On Suicide

[JaredJEstes]

I believe a society that is afraid/or is not willing to discuss suicide is a society that is much more likely to participate in suicidal acts. In 2010, there were 38,364 suicides in the U.S. (American Foundation for Suicide Prevention) and about 800,00 worldwide (World Health Organization).

A culture who lives in fear of suicide and its consequences and who is not willing to discuss death seems at a higher risk of suicide to me.

In some Native American cultures of the PNW, people believed they were surrounded by the dead at all times and that there were people living in all objects animate and inanimate. They had a strong awareness of death. Maybe we can become more aware here?

 

[Tek]

I've held for some time now that fear of death is something that must be overcome. It's GOING to happen, that's part of the game. Why then should death be the stalking shadow rather than the constant companion?

 

[JaredJEstes]

Thanks for your words, I definitely agree!

 

[Star-Lord]

When it comes to suicide I'm not sure if it's education about suicide itself or rather the education on mental illness which will help ease the number of suicides that happen in the western world. There's statistics (which I'm unfortunately too lazy to look up) that I believe say 1/4 people suffer from a form of mental illness? It's still so stigmatized in our society that there are depressed people who don't have the confidence (perhaps from a lack of interpersonal skills or societal stigma) to share their problems with people. When people are unaware of the problems, how are they supposed to help people and then consequently prevent more suicides? Signs of depression are really obvious to those who are depressed, but for those who don't know what they're looking for it could just read-off as someone who doesn't take care of themself/won't clean up their room/whathaveyou. People can understand that some people don't take care of themselves, but how will they be able to understand that in the context of depression without proper education on it?

I've held for some time now that fear of death is something that must be overcome. It's GOING to happen, that's part of the game. Why then should death be the stalking shadow rather than the constant companion?

Yes and no, I think. I think we have to live our lives knowing that death has the possibility of rearing its ugly head when it wills itself to. That's just the kind of world that we live in. I think it's perfectly reasonable to be afraid of death though. It's the unknown, where many people believe that life just ends and you have no chance to do anything any more. People like being alive, so why shouldn't they be afraid of, well, not being alive?

 

[Phantom1]

I'll stick with an old line that a police officer told me back in the day. See when I was a police explorer I was our post's negotiator. One of the things we were taught was empathy and understanding the position the person is in. And the one line they told us to say was that suicide was a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

When you hear it like that it makes less sense, it makes it sound like a stupid idea, which it is. Suicide, no matter what the context may be, is a stupid idea. As corny as it sounds, there are always ways that things will get better. To me, suicide is a selfish choice, because no matter how you feel there are those who will be affected by your death, by the loss they experience. Even people who don't know you will be forced to deal with it in some way.

 

[Oryx]

The idea of suicide as selfish is supremely unhelpful to those thinking about suicide; often the impetus is that they already see themselves as terrible people and not worthy of the world so making them feel even worse about themselves by calling them selfish isn't going to be effective in helping them not want to do it. It also erases the effect of mental illness on suicide - someone who is actively considering suicide is not mentally well. If someone is going through treatment for cancer, no one would blame them for not being able to run a marathon; they are physically incapable of it due to their illness. But we're quick to blame people with mental illness for not being in a healthy mental state and making healthy mental choices.

An interesting counterpoint to the idea of talking more about suicide reducing the rate is the concept of suicide contagion. When a suicide is reported on the news by a celebrity, the suicide rates spike - there were 200 more suicides the month Marilyn Monroe died than the average. Teenagers are even more susceptible to this, causing one suicide in a school to quickly spread to multiple as suicide is normalized.

 

[Deleted member 211486]

Why then should death be the stalking shadow rather than the constant companion?

Because as human beings, we evolved to survive, to escape death and to cheat its ways using our brains. I know that death comes in its own time, but it saddens me when people (not necessarily you specifically) use this to defend their cause for suicide. It's a bad excuse for nihilism.

So while we shouldn't obsess ourselves with the fear of death, we shouldn't be completely welcoming of it either.

 

[Tek]

Because as human beings, we evolved to survive, to escape death and to cheat its ways using our brains. I know that death comes in its own time, but it saddens me when people (not necessarily you specifically) use this to defend their cause for suicide. It's a bad excuse for nihilism.

So while we shouldn't obsess ourselves with the fear of death, we shouldn't be completely welcoming of it either.

Learning to survive and delay death does not imply a fear or denial of death. In fact, when we attempt to ignore the inevitable, we allow it to catch us off-guard. Fear and denial of death, therefore, are counterproductive to survival.

I have had some experience with suicidal people, and have been in that well of despair myself. And many times, suicide is a way to make a statement. It's the most powerful message one can send, and that is largely because of the way we treat death as a villain to be defeated (or at least silenced). If we were not trying so desperately to sweep death under the rug, and pretend it isn't there, then the impact of suicide - while it would still be painful - would be much less extreme.

And as for nihilism, well that's a subject I have many thoughts on. But in this context, and in my specific case, a recognition and conscious acceptance that my time here is limited makes my time here all the more significant. It is the farthest thing from a reason to commit suicide.

 

[Deleted member 211486]

I have had some experience with suicidal people, and have been in that well of despair myself. And many times, suicide is a way to make a statement. It's the most powerful message one can send, and that is largely because of the way we treat death as a villain to be defeated (or at least silenced). If we were not trying so desperately to sweep death under the rug, and pretend it isn't there, then the impact of suicide - while it would still be painful - would be much less extreme.

I am not condemning suicidal people; all I am saying is that we should not be too welcoming of death, even in despair. What many people fail to realize is that life is a gift, and there are at least as many good things in it as there are bad things, and it would help tremendously if we focused on these good things rather than narcissisticly sulk in the option of death.

And as for nihilism, well that's a subject I have many thoughts on. But in this context, and in my specific case, a recognition and conscious acceptance that my time here is limited makes my time here all the more significant. It is the farthest thing from a reason to commit suicide.

Yes, but many people, especially in the youth today, are using nihilism as not a reason, but as an excuse to commit suicide.

 

[JaredJEstes]

The idea of suicide as selfish is supremely unhelpful to those thinking about suicide; often the impetus is that they already see themselves as terrible people and not worthy of the world so making them feel even worse about themselves by calling them selfish isn't going to be effective in helping them not want to do it. It also erases the effect of mental illness on suicide - someone who is actively considering suicide is not mentally well. If someone is going through treatment for cancer, no one would blame them for not being able to run a marathon; they are physically incapable of it due to their illness. But we're quick to blame people with mental illness for not being in a healthy mental state and making healthy mental choices.

I think this is a great point and something most important to talk about. Shaming people for their potential act of suicide is not going to help anyone. We have to work to have an open forum on its uses and why people are driven to it. Blame and guilt won't get us anywhere.

Also, I feel like a lot of people who shame people for suicide or their potential suicide do so out of bitterness and jealousy. As if "hey I man'd up and dealt with life, why do you get an easy out", it's the same sort of logic that puts down the benefits of welfare and a socialized health care system.. "i had to work for it so you should to".

Thanks for all of your contributions everyone, It is a most important topic. Peace & Love

 

[Phantom1]

I never said to shame someone. I said it was selfish, which it is. But that doesn't mean you go and be stupid enough to say that to a person threatening to kill themselves. Have some common sense.

Edit: Look I was suicidal when I was younger. I understand it, more than you know. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a selfish act. It's acting thinking of yourself rather than others. You're thinking you want this all to end, to stop, or that your don't deserve to continue, without thinking, knowing, or understanding what it will do to those who do care about you. For me, that was what got me out of it, thinking of my friends and family. Would I run around telling that to every suicidal person? No, of course not. Everyone is different.

But this-

The idea of suicide as selfish is supremely unhelpful to those thinking about suicide; often the impetus is that they already see themselves as terrible people and not worthy of the world so making them feel even worse about themselves by calling them selfish isn't going to be effective in helping them not want to do it.

Is bullroar.

The truth isn't meant to be easy or nice. You know the number of friends I know that quit their therapy for their depression because they didn't like it? Therapy isn't supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be nice. It's supposed to be the truth. You can show support while still giving them the truth.

Designating all suicidal people as mentally ill is as ignorant as saying all cancer patients are going to die. My point stands, and you can disagree with it as much as you like, but handling everyone like their fragile little flowers made of blown glass doesn't do them any services. I'm not saying be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and beat them down, but I am saying that sometimes it takes the truth, and the truth isn't pretty.

There are shades of grey. Not all cases are the same, and not all the answers are either. But when my friend killed himself, it hurt me and all of the other people that loved him. It left us with a hole in our hearts, and left us with a hole in our lives. It can't be fixed. He can't make it better. It's over, because he said so.

 

[Azonic]

The idea of suicide as selfish is supremely unhelpful to those thinking about suicide; often the impetus is that they already see themselves as terrible people and not worthy of the world so making them feel even worse about themselves by calling them selfish isn't going to be effective in helping them not want to do it. It also erases the effect of mental illness on suicide - someone who is actively considering suicide is not mentally well. If someone is going through treatment for cancer, no one would blame them for not being able to run a marathon; they are physically incapable of it due to their illness. But we're quick to blame people with mental illness for not being in a healthy mental state and making healthy mental choices.

??? no one is calling anyone selfish. if anything, the act of suicide itself is a selfish act. calling it a selfish act is an attempt to discourage the suicidal in performing a selfish act. no one calls the suicidal selfish. the "selfish" aspect is moreso to bring the focus to all the people that one may emotionally damage if one were to commit suicide and away from the individual's own despair with life.

 

[Oryx]

I never said to shame someone. I said it was selfish, which it is. But that doesn't mean you go and be stupid enough to say that to a person threatening to kill themselves. Have some common sense.

Saying something in public to people that may or may not be suicidal is no different than saying that thing to someone who is suicidal. It's likely, considering the statistics and how many people read this forum, that you just said that to a person considering killing themselves.

When you define suicide as inherently selfish because you're thinking about yourself, you ignore the connotations of selfish and the meanings that go beyond the word in our world; those can't lightly be put aside and ignored. In a world where no one had emotions and everyone used words strictly according to their dictionary definition with no nuance, the word selfish wouldn't be insulting. People would recognize that most things done in life are selfish, that if you eat every day and have a home you are inherently selfish because you're keeping these things instead of giving them to the people starving to death and that's not bad, just life. But we don't live in that world, unfortunately. We live in a world where calling an act selfish is the same as calling a person ugly - technically it's a neutral word that has a meaning and passes no judgment, but in reality it is much more.

Being suicidal is a symptom of mental illness. Your analogy doesn't actually work, unfortunately. The only time the concept of suicidal as mentally ill is thrown out the window is in the case of euthanasia due to terminal illness. The vast, vast majority of the time, suicide is the result of mental illness, when without the illness the victim would be able to see the irrationality of killing oneself in a world with some friends, some family, and a life beyond whatever is driving them to suicide.

I'm not sure how your friends leaving therapy is relevant, honestly. I do know that there are good therapists and bad therapists, and those that are open to moving past their illness are challenged by therapists and respond positively. However, therapists undergo years of training to find how to push those that need it to be able to heal themselves. We do not, and that is not our role in a person's life. In addition, I have heard horror stories, such as a transgender friend of mine that went to a therapist to get her "mental proof" that she was transgender and was subjected to a series of questions about which gender stereotypes she identifies more with to determine if she was really a woman. This is getting a bit off topic because I'm not sure how to respond due to my inability to understand the connection, so feel free to fill me in and I'll come back to it.

It's a common misconception to create the binary of how to treat people, either telling them that their actions are selfish or "handling everyone like their fragile little flowers made of blown glass." In fact, that's not true at all. There is a spectrum of how you can treat people, from insulting them to being their yes-men. I am not advocating being a yes-man to suicidal people, as you seem to be implying; I am advocating sympathy instead of insults, and an acknowledgment from those trying to help that in most cases this is not coming from a place of rationality, so insulting the person by telling them how selfish their act is in your eyes is not going to make them make a rational decision to be less selfish and live in a world that they're so hurt by.

I empathize with your experience of suicide; it has also touched my life. I'm going to repeat what I said right up at the top; you said that you would never tell a suicidal person that they were being selfish, but you clearly said this in a public forum where anyone can read, and considering how many people think about committing suicide, there's a good chance someone who is will read it. It's unwise to ignore the social ramifications of your attitude towards suicide; even if you don't say it directly to the people as they tell you, telling other people spreads that attitude, and your actions can't hide that you think so negatively of that person and their decision. And even if your actions could hide it because you've spent years at acting school or some such reason, you are actively trying to spread this belief to other people by arguing about it online, people that don't have your kind of self-masking and those that believe that if you think something you should say it out of honesty. Ignoring the social ramifications of calling suicide selfish publicly is reckless and disregards how society works. It's like making sterotypical racist jokes and thinking it's fine because there's no one around hurt by it; it still has consequences beyond someone being hurt that exact moment. And that analogy is imperfect in itself because we're not in a closed room, you're screaming to thousands of people that suicide is selfish while claiming you would never tell someone thinking about committing suicide that.

 

[Dakotah]

I'll stick with an old line that a police officer told me back in the day. See when I was a police explorer I was our post's negotiator. One of the things we were taught was empathy and understanding the position the person is in. And the one line they told us to say was that suicide was a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

When you hear it like that it makes less sense, it makes it sound like a stupid idea, which it is. Suicide, no matter what the context may be, is a stupid idea. As corny as it sounds, there are always ways that things will get better. To me, suicide is a selfish choice, because no matter how you feel there are those who will be affected by your death, by the loss they experience. Even people who don't know you will be forced to deal with it in some way.

Would you say the same holds true for a terminally ill patient, in perpetual pain due to his/her illness and no amount of medication can relieve the suffering the patient experiences? The patient already knows the disease afflicted them is going to take their life and that any efforts to prolong their lives would also prolong the pain and suffering they will have to endure. So as a way to end it all they reject further efforts to treat their illness. This could be considered a form of suicide. But some may also wish to take it further and want to be given the chance to end it with the aid of a doctor. (aka assisted suicide.)

 

[JaredJEstes]

I never said to shame someone. I said it was selfish, which it is. But that doesn't mean you go and be stupid enough to say that to a person threatening to kill themselves. Have some common sense.

Edit: Look I was suicidal when I was younger. I understand it, more than you know. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a selfish act. It's acting thinking of yourself rather than others. You're thinking you want this all to end, to stop, or that your don't deserve to continue, without thinking, knowing, or understanding what it will do to those who do care about you. For me, that was what got me out of it, thinking of my friends and family. Would I run around telling that to every suicidal person? No, of course not. Everyone is different.

But this-



Is bullroar.

The truth isn't meant to be easy or nice. You know the number of friends I know that quit their therapy for their depression because they didn't like it? Therapy isn't supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be nice. It's supposed to be the truth. You can show support while still giving them the truth.

Designating all suicidal people as mentally ill is as ignorant as saying all cancer patients are going to die. My point stands, and you can disagree with it as much as you like, but handling everyone like their fragile little flowers made of blown glass doesn't do them any services. I'm not saying be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and beat them down, but I am saying that sometimes it takes the truth, and the truth isn't pretty.

There are shades of grey. Not all cases are the same, and not all the answers are either. But when my friend killed himself, it hurt me and all of the other people that loved him. It left us with a hole in our hearts, and left us with a hole in our lives. It can't be fixed. He can't make it better. It's over, because he said so.

Your blunt 'truth' and bull roar may sound right to you but if your in the actual business of treating suicidal people it's not realistic. People have emotions and nonsense like 'the truth hurts' perpetuates a system that drives people to suicide.

 

[Sage Ebock]

I believe a society that is afraid/or is not willing to discuss suicide is a society that is much more likely to participate in suicidal acts. In 2010, there were 38,364 suicides in the U.S. (American Foundation for Suicide Prevention) and about 800,00 worldwide (World Health Organization).

A culture who lives in fear of suicide and its consequences and who is not willing to discuss death seems at a higher risk of suicide to me.

In some Native American cultures of the PNW, people believed they were surrounded by the dead at all times and that there were people living in all objects animate and inanimate. They had a strong awareness of death. Maybe we can become more aware here?

I believe it is possible that suicide is a natural phenomenon.
First are some important concepts to consider.
Necrosis, Apoptosis, Microcosm, Macrocosm, cell body, and multicellular.
Necrosis is cell death related to external forces, Apoptosis is programmed (internal force) cell death.


If one is to consider that "things" can be seen in replicating systems on small and large scales (micro and macro) then it becomes easy to see a cell body as a representation of individuality/consciousness. However, the body functions as a holistic system and attempting to isolate parts, even in discussion, seems rather crass.

Long story short, risks associated with ignorance seem irrelevant.

We humans function as a super organism (multicellular) even if not "conscious" of such a function.

From a different perspective, we are simply parts of Earths system. Every single human ever.

Is it possible that suicide allows for a shift in the flow of a genetic line?
Is it possible that death and change allow for "new" things to spring forth?

That much is beyond my singular perspective, but how about this


If one believes that death is change, and that energy (matter) cannot be created or destroyed, is it not possible that those who die never truly leave? I mean, its obvious that something has changed, but who can say with 100% clarity how much? or in which ways?

I agree with you on this tho, being more aware of the nature of reality, of life and death, does seem to help minimize suicide attempts. Also on that note, I am decently sure that a more conscious populace can only help our species and our planet.

 

[JaredJEstes]

I believe it is possible that suicide is a natural phenomenon.
First are some important concepts to consider.
Necrosis, Apoptosis, Microcosm, Macrocosm, cell body, and multicellular.
Necrosis is cell death related to external forces, Apoptosis is programmed (internal force) cell death.


If one is to consider that "things" can be seen in replicating systems on small and large scales (micro and macro) then it becomes easy to see a cell body as a representation of individuality/consciousness. However, the body functions as a holistic system and attempting to isolate parts, even in discussion, seems rather crass.

Long story short, risks associated with ignorance seem irrelevant.

We humans function as a super organism (multicellular) even if not "conscious" of such a function.

From a different perspective, we are simply parts of Earths system. Every single human ever.

Is it possible that suicide allows for a shift in the flow of a genetic line?
Is it possible that death and change allow for "new" things to spring forth?

That much is beyond my singular perspective, but how about this


If one believes that death is change, and that energy (matter) cannot be created or destroyed, is it not possible that those who die never truly leave? I mean, its obvious that something has changed, but who can say with 100% clarity how much? or in which ways?

I agree with you on this tho, being more aware of the nature of reality, of life and death, does seem to help minimize suicide attempts. Also on that note, I am decently sure that a more conscious populace can only help our species and our planet.

Thanks for your contribution lots of great ideas in here.

I haven't attempted to kill myself yet but I have been thinking of suicide a lot. However I can't seem to grab a knife and stab myself in the heart or take medicine and silently die o jump off a cliff. I don't like the idea of feeling pain. I like pleasurable things. Things that I can enjoy. Things that are exciting. I wish life was a chain reaction of these last three like it once was. But I seem to suffer because I can't continue to live like that. There are many things in the way. Including social problems. Things that are not necessarly mine but I have to adapt so people will be more likely to recognize me. You lose bit by bit like that and at the end leaving what is truly important to tend to social needs is just as bad as not adapting them at all. People are there but you can't really interact with them the way you want to. It's like they are there and they are not. I can't do many things that I would love to be doing because I don't have support. People will bring me down because I'm uncommon in what is apparently negative to most. But to me it would be the most positive thing in the whole wide world and that positive reaction if left untouched or better yet supported would have been the portal to many other positive life experiences. I just know it. Where i'm going with this is that people don't think about suicide as killing themselves, they are thinking about escaping excesive suffering that they probably think will continue indefinetly. Since they cannot realise their own purpose what they want to do or how they want to feel they just think that life is as dull as not living. So they go for it. In one screen you have continous suffering and in the other you don't have that. This is more or less the logic of suicidal people.

Thanks for sharing this Tao. I appreciate you taking the time. There is a lot of suffering in the world and it seems like it will never end. A good start is acknowledging that a root cause of our suffering is the oppression we face daily. What are some the things you enjoy, some of the pleasurable three you mentioned?

 

[Kawaii Shoujo Duskull]

Constantly thinking suicidal people have some sort of mental illness is completely unrealistic. Calling suicidal people or the act of suicide selfish is also kind of unrealistic.


Suicide is considered and/or enacted for reasons. Somebody might want to kill themselves because they feel too guilty for something they did, small or large, and that thing effected somebody they knew or were close too(or maybe even somebody else). Or perhaps they didn't do something and they regret that, and that thing might have helped somebody or made things better. Maybe somebody is being bullied and can't stand it--endurance only carries people so far before they break, and for some people, they'd rather die instead of changing in a way that'd hurt others. Maybe somebody feels lonely beyond anything, possibly because they lost a person they held closer to their heart than anybody and/or anything else in the whole world, and they can't stand living without what once made them complete. Maybe somebody is in too much pain for them to withstand, and they just want to end it. Maybe they know they're going to die for sure--not being paranoid, but actually /know/ its going to happen and its going to happen very soon--and they just want to get it over without having to deal with the anticipatory anxiety. Or maybe a person is tired of watching the world go into complete chaos (which it obviously is) and just wants to get out before it consumes them or just is sick of it and decides to 'leave'; in this case depression doesn't even need to be involved. Maybe they feel that they're nothing but a pest, a pain, a distraction to people(maybe they are), and just want to stop bothering others. Or maybe they've just got the stereotypical form of depression that people generally might associate with suicide(sad all the time, hates everyone and everything, "leave me be", cuts all the time, etc blahblahblah). Whatever.
Have empathy. Put yourself in /their/ shoes rather than staying in your head. Open your mind and think of how you'd act--how you'd really truly act in that situation and not just how you'd like to act in that situation.
Reasoning with a person isn't always enough. You can't always convince a person that suicide isn't a good idea--in certain circumstances it might as well be a good idea.
Depression and suicidal thoughts/desires can't be pinned on mental illness all the time. It could be any of the things listed above, or more. And pinning all of those on mental illness is, again, just unrealistic.


I'm speaking from both personal experience with wanting suicide and from experience with people close to me wanting and even trying to commit suicide. Suicide does affect the people around you(its super effective!), but again that knolige isn't always a good enough reason for somebody to stop trying or wanting it.




Educating people on suicide and its signs could help prevent it when possible. However, there will always be a suicide somewhere, as sad as it is to say so.


We should understand that death exists everywhere. We don't have to try to erase fear though, just understand death exists. This could possibly help prevent suicide, but I'm not 100% sure how or in what ways.


Welp, I tried to say my feelings on the matter. lol Sorry if it isn't much of a contribution.

 

[dogtree]

people should have the right to die via assist suicide ( watch it on Netflix ) anytime they
want even if they are not sick. World has too much people already.

 

[Tek]

people should have the right to die via assist suicide ( watch it on Netflix ) anytime they
want even if they are not sick. World has too much people already.

I'm probably going to catch flak for this but I... actually agree. If you're ready to check out, then... well... that's your prerogative.