'Pokémon: Generic' Is the anime a waste?

AJUST

/Kusagaki. The Grass Kid./
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    Let me start by saying that i'm a fan of Pokemon, and i'm not trying to make any enemies by posting this thread... but, i think the Pokemon anime is a total waste of a good idea. Every time i've seen a Pokemon -movie- I thought: 'damn, why can't the anime have a plot too?'

    Will the anime just run on forever flat the way it always has?
    My hope is they end the infomercial, and create a new true anime that can really utilise the Pokemon universe.
     
    Well, you are entitle to your opinion. I like pokemon the way it is. It keeps me entertained, besides most of the episodes have plots.
     
    yea id have to agree with extreme as much as i dont like the hoenn (shinoh is good thus far) i dont think it should end. every episode has a plot and a moral message behind it. i think the show has also worked on battles alot. the battles in the show are amazing compared to the first, second , third, fourth and fifth seasons battles. the anime next to the games is the second biggest market share of the pokemon name.
     
    AJUST said:
    'damn, why can't the anime have a plot too?'
    Click to expand...

    Because you don't pay to see the show. XD (Well, okay, you could be paying for cable/satellite/whatever, but you don't do it just to watch Pokemon every day.) Seriously, the reason why any movie is a lot more exciting than the show itself is because the writers are trying to make something that would appeal to an audience enough that they would go out of their way to spend money in order to see it. (This is not considering the times that the movies are shown on television, which is really once in several full moons anyway.)

    I do agree with you, though, that the anime has become flat, although I believe it hasn't always been so. The first season had some really nice ideas for episodes, like Ash crossdressing to get into a gym, a maiden ghost attempting to lure Brock and James to their dooms, and the entire group trying to get off a sunken ship. However, possibly by the end of the first season (and definitely by the time Johto came around), the anime fell into a pattern of cookie-cutter plots, where Ash and company help Pokemon A/Trainer A to (fill in goal here), only to be interrupted by Team Rocket, who wish to steal Pokemon A for (insert oddball reason here) or Pikachu for (insert another oddball reason here) using (insert giant machine here). I really don't think things will change, as after a couple hundred episodes, you can only come up with so much for a storyline like Pokemon's. (You can get away with a lot more if the storyline was nonlinear, like most Western cartoons tend to be with one episode being fairly self-contained and not part of some sort of overall story arc. Not to mention even Pokemon isn't quite as oddball as many Western cartoons.)
     
    I just expect more from Pokemon, since it's produced in japan, the home to countless amazing anime shows. Naruto is a good example.
    Sure, every -episode- has a plot, of course it would, but the show lacks direction. The lack of character development is just bizarre. (IMO, lol)
    I must admit Pokemon Diamond (the game) showed vast improvement in terms of storyline compared to earlier games.
     
    Complete and total word to the lack of characterization point. I admit I don't usually go for a mega-series like One Piece, Naruto, or Pokemon, so I really don't know how shows like the former keep the plot up better than the latter. What I do know that it's insane that after several hundred episodes, while most characters would get more developed as the series goes along, Ash and friends somehow got less developed. O_o I mean, back when Brock was introduced (and when the anime still kinda resembled anything else out of Japan), for example, he was this deep, mature character, but now he's been reduced to a running gag factory. I was hoping just a bit that they would, after about half the first season, get to developing the characters more, but they just stopped trying somewhere along the line, I think.
     
    Yeah, that's pretty much true. However, the rare team pokemon will occasionally get developed (Charizard, Grovyle, Combusken... I don't really know who else, lol)
     
    AJUST said:
    Let me start by saying that i'm a fan of Pokemon, and i'm not trying to make any enemies by posting this thread... but, i think the Pokemon anime is a total waste of a good idea. Every time i've seen a Pokemon -movie- I thought: 'damn, why can't the anime have a plot too?'

    Will the anime just run on forever flat the way it always has?
    My hope is they end the infomercial, and create a new true anime that can really utilise the Pokemon universe.
    Click to expand...

    I'll try to make this as brief as possible so I don't sound like I'm ranting. But I'll say right now, I agree with you.

    What's really bad is the movies DO pull that kind of thing on the audience too. When you think you've got a true villain, they either turn good or vanish without a trace.

    Now, I don't really think the infomercial thing (and I know what you mean by that) is the Problem. Transformers was like that even from the beginning in the 80s and it turned out to be one of the greatest cartoon series' of all time.

    That said, what IS the problem is the clearly uninspired, stereotyped plot that's been the running theme for the whole series since the beginning. And I'm talking about Ash and the gang going to each Region, Ash getting 8 Badges, and him entering the League and losing, then, moving on to the next Region. It was cute at first, but come on! What's creative about using the same exact plotline FOUR TIMES IN A ROW?!

    I can really see where you're coming from. And I have a feeling alot more of the fanbase feels the way you do than one might think.

    I mean, people here will defend the plot of the Anime up and down, but post a Fic using that storyline, and watch out! Seriously, take a look over in the Fic sections here and at Serebii and see for yourself. You'll get it locked faster than you can say 'Blue Streak'. If people claim to be so 'fine' with the plot, then why does this happen? The truth is, deep down, they really do hate the plot. They won't always admit it, but it's true.

    If you ask me, Pokemon should get off it's recurring League plot and focus on something more interesting and, dare I say it, SERIOUS. Perhaps a faction wants to turn every Pokemon in the world into Shadow Pokemon. Perhaps there's a real villain out there that puts the world in a danger that can't possibly be ignored. Maybe Paul can do that, I don't know. Just something. Something interesting. Because this over-used League plot is just boring.
     
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    Collecting things doesn't bother me, providing you have enough distractions, like the villainous teams. The series has great villains, but they don't know what to do with them (like SBaby says). Whereas, you'll see J/J/M til the end of time.

    Although, D/P has gotten so western, it's scary. Two Elite appearances, a sneak appearance by Galactic, not too shabby continuity, except for Haruka, it's nice.

    I think the fans' expectations have gotten so low, they're shocked by all this change. Me, my expectations were already low, so I rode the wave and still am several years later.

    I wish the writers bothered to read Special. At least, Special tries with their villains, and they represent an actual threat. Amazing, no?
     
    The anime is meant to be an advertisement for the games, that's it. Not to be rude or anything, but if you're one of those people hoping for the Pokemon anime be the most amazing thing ever, I suggest you get over yourself and stop taking it seriously. :\

    It will most likely keep going the way it is. Though imo, it has improved drastically since the first season. We have actual female protagonists from the games traveling with Ash as co-stars of the show now (Contests became a huge part of the show because of this), and so far in DP, it seems like the writers are sticking closer to the games more than ever. Gym leaders, Elite 4 members, and tag-up characters are also appearing a heck of a lot more/are actually appearing, and are receiving a lot of spotlight.

    Though there may be a lot of things I don't like about the anime myself, I'm not complaining, because of how much it has improved. So yeah - it is not a waste, but it is also a children's show that is meant for advertisement, so I can't expect it to be the best thing ever. That's my opinion.
     
    Chelc said:
    The anime is meant to be an advertisement for the games, that's it. Not to be rude or anything, but if you're one of those people hoping for the Pokemon anime be the most amazing thing ever, I suggest you get over yourself and stop taking it seriously. :\
    Click to expand...

    Personally, I'm not hoping for Pokemon to be one of the best anime series ever. I know it won't be. I'm just hoping that it won't suck as much as it does with fairly cookie-cutter plots, overuse of running gags, lack of dimension to any character that's been on the cast for ten years (I'm just wondering how they've managed to pull this one off.), and abuse of CG to make things look pretty. =/

    But then again, I'm also a purist who's used to 90's animation and has seen better storylines out of something as cheesy and straightforward as the first season of Sailormoon, so...
     
    Chelc said:
    The anime is meant to be an advertisement for the games, that's it. Not to be rude or anything, but if you're one of those people hoping for the Pokemon anime be the most amazing thing ever, I suggest you get over yourself and stop taking it seriously. :\
    Click to expand...

    Well, Transformers was an advertisement for the toys, and the movie (and I mean the animated one from the 80s) turned out to be absolutely amazing for its time. The new Transformers movie was an advertisement for modern vehicles, and it was STILL good. So whether a show is an ad or not is a moot point.

    Although what's really a shame in Pokemon's case is the fact that the storyline of the games pull the exact same thing as the Anime. An over-used storyline with a boring plot. All I'm saying is that the potential is there. Nintendo or Game Freak, or whatever company owns Pokemon this month, just refuses to see it. The problem with that is many of the fans are finally starting to realize it. Example: This Topic.

    Let's put another way. Onegai My Melody has a more interesting (if strange) storyline than Pokemon. Now THAT is sad.
     
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    I do agree with you, though, that the anime has become flat, although I believe it hasn't always been so. The first season had some really nice ideas for episodes, like Ash crossdressing to get into a gym, a maiden ghost attempting to lure Brock and James to their dooms, and the entire group trying to get off a sunken ship.
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    There we go once again, Kanto Elitism in action

    It seems so many people here are whining about how they miss season 1 because it had more "quality". But you know, the tenth season is becoming almost better than season one.
    The writers are much smarter than they were in a very long time. Ash has Shinji who's the kind of trainer we've needed for a while.
    Spoiler:

    Now that I've written about it, I've come to realize that Pocketmonsters Diamond and Pearl is better than Pokemon season 1
    It's all nostalgia, guys
    (and now I realize why I dont come around here too much)
     
    I wish the writers bothered to read Special. At least, Special tries with their villains, and they represent an actual threat. Amazing, no?
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    I agree with you 100%. Special has such a great plot, and they didn't even focus on badge collecting in the GSC portion.
     
    orange said:
    I agree with you 100%. Special has such a great plot, and they didn't even focus on badge collecting in the GSC portion.
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    Well, I don't like the D/P arc so far. However, Special has done the rest with aplomb.

    That's a good point about the badges, as I forgot. To be fair, the first arc, the badges were afterthought, anyway, until the final battles with the Rockets in Saffron.

    Then, they were useful. Imagine that. Heh.
     
    Crystal Clair said:
    It seems so many people here are whining about how they miss season 1 because it had more "quality". But you know, the tenth season is becoming almost better than season one.
    Click to expand...

    I've watched the tenth season so far for reasons even I don't know, and I still stand by my opinion that it's just not as great as it had been. I mean, okay, wow. James gives away a Pokemon. Paul's starter turns out to be not what everyone else thought it was. (That's actually happened before. *motions to Gary*) Tag battles. (I'd like to point out the fact that they happened in the Hoenn arc as well. In fact, one episode in which Ash and Dawn battle a pair of twins but end up accidentally attacking each other harks back to the time Ash did the same thing with May.) It's still not the same sort of excitement that's the writers got away with in the first season in my opinion. Ash still has yet to do something as extreme as crossdressing to get into a Gym again. Brock still has yet to do something as serious as walk off to his doom because of a ghost. The Pokemon of the main characters haven't gone on an adventure by themselves (i.e. "Island of the Giant Pokemon") for some time now. The tenth season just seems to lack something for me -- those elements of those silly plotlines that consumed entire episodes and haven't been replicated in the past. Not to mention the feel of the episode is just killed by the running gags and the same-old formula of Team Rocket in a mecha.

    Likewise, sure, Gym Battles might've been given out here and there (although the first was after a fairly close battle in which Pikachu might've used dirty tactics to gain the upper hand -- and even then, it was only the first two and Celadon's, when Ash was still a complete idiot and just happened to do something incredible for the Gym to earn it by merit of character), but I'm still not sure what you mean by "big battles." There were a few, such as the one against A.J., although I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant.

    In any case, is there any particular reason why you wanted to label my opinions an act of elitism, or is it that difficult to come up with an argument without insulting your opposition? =/ Some people really don't believe that the tenth season (or the ninth/eighth/seventh/whatever season people are saying is making the anime get better than it had been in the third/fourth/whatever season) for fairly good reasons, and just because I bother to present my arguments with some form of intelligence doesn't necessarily make me elitist. (I admit to being an elitist at times, but for entirely different reasons, not for my opinion about a cartoon show.) I may be biased, however, but that's certainly not the same thing. And even then, it's not really much grounds to say that my opinion is inferior when my opinion as stated above was meant to be in agreement with the first post, rather than as an attempt to insult the opposing view.

    In other words, next time, please think about the word "elitist" carefully before you use it. You probably meant "biased" here or even "purist," most likely, unless you'd like to take everyone who can write intelligently to be an elitist.

    On a lighter note, I'd like to say it'd be interesting to see what the anime writers would do with a Special-like villain. I'd definitely sit down to watch that sort of thing, at least.
     
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    Charaxes said:
    Well, I don't like the D/P arc so far. However, Special has done the rest with aplomb.

    That's a good point about the badges, as I forgot. To be fair, the first arc, the badges were afterthought, anyway, until the final battles with the Rockets in Saffron.

    Then, they were useful. Imagine that. Heh.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, it was great how they didn't constantly remind us that Red needed his next badge. Red just had his few moments of pride, and then scurried off into the actual plot. Even in the RSE arc, Sapphire collecting badges was at least interesting, because of the bet with Ruby as motivation.
     
    Jax Malcolm said:
    On a lighter note, I'd like to say it'd be interesting to see what the anime writers would do with a Special-like villain. I'd definitely sit down to watch that sort of thing, at least.
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    Here's a thought.

    A real villain voiced by Jim Cummings.

    And I don't mean those one-time villains you see that turn good after an hour or vanish without a trace. I mean a villain that forces the story to change its focus.
     
    I want to cut off wank before it escalates with this "elitism" wording. I think there is a valid point with the purists, actually. It was good, then Johto came and ruined it, now we're crawling out of the pit. All this started with AG and, unfortunately, comparisons with the original. Sometimes, that doesn't work. Something Dogasu said with the first Solrock episode.

    A lot of the people who believe that Kanto was the best part of the series and that Houen is crap point out that a lot of the episodes in Houen are merely pale imitations of classic Kanto episodes. And yeah, there are some parallels between this episode and the old Snorlax episode, "Wake Up, Snorlax." But really, they're only "the same episode" in the broadest sense. Sure, both episodes deal with drought, but the similarities end there. The Snorlax episode dealt more with waking up a pokemon who was blocking the water flow into a village, while this one dealt with the Rocket-Dan stealing water while another pokemon was blamed for it instead. In my mind, the comparison is really unfair.

    https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/comparisons/houen/ep063.html

    Meanwhile, you're dealing with "how much game canon are the writers going to bother to give us," the chance of actual villains like Galactic, Homura/Izumi (they should be back) and hoping for a non-cookie cutter plot, it's a fine line to tread. Is the anime perfect? Lord, no. If it was better, it would be nice. However, there is something that compels us to watch/review week-after-week, or return so many years later, to see how it evolved.

    Plus, the series hardly has any breaks, as part of the Japanese TV setup, as I recall. If they had an actual break/hiatus like American TV shows do, then maybe they'd have a conference, sit and plan properly. Maybe they'll even play the games, and get, say, Wallace in there, since he's been snubbed so.

    I think half the problem is that we don't always have international press releases, so we don't always know what the writers are thinking. Plus, the dub doesn't help, with the exception of the movies, for they don't list who writes what episode. They are credited, yet nothing specific. We have Bulbapedia, but what about those who don't have access, what reference can they draw from but themselves?

    Burnout is part of the writing process, which is what Johto was, so why not acknowledge that and move on? I like where the conversation is going, so let's keep that way. Heh.
     
    I'll be honest when I say I've only seen a few of the latest season's episodes and they weren't too bad. Especially not as bad as the dribble that was hoenn. I think the point people are trying to make is that pokemon lost its feel after a few seasons. If you want an example, Imy favourite episiode is "Ash Catches a Pokemon". It is entertaining and Ash acted like a real trainer, trying to actually catch pokemon. I can't really talk about the Sinnoh season but the in Hoenn season, every episode was basically the same:
    1. A pokemon not seen before is seen and ash pokedexes it.
    2. Team Rocket steals it and pikachu, they fail.
    3. Ash helps the pokemon [and it's trainer sometimes] overcome a problem.
    4. Everyone says goodbye and the credits roll.

    One thing that was great about the first season though was the Ash-Misty-Brock trio. Brock acted like an adult and was essentially the leader of the group, Misty made fun of Ash and Ash was, simply, a noob. It was entertaining and it was light and often didn't completely make sense [eg. the trio never saw through the rocket's costumes] but that was partly why it was good. I also enjoyed that team rocket still had a bit of credibility, although that wore off after a while once the team got to know them.
     
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