads that require attention, such as Machamp or Dragonite. Dragonite in particular is a very scary lead that makes having a good lead matchup against it worthwhile. For example, if you have an Aerodactyl, Jirachi, or Flygon lead (which raises eyebrows at the possibility of it being CB as opposed to more common Scarf or Mix sets), Dragonite will be obligated to switch out in most instances. That will allow you to next have to confront it later in the match, likely with it taking SR damage, and probably having a better clue to its set through the scouting of other team members. The danger of Dragonite comes from having a lead that is vulnerable to it (opting for another focus to start the game) and being forced to determine what kind of attack it will fire off without any supporting evidence. Then there are supporting (SR) leads, which are your Aerodactyl, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Heatran, and like leads. Some leads can be either or both offensive and supporting like Heatran, Azelf, Metagross, etc. Ultimately, the lead metagame will determine the initial pace of the match. There is no defined pace of the metagame, much like current OU, it's determined by the team and the player.

    This was mostly an appetizer for the way the lead is played. If someone needs a more detailed answer for how the lead metagame works, I can answer that separately.

    Q: Are old stalwarts like Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Starmie still extremely centralizing?
    A: In a word, yes. It's not by any means a necessity that you use them, but there is a reason for their high usage. They are able to fill multiple needs in one team space. Moreover, except in the case of Starmie generally, you can still make use of them in a surprising way. Whether it's through using lesser seen coverage or support moves or the item, which can transform them into a lure with a damage-reducing berry for instance. Most importantly, especially in the case of Jirachi and Tyranitar, you'll need to make sure their various sets are accounted for in the coverage of your team. For Jirachi alone, there are probably 3 or 4 viable CM sets that don't have a single common counter.

    Q: What formerly popular Pokemon/sets have become ineffective or even obsolete? What has taken their place?
    A: Lumping these two questions together. Probably the most prominent example is Forretress. It was once a premier Spiker with tools to damage Starmie and Rotom, but their sheer prominence in addition to increasingly reduced opportunities to set up and support make it a less desirable choice in general for DPP. There isn't a particular replacement for Forretress in the metagame. Skarmory is still a premier Spiker that is still very effective in thanks to its reliable recovery and phazing. This mostly represents a shift in mindset for the player base. Of course, Roserade still provides a similar alternative with more specified coverage.

    To give another example, in terms of sets. Jirachi was at one time commonly seen with a Wish CM set with two coverage moves. That's shifted to being more commonly spotted using more SpA and Spe investment with three coverage moves, which is commonly seen with Psychic, Grass Knot, and HP Ground, but not restricted to using only those moves of course.

    Q: More generally, how does one practice any past generation? While old gens show up in a lot of major Smogon tournaments, to say these are inaccessible for the vast number of PC members would be an understatement, and a cursory glance at their respective ladders on Showdown suggests that the ladder is practically useless for finding even mid-level games on even a semi-consistent basis. How do you overcome this?
    A: All it takes is some initiative. The ladder on PS is a bit underutilized. It lacks top level competition, though there are a few players that have some talent. There's something to be gained from playing against any level of competition. Outside of the big tournaments, it's probably unlikely to face anyone of top level talent, which is unfortunate. Participation in those is important if you want to join those ranks. The fundamentals can be honed playing against anyone, though. Unless you can go undefeated on ladder, there is value to be had from playing those games to solidify yourself when the bigger challenges arise.
     
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    Anti

    return of the king
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  • Thanks for the in-depth reply. I have a follow-up:

    The emphasis on speed tiers is a little different. You're able to be more selective with where you cap certain things.

    Can you expand on this a little more? I just didn't know exactly what this looks like in more concrete terms (like with which mons or sets). I remember speed tiers being pretty straightforward, trying to tie +speed DDMence or beat Lucario, for example. How has it been nuanced? Thanks!

    (Also, re: tournament experience, I know Vrai suggested a year or so ago that interested players here should organize participation in these, which would be applicable here. It would be especially nice for Advance because it's not in Smogon Tour. At some point, people have to actually do it themselves though and actually take the leap, but that'd be super fun to pool our efforts a bit if anyone is interested.)
     

    Kevin Garrett

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    Q: Can you expand on this a little more? I just didn't know exactly what this looks like in more concrete terms (like with which mons or sets). I remember speed tiers being pretty straightforward, trying to tie +speed DDMence or beat Lucario, for example. How has it been nuanced? Thanks!
    A: That comment was a comparative reference to LatiMence DPP. You might recall there was a speed creep taking place among centralizing sets. Skarmory was one of the focal points of this focus on speed where unless you were running considerable speed investment, you would struggle to Spike and phaze from Taunt Skarms. If anything now, you see the reverse taking place for some Pokemon. Starmie does not always run fast variants. In fact, some sets will drop speed to 280 to invest in bulk to cover for certain threats. Many Breloom sets now involve investment like 240 HP / 56+ Atk / 160 Def / 52 SpD and other alternative bulky sets. Naturally, this is not the case for everything. While Dragonite will sometimes use DD with bulk, it's still important to make sure your revenge counters are still able to outspeed max 252. That's why I emphasized it as being more nuanced because it would probably take a comprehensive guide to outline all of the reasonable options.

    (Also, re: tournament experience, I know Vrai suggested a year or so ago that interested players here should organize participation in these, which would be applicable here. It would be especially nice for Advance because it's not in Smogon Tour. At some point, people have to actually do it themselves though and actually take the leap, but that'd be super fun to pool our efforts a bit if anyone is interested.)
    I agree with Vrai there. It's kind of disappointing from my point of view to know how good these metagames are and see showdown players (not necessarily people here) playing all of the random, themed metagames. I'm sure they are fun, but it's very difficult for those to come close to the strategic wealth that can be experienced from other OUs (or even other tiers like UU). The lack of attention mostly comes from the absence of meaningful events or tournaments in these formats. Maybe the League here can help introduce players to them.
     
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    What are good strategies to use against stall in ADV OU?
    Dugtrio, Magneton, Tyranitar, Heracross, etc. seem to stand out to me.

    What does modern BW OU look like?
    Are sand playstyles (e.g. bulky offense) still very dominant?
     

    Kevin Garrett

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    Q: What are good strategies to use against stall in ADV OU?
    A: It all depends on the specific team. Stall has a lot of counter options to basic strategies, which means there isn't a catch all strategy. For instance, Magneton sounds really good in theory, and many times it is effective in removing the Steel. However, I wouldn't be giving a thoughtful answer if I didn't say double Steel teams are impervious to this type of trap. They'll play the Forretress aggressive early to force the Magneton to come out of hiding, trap it with a Dugtrio, and use the more useful Skarmory for the important stages of the match.

    The most important mindset for defeating stall is pressure. It doesn't mater how it's generated. Trapping is an easy way to attempt ensuing pressure. Trapping has it's drawbacks because of the limited coverage and choice lock in the case of Dugtrio. Both of those can deflate momentum. It's generally best to apply pressure in the form of creative and/or diverse move set choices. Mix Mence (Fire Blast, Brick Break, HP Grass, Dragon Claw/Rock Slide) is a good example of this because it can effectively 2-3HKO the core of many stalls. Dragonite can run some pretty cool sets with either mix or Dragon Dance that are hard to check with something like Milotic or Swampert. There is Explosion and Self-Destruct, but this is a double edge sword naturally. Another thing you can do are different Mean Look combinations. And of course, a strong team with an overload style of offense usually has a fair chance of breaking through stall as long as the team is constructed with systematically removing walls in mind.

    You mentioned things like Heracross and Tyranitar, which are both pretty effective. In the case of Heracross, it's a threat that flies under the radar. It's not guaranteed for success, but when you use Heracross and let's say your opponent has it covered, you know by the list of things that reliable cover Heracross, you'll want to have teammates that abuse the team decisions of that stall to allow for its coverage. What does that mean? If it's something small like Fire Punch on Gengar, it can be scouted for and its presence will indicate a lack of another move. If the team has Salamence, then perhaps it lacks Skarmory or something of that nature for its phazer. The same applies for Gyarados honestly since electric attacks are more uncommon than in newer generations. With the case of Tyranitar, it's so diverse that the first look may not give them the proper check to your set. Though, stall users are generally keen on anticipating the proper set. Even still, Tyranitar is an unwelcome threat late in games when damage has been accumulated.

    Not to mention, you can use stall against stall as well. There are certain builds that are quite effective for this purpose. If you want me to give more specific examples than I gave, please share a stall combination you would like to be prepared for because all stall teams are not created equally!

    Q: What does modern BW OU look like?
    A: Excadrill didn't change a whole heck of a lot honestly. Bulky offensive teams are still very good and the omnipresent Spikes control combinations are still the cream of competition. Rain did get some additional tools with Excadrill being able to abuse opposing Sand, but it's not likely to win superiority over the long established Sand balance. The reduction in Sun can also narrow the focus of checks & counters for other play styles, though simply losing Venusaur does not discredit the viability of Sun in general, which always did and still does have a niche. It still has Volcarona, which was always the most dangerous threat of BW.
     
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    While there is no right answer here, it is hard to argue against ADV (gen 3) being the best version of Pokemon. It has all of the modern institutions (EVs, IVs, Natures) and possesses a high degree of balance that has progressively diminished through the inception of new gens.

    What do you mean about balance diminishing through the newer generations? Do you mean that the introduction of new moves and abilities has weakened the viability of many sets? Or that the Pokemon introduced in newer gens are just generally more powerful, filtering out weaker, but previously viable 'Mons?
     

    Kevin Garrett

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    What do you mean about balance diminishing through the newer generations? Do you mean that the introduction of new moves and abilities has weakened the viability of many sets? Or that the Pokemon introduced in newer gens are just generally more powerful, filtering out weaker, but previously viable 'Mons?
    It is all of the above, not to mention new items as well. The number of options has expanded so much since gen 3. We can even look at the transformation of it chronologically.

    Just to elaborate on my original statement, EVs and IVs existed pre-ADV, but with max EVs in all stats and IVs going only up to 15. Essentially, they are inconsequential in the team building process outside of Hidden Power in GSC. Enter the EV cap of 510, expanded IVs to 31, and abilities, which immediately prove to alter the metagame approach with things like Huge Power doubling attack, and items like Choice Band. Instead of needing to break down opponents gradually, you have access to something like Medicham that can essentially 1-2HKO the entire OU metagame with no setup, save max Def Suicune (3HKO), Spikes notwithstanding. Threats like that have their own drawbacks, as they require expert support and prediction. There aren't too many things that can overpower a team of six, though. Generally, the weaknesses are few and many of them can be played around through good battle decision making. That's the key distinction between older gens and new ones. What is most often the case in new gens, weaknesses are more likely to lead to inevitable losses.

    To tie it up briefly through DPP and BW, the physical-special move split was a significant factor in reduced balance. Instead of Salamence requiring a Flying move to have STAB on a DD set, it then gained access to all of its Dragon moves. Not to mention that the introduction of an attack like Draco Meteor, the boosted power of Outrage, the addition of Life Orb, and it leads to a metagame where an increasing number of Pokemon and combinations amount to more pressure than a single team can handle. BW had a massive power creep with the help of Dream World abilities. BW gets too much criticism for being completely decided by team matchup, but the sentiment is not misguided because few teams can even boast reliable results across all styles.
     
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