Same-Sex Marriage

[jon328]

did you post this just to get people mad? you must not have anything better to do than to start arguments.

 

[Akio123]

Artificial insemination doesn't really apply to gay men though. Then I tried to apply that to two woman and .. um.. okay so I have no idea whether that's considered a homosexual couple "having" children since technically the male is not one of the couple.

I... I think I've reached the end of my knowledge on this subject >>; Lol

You know what a surrogate mother is? I mean many women get the egg implanted within their bodies for a same-sex couple (male).

Not to mention donations to a sperm bank and other options...

 

[Porygon-Z]

I am shocked and appalled by the amount of homophobic rubbish I'm seeing on this thread.

I honestly thought the world was moving on from silly prejudices.

Anyway, back on the topic, if your a straight person (and I can't stress this enough) how on earth does gay marriage effect you?

It just doesn't. If you don't like the idea of marrying someone of the same sex then don't marry someone of the same sex.

As for those that do, just leave us alone and mind your own damn business!

In other words:

If you are straight this issue has no effect on your life, so you have no business talking about it.

Don't poke your nose where it ain't wanted and try concentrating on your own problems instead of making life hard for everyone else with your biggotry!

It says in the bible that man and man or woman and woman shouldn't be in the same relationship (together), so it shouldn't be, I oppose it more than communism. It is a sin, always will be.

You sir clearly have no idea what God is about. God is love.

If there is one thing we can be sure that God does not tolerate, it's hatred itself, which you seem to be full of.

God is love. So why would God be scornful towards a loving relationship?

He wouldn't.

News flash: God doesn't descriminate against people for how they were born.

Also I would like to say once more, the person who started this thread was clearly asking for trouble, and has posted before on threads to do with Gay issues...

This person has a definite fixation with homosexuality.

Why? Why the hell do you care FreakyLocz14? What is your fixation with us gays?

 

[Gymnotide]

Wait, let me get this right. If you get married once, have a kid, get a divorce, you can't marry again and still be in possession of that child since it's not technically "yours" because of its half-blood? Because, that's what this thread is essentially saying in a few places.

Anyway, here's my argument in bullet point format, since I've already spent too much time on writing it out in nice paragraphs for people to read:

• Marriage is overrated. It is dated and over-ceremonialized. It bears little to no significance. If two people are together and genuinely love each other, choosing to skip marriage has no effect on the relationship, outside relations, and the rest of the world. What does being married get you? Nothing much, except a different last name if you're a female (which still leads to issues regarding gender equality), and reinforcing gender roles. Solution: Leave marriage to the religious folk. They see it as a religious rite of passage and they're damn near fanatical about it (now, I use "they" here in a vernacular sense, in that I refer to a great portion of the religious population; I understand that there are people in the world who aren't this way, but it can't be denied that religious profiling still plays a large role in society). There's no point in getting oneself worked up over such an unnecessarily sensitized topic.
• Religious homosexuals should reconsider. If your religion doesn't acknowledge you, then maybe you should reconsider. I understand the gravitas of all this "hope" and "glory of God" nonsense, but you can still believe in whatever you want without being institutionalized.
• "Sacred" is subjective. I could worship trees and say that making paper is a sacrilege to my gods, and therefore have reason to discriminate against any one who uses paper. Of course, in doing so, I become an anathema. The only reason why Christianity / other religions don't experience this is because of how regrettably mainstream it is. Just understand, though, that not everyone completely understands why you worship (mainly because there isn't really a reason, unless you count self-denial).
• Don't ask, don't tell. Really, what does having two people of the same gender get married do to you in the long run?
• The "children" argument is moot. Having children is completely unrelated to marriage. Being married doesn't make a person any better a parent, nor does it alter the state of the children in question. Two unmarried people can raise a child just fine if they want to -- in the end, all that matters is the will of the people.
• Yes, homosexuals can have children. Adoption and surrogate mothers are options. If you argue that the children don't actually belong to them, then what about heterosexuals who follow the same path?

 

[Timbjerr]

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What are you looking at? I don't see very much gay bashing going on in this thread. It looks to me like you're the one fishing for flames here. :P

You claimed to be a Gay Christian in one of your earlier posts, and you plan on getting married in the church? Good luck with that.

This doesn't reflect on my personal views, but I thought it might be interesting to mention. I knew a guy in high school. Quite gay and a very strong Christian. whenever a gay marriage debate popped up, he would be on side of opposition. As a gay Christian, he viewed it as a sin to go celebrating his homosexuality and all that. He even vowed that he would be a virgin for life if that's what it took to get to Heaven. Obviously, even in your particularly awkward demographic, opinions are scattered.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

But what you have to ask yourself is... if religion were out of the question (abolished, or never existing), would this even be a recognized debate? I doubt it.



I think it's partially a civil rights issue. There's a lot more founded in arguing for gay marriage based on civil rights than arguing against gay marriage based on the Bible. I think I understand where you're coming from, though. You're saying that you can not form a foundation for pro-gay marriage based on civil rights, right? Well, perhaps... but where's the idea that you can't base allowing someone to take part in a legal act, which marriage essentially is when boiled down to the bone, (or judging someone in general) based on ancient medieval religious writings? No one seems to bring that argument up. haha

(Because, like I said, this is a religious debate... since one side is totally founded on religion and the Bible, you can not debate this without bringing religion into it somehow... and that's why I doubt we will ever truly win. :P)

You can't avoid bringing up religion in a discussion of marriage. Like I said, before, the institution of marriage is deeply rooted in religion. This is a fact that we cannot change unless we find away to go back in time.

 

[Porygon-Z]

What are you looking at? I don't see very much gay bashing going on in this thread. It looks to me like you're the one fishing for flames here. :P

You claimed to be a Gay Christian in one of your earlier posts, and you plan on getting married in the church? Good luck with that.

This doesn't reflect on my personal views, but I thought it might be interesting to mention. I knew a guy in high school. Quite gay and a very strong Christian. whenever a gay marriage debate popped up, he would be on side of opposition. As a gay Christian, he viewed it as a sin to go celebrating his homosexuality and all that. He even vowed that he would be a virgin for life if that's what it took to get to Heaven. Obviously, even in your particularly awkward demographic, opinions are scattered.

Trust me, a flame fight is the last thing I want. What I would like is to see this thread locked and this discussion to end. But the most valid point I raised you chose to ignore. Why do straight people care about gay marriage?

The reason I was calling out the gay-bashers was because certain posters like the one I quoted earlier were straying off the topic and simply attacking homosexuality in general.

In addition I never expressed in any way whether or not I intended to marry in the future, only that it's not fair that gays shouldn't be allowed that. The Church of England doesn't condemn homosexuality. Although gay marriage isn't authorised yet as a ceremony, there is such a thing as a civil union with a blessing, which clearly shows a sound preparation for gay marriage when the time comes for reform.

Clearly you just read into what I was saying what you wanted to read. Besides my belief in God is my own, I don't need to be a fundamentalist to follow the principles of Jesus and the Gospel. Nor am I prepared to condemn myself to a life of loneliness simply because I've been spoonfed religious dogma that makes little sense, like your friend decided to do.

My point is this, why should the rules be different just because somebody is born different. God loves us all equally, so why should gays receive anything less than straights?

Besides the main point of what I was saying is, why do straight people even care if gays want to marry or not if it has no effect on them, and you've failed to answer that question. Nobody has answered this question yet at all.

P.S. quoting my reply as

"Wall of text

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Just shows you can't be bothered to provide valid counter arguments, and reflects the level of maturity you're bringing to the discussion. It's also rude.

 

[Esper]

The obvious solution to this problem is for governments to stop recognizing marriages of any kind and to recognize only civil unions in their place. Anybody can get a civil union. If you also want a marriage on top of that then that's your choice and you can go to whatever religious institution will have you. Marriage is all personal anyway, right? The government can encourage reproduction (or whatever silly excuse people image it has in encouraging heterosexual unions only) with civil unions just as easily as with marriages so there's no harm to the state. Even if you think marriage is a religious thing then you shouldn't care if wider society recognizes it as sacred. Wanting people to recognize your legal rights is a completely separate thing.

Everyone gets what they want. Everyone goes home happy.

 

[Åzurε]

In case nobody gets why I don't like this discussion, this page kinda says it all. I'm making one more post, and I won't be addressing everything. VMs still welcome, don't expect instant responses.

Richard Lynch: Selective reading is not required, but that's another discussion. We've all heard "Love the sinner, hate the sin", right? Cliche it may be, but it's the truth. The possessor of the sin is unholy, but not hated.
"Men are superior to women, slavery, etc. etc."
Another common issue I have a remedy for. Jonah's case is fun to explain.

Erik Destler: Why Can't I Own a Canadian is near-irrelevant. The first paragraph says the person in question is a Jew. I understand why you brought it up, but it doesn't apply to Christianity. And neither did I forget about those lines of yours. On the note of inaccuracies the original Hebrew/Greek is the way to go. Still have some meditating to do on this one...

I'm sorry I didn't answer all of everyone's objections, but what do you really expect? While I feel I've discovered many answers, I've not found every one and I don't have tons of time for this. As was previously stated, I could still stand a VM or two. Just saying the door's open. Cheers.

 

[lx_theo]

The obvious solution to this problem is for governments to stop recognizing marriages of any kind and to recognize only civil unions in their place. Anybody can get a civil union. If you also want a marriage on top of that then that's your choice and you can go to whatever religious institution will have you. Marriage is all personal anyway, right? The government can encourage reproduction (or whatever silly excuse people image it has in encouraging heterosexual unions only) with civil unions just as easily as with marriages so there's no harm to the state. Even if you think marriage is a religious thing then you shouldn't care if wider society recognizes it as sacred. Wanting people to recognize your legal rights is a completely separate thing.

Everyone gets what they want. Everyone goes home happy.

I can just see the riots if someone tried that. People whine. And they whine a lot. About everything.

 

[Timbjerr]

Trust me, a flame fight is the last thing I want. What I would like is to see this thread locked and this discussion to end. But the most valid point I raised you chose to ignore. Why do straight people care about gay marriage?

...

Besides the main point of what I was saying is, why do straight people even care if gays want to marry or not if it has no effect on them, and you've failed to answer that question. Nobody has answered this question yet at all.

That's the question of the hour I guess. The best shot I can make is that fundamentalists acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin, and are attempting to bar same-sex marriage to save the souls of the gays that could be tempted by Satan into marrying an then committing sodomy. It's a weak explanation at best and highly flawed, but it's the only halfway legitimate argument that side of the debate can offer.

Sorry if I came off as overly irritable in my last post. I do that sometimes. =/

 

[FreakyLocz14]

In my state, Califonia, same-sex couples already have all of the legal rights of marriage under California Family Code section 297.

So obviously they want something more than just legal rights. They want to force acceptance of their lifestyle on the general public.

 

[Silver]

The way I see it is, this should be a purely legal issue void of all religious arguments. That being what is the difference between a man/man or women/women couple getting married versus a man/women couple getting married?

And if you were to bring religion in to this discussion. So what if homosexuality is a 'sin'? Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins. God is loving and accepting, he's not going to damn someone to hell for committing a 'sin'.

Also I suggest you read this thread explaining why homosexuality is not a sin.

You claimed to be a Gay Christian in one of your earlier posts, and you plan on getting married in the church? Good luck with that.

Also just going to point out that this isn't as hard as it used to be. I know personally that my pastor embraces gay couples that wish to get married in our church.

 

[Akio123]

I mean, how can being gay be a sin? I mean consider the following:

Sexuality is a combination of genetics and environment: Mostly the former. I mean if you are born a certain way then how can it be consider evil? Your God, made the person the way they were so does that mean that God intentionally made some people by default sinners for just being?

If it is a sin that makes it a choice so does that mean up til puberty all humans were bisexual and chose to be gay or straight? : Okay as a Bisexual, I have to say that I was born this way, but I don't think the whole world was and then chose. Sexuality would literally be moot if that was the case.

For Christians, are we really allowed to pass judgment on one another because of a 2000 year old book? : Okay, I'm a athiest, but I went to Catholic school after Lutheran school, so I'm pretty well versed on Christianity. Remember the following quote by Christ himself "Yee who is without sin cast the first stone." I mean let's bite for a moment and humor those who consider being gay a sin (Remember I can't by default consider it a sin XD). Who among us hasn't done something offensive? I mean we can't persecute people for their "faults."

We are not letting people get married and have a nice life because of a book: Yes, I understand it is the backbone and substance of the Christianity? But you know what really is the thriving force? The people! People, gay, straight, bisexual who just believe in a higher being. I mean I believe if you just believe in God you deserve to get married. If you are a tax paying, law abiding, (and I suppose) God fearing being, why can't you get married? The reason, because of a book that is grossly been misinterpreted and translated so many times that it could have been completely different meanings 2000 years ago. (Never mind that not everything in the bible is suppose to be taken literally).

Sex couples and Different sex couples in Raising children: I made a point earlier that honestly, its not the sexuality that matters but the quality of parenting. I mean a key in this argument is that people who are gay can't properly raise children because of their sexuality. I mean what does sexuality, other than possibly modeling, really do in parenting?


Alright, I've said my piece. I don't mean to incite any flame wars or offend anyone just wanted to get some points out there.

 

[Timbjerr]

I mean, how can being gay be a sin? I mean consider the following:

Sexuality is a combination of genetics and environment: Mostly the former. I mean if you are born a certain way then how can it be consider evil? Your God, made the person the way they were so does that mean that God intentionally made some people by default sinners for just being?

According to the book of Leviticus (where the fundamentalists pull the justification for their prejudice from), being gay isn't a sin. Engaging in deviant sexual activity is a sin. I just feel the need to clarify that every time I see someone make that misconception.

The irony comes from the fact that devoted homosexual couples will engage in such activities regardless of whether or not they're allowed to get married, at which point, the only people that suffer are the chaste homosexual couples that are a-okay by the Bible. XD

For Christians, are we really allowed to pass judgment on one another because of a 2000 year old book? : Okay, I'm a athiest, but I went to Catholic school after Lutheran school, so I'm pretty well versed on Christianity. Remember the following quote by Christ himself "Yee who is without sin cast the first stone." I mean let's bite for a moment and humor those who consider being gay a sin (Remember I can't by default consider it a sin XD). Who among us hasn't done something offensive? I mean we can't persecute people for their "faults."

Like I said earlier in the thread. Fundamentalist Christians are particularly humorous because they put more faith in a book that's been edited 9001 time throughout human history by men that care less about philosophy than maintaining their hold on power than they do in the words of their messiah whom the religion is named after. XD

 

[twocows]

I don't even understand why people are against same-sex marriage. It doesn't really hurt anyone, and it's not like someone's forcing something on you, they're just opening up the option for others who may want to do that. I understand that some people may feel that it's morally wrong, but doesn't that just mean those people shouldn't do it? That seems sufficient to me.

 

[Akio123]

According to the book of Leviticus (where the fundamentalists pull the justification for their prejudice from), being gay isn't a sin. Engaging in deviant sexual activity is a sin. I just feel the need to clarify that every time I see someone make that misconception.

The irony comes from the fact that devoted homosexual couples will engage in such activities regardless of whether or not they're allowed to get married, at which point, the only people that suffer are the chaste homosexual couples that are a-okay by the Bible. XD



Like I said earlier in the thread. Fundamentalist Christians are particularly humorous because they put more faith in a book that's been edited 9001 time throughout human history by men that care less about philosophy than maintaining their hold on power than they do in the words of their messiah whom the religion is named after. XD

I meant being as an in engaging, I should have been more clear. Also it's just fundamentalists I mean a lot of Christians who don't sure the puritanical beliefs as Fundamentalists believe the same thing. Only it's just not wanting gay marriage instead of outright HATING gays.


Also I mean it's not that ironic, I mean we have those basic human needs. Gay, bi, straight, you need to fulfill those needs. I mean yeah I get what you are saying, Many Christians deem it deviant behavior, but I mean it's the same Christians who go around having pre marital sex and engaging in other things "God" would deem unsavory to say the least. XD

 

[FreakyLocz14]

The way I see it is, this should be a purely legal issue void of all religious arguments. That being what is the difference between a man/man or women/women couple getting married versus a man/women couple getting married?

And if you were to bring religion in to this discussion. So what if homosexuality is a 'sin'? Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins. God is loving and accepting, he's not going to damn someone to hell for committing a 'sin'.

Also I suggest you read this thread explaining why homosexuality is not a sin.


Also just going to point out that this isn't as hard as it used to be. I know personally that my pastor embraces gay couples that wish to get married in our church.

You cannot discuss marriage without discussing religion. The institution of marriage is deeply rooted in religion (like I've been saying the whole time). We can discuss the legal rights associated with marriage without discussing marriage itself to avoid religion; however, that would mean thAT civil unions or domestic partnerships would suffice in achieving the "equality" goal if it's really all about rights and benefits.

 

[lx_theo]

You cannot discuss marriage without discussing religion. The institution of marriage is deeply rooted in religion (like I've been saying the whole time). We can discuss the legal rights associated with marriage without discussing marriage itself to avoid religion; however, that would mean thAT civil unions or domestic partnerships would suffice in achieving the "equality" goal if it's really all about rights and benefits.

It wouldn't though, because refusing marriage (a legal process, like I've said) based on religious reasons is constitutional. Civil Unions and Domestic Partnerships have two problems, they are seen as a different thing than marriage and they don't have the societal prowess marriage does. Benefits aren't the only thing that make marriage what it is. Religion is deeply rooted into it in context of history and tradition, but legally it can't be.

 

[Akio123]

You cannot discuss marriage without discussing religion. The institution of marriage is deeply rooted in religion (like I've been saying the whole time). We can discuss the legal rights associated with marriage without discussing marriage itself to avoid religion; however, that would mean thAT civil unions or domestic partnerships would suffice in achieving the "equality" goal if it's really all about rights and benefits.

Nobody is denying the fact that marriage is rooted in religion, but refer to my earlier post. I mean like its rooted in religion from old precedents in a really old book that was (mis)translated over 9000 times.