Suspects discussion : Round 5

[Dark Azelf]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3455084

For those of you living under a rock, the suspect round has ended and these are the pokemon and moves being suggested for bans this round (in approx order of nominations) the most.

Main noms.

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---Excadrill---
As you can see, massive amount of noms this round by everyone for excadrill. :(

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---Baton Pass/Espeon/Shell Smash---
Baton Pass is being mass nominated mostly and people are trying to nominate the other things that nerf BP teams and smashpassing.
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---Volcarona---
This has been nommed alot too

---Weather---
Duh lol
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---Dragonite/multiscale---

Lesser but still notable noms.


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---Retest Chomp (if ss is banned)/Manaphy (if drizzle is banned)/Blaz (if drought is banned)/D-N (wasn't given a fair test)---
Mostly being suggested by people with no req's.

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---Thundurus---
Its not being nommed much this round, but remember it only needs a SIMPLE majority to be banned this round.

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---Deoxys-S---

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---Reuniclus---

---Sandveil/Snowcloak---


Discuss, opinions, thoughts ?

 

[Cycle]

People are nomming random stuff a lot. Like. a lot.

I saw some Conkeldurr noms, Jirachi noms, Hydreigon noms, etc.

People are getting way to ban happy and seem to want to ban anything that gets in the way of their team ://

 

[Mister Coffee]

I just get upset about Legend pokemon.
I mean it just feels like the Legendary Pokemon are so good that they're like cheating. It should be like the rules of the battle corners in some of the older games where all legendary pokemon should be banned.

As far as I'm convinced though, everything outside of Legendary Pokemon are fair game. I mean if somebody has made a team that wrecks with good stats and good combos, that's just good strategy.
I'm just against Legends because all their stats are ridiculously high and need little to no work for improvement.

 

[Cycle]

I just get upset about Legend pokemon.
I mean it just feels like the Legendary Pokemon are so good that they're like cheating. It should be like the rules of the battle corners in some of the older games where all legendary pokemon should be banned.

As far as I'm convinced though, everything outside of Legendary Pokemon are fair game. I mean if somebody has made a team that wrecks with good stats and good combos, that's just good strategy.
I'm just against Legends because all their stats are ridiculously high and need little to no work for improvement.

This post is ridiculous. I would much rather face Entei than Blaziken. Something "legendary" doesn't mean it's uber.


Please leave this section if that's what you think. I'm sorry, but legends don't make things uber.

 

[PokeLen]

I just get upset about Legend pokemon.
I mean it just feels like the Legendary Pokemon are so good that they're like cheating. It should be like the rules of the battle corners in some of the older games where all legendary pokemon should be banned.

As far as I'm convinced though, everything outside of Legendary Pokemon are fair game. I mean if somebody has made a team that wrecks with good stats and good combos, that's just good strategy.
I'm just against Legends because all their stats are ridiculously high and need little to no work for improvement.

Snaggle P., it all depends on the Pokemon's stats. There's certain Legendaries who have stats that are really high (take Kyogre for example), and then there are legendaries that have stats equal to, or even worse sometimes, than regular Pokemon (such as Cobalion, Terakion, and Virizion). Those are just some examples, but there are plenty more. A Pokemon's moveset and ability also play a HUGE role in whether it goes Uber or not. Take Blaziken for example. With his new ability, Speed Boost, he gets placed in Uber. Before that, he was UU.

There are some Pokemon who literally rip apart the metagame. If every team had a certain Pokemon because it was really good and the metagame overcentralized over that one Pokemon, then it will be moved out of that specific tier. This will allow more creativity and diversity to flow within that tier. Some centralizing is good for a metagame, but complete over-centralizing (which is what Garchomp did to OU) forces Smogon to ban that Pokemon, to make the experience of battling better for everyone, and as I said before, create a more diverse and creative metagame.

With that said, I'm kinda iffy on both Excadrill and Thundurus. Both are great Pokemon, but that's all they are. Just...great. I'm not sure what I feel about them because at times the metagame does seem overcentralized around weather and the dominance of Excadrill and Thundurus sweeps.

Even though Deoxys-S isn't banned right now, I don't see it as much as Excadrill and Thundurus. It's also very fragile, and although it has quite a big moveset, allowing it to be very versatile, it still doesn't feel to me as a big threat. As for the others, meh, without sandstorm Garchomp might not be as bad so it is worth testing, same with Manaphy.

Everything else I haven't had much experience with, to be quite honest, but it seems to me like what they're testing is good stuff. Except Reuniclus. Why...are they testing that? :/

This post is ridiculous. I would much rather face Entei than Blaziken. Something "legendary" doesn't mean it's uber.


Please leave this section if that's what you think. I'm sorry, but legends don't make things uber.

There's no reason to act like that. He's new to competitive and there's no reason we need to act like that to him. You could have made a little explanation, he would understand, and everyone would be happy. :/

 

[champagnepapi]

i only have one thing to say:

why deoxys-s ;____;

seriously. ):

edit: karp explained mostly everything but still deo-s is amazing. D:

Mainly because it's too unpredictable, you can send in Gliscor expecting a SR/Spikes/Taunt/Superpower set and then BOOM Ice Beam. Due to its unpredictability, it can usually get screens or hazards up with ease, as you haphazardly spam protect and switch, to try and scout the set.

Anyhow:

I'm hoping Exca doesn't get banned, but Shrang seems to have a nice following, one that I agree with as well, Exca is pretty much my team's answer to heavy offense.

I'd be fine with Volcarona in OU, but I'll admit it's insanely good in the hands of a good player, so I'd be fine with a ban, too.

Ban Dnite, it's insanely hard to beat with Multiscale, and can come in and check anything in the game with Multiscale intact, Dragonite only really has one hard counter in Quag, as Gliscor can fall to Bulky DD if it lacks taunt, and Tangrowth gets roasted if it has even 1 Special Attack. With Multiscale and the potential to run Mixed Sets, it's essentially now harder to counter, than ever before.

I'm fine with running Jirachi or CB Tar on every team, since both are cute, but I still strongly support a Reuniclus ban, even though I've adapted, since Reuniclus lacks very few hard counters and its bulk is incredible, it's a nice check to fighting types though, so I'll miss that.

Bpass deserves a ban, too, it's very, very hard to beat unless you have a solid way to counter it, and those "solid ways" are hard to come by. Espeon and Shell Smash kind of broke BP, even though the move isn't broken on its own.

 

[Mister Coffee]

@ Cycle, lol U MAD?

First of all, Blaziken may be good, but there are other pokemon who can, a. Use Speed Boost, b. Kill Blaziken, c. Can sweep better than Blaziken.

Something shouldn't be banned because it's good, something should be banned because it's abusive.

Although my online experience is not enough, I have come up against Speed Boost Blaziken, and my Sharpedo took it down quite quickly and efficiently.
You can say this for just about any pokemon that is powerful, they all have weaknesses, all you have to do is learn how to exploit those weaknesses.

For me, Legends just seem annoying. Then again, most of the really annoying Legends tend to be dragons and outside of Legends, I hate Dragons. So I guess it comes down to that I hate Dragons the most. Personal Bias.
Dragons are Obnoxious and I refuse to play them in Online.

Also I'm assuming that these bans are for people who are competing with each other on these forums. So these bans have no reign on the regular internet fights. Why bother banning when it has no effect outside of this web site? I compete everywhere, not just here.

 

[Vrai]

@ Cycle, lol U MAD?

First of all, Blaziken may be good, but there are other pokemon who can, a. Use Speed Boost, b. Kill Blaziken, c. Can sweep better than Blaziken.

Something shouldn't be banned because it's good, something should be banned because it's abusive.

Although my online experience is not enough, I have come up against Speed Boost Blaziken, and my Sharpedo took it down quite quickly and efficiently.
You can say this for just about any pokemon that is powerful, they all have weaknesses, all you have to do is learn how to exploit those weaknesses.

For me, Legends just seem annoying. Then again, most of the really annoying Legends tend to be dragons and outside of Legends, I hate Dragons. So I guess it comes down to that I hate Dragons the most. Personal Bias.
Dragons are Obnoxious and I refuse to play them in Online.

Also I'm assuming that these bans are for people who are competing with each other on these forums. So these bans have no reign on the regular internet fights. Why bother banning when it has no effect outside of this web site? I compete everywhere, not just here.

Bans are established by Smogon; most people follow Smogon tiers, meaning most legitimate places you go to battle online will use these tiers in which we ban things. If you want to see someplace that uses completely random tiers that they vote on themselves and only use there, you can check out Mysidia which has unbanned things like Rayquaza and Mewtwo because they're apparently not powerful enough to be in Ubers. :(

But yes, Blaziken is far too strong. It has great coverage in its STABs and could run a purely Physical set or a Mixed set. In either case, Blaziken in Drought (most people ran it with Sun) was incredibly powerful and much more so than Sharpedo. Don't make an estimation on how you beat it a single time that you fought it. Who says that person you played was even using it properly? When used correctly, Blaziken can OHKO or 2HKO everything in the game except like Slowbro (and it can finish off a weakened Slowbro with Shadow Claw, too). Yes, it was too broken. Yes, it was too powerful. It was banned. We ban things not because they're good (or ...abusive? I have never heard that term utilized in such a manner lol) but because they're too good.

If you find that you don't like using certain Pokemon, don't use them. But no one else is going to jump in and say that we should ban all 'Legendaries' or Dragon-type Pokemon, simply because if you understood the way bans are supposed to work, we don't ban things on the grounds that they're annoying. We ban them on the grounds that they're far too good for the rest of the Pokemon to handle. The goal is to get a balanced metagame, not a banfest of what we find stupid or annoying.

 

[Dark Azelf]

If you want to see someplace that uses completely random tiers that they vote on themselves and only use there, you can check out Mysidia which has unbanned things like Rayquaza and Mewtwo because they're apparently not powerful enough to be in Ubers. :(

Wait...are you kidding me, they actually did that ? R O F L....

Also half of the re test Blaziken noms are stupid tbh. People claiming that things like Poison Heal Gliscor, Gyara, Mence, Jellicent and Nite wall it. Im just like "maybe if you weren't ignorant and did damage calcs, then you'd see how Baziken proceeds to OHKO every single one of those in the sun with a SD and SR up and this is with leftovers POST intimidate". Then you get your "IT LOSES TO PRIORITY" lolguments. Kindly tell me what is going to KO Blaziken without the exceedingly rare Aqua Jet with priority ? Ughh lol.

Anyway, seems Exca is most likely going to go this round which sucks as its like the only spinner that works really which is gonna make Ferrothorns job easier (:/). But on the bright side stall (well actually every play style) wont have to use Gliscor on every darn team, which is a good thing. Outside if that im not too fussed with whats gets banned apart from Volc, Reuni and BP whom i shall all vote uber. =P

EDIT:

Crying laughing at Mewtwo and Ray in ou. God my stomach hurts now i think i tore something, thanks Vrai lol . :/

 

[Mister Coffee]

I don't know, it just doesn't feel right to ban some of these things.
I mean I have had my fair share of getting my butt kicked by some of the pokemon being named off for banning, but I have never been so angry or frustrated at it that I wanted them banned.

However, if you ban them, we the players following the rules, are not allowed to enjoy the use of those pokemon, and the people who do not follow these rules get to continue using these pokemon and still can annoy you with these pokemon.
Also, I doubt that these being banned pokemon will be changed much as the Pokemon games continue being made, so does this mean that nobody on this website will ever be allowed to play Blaziken or Excadrill on this website ever again? That hardly seems fun.

Does anybody see what I'm getting at with this?

 

[champagnepapi]

I'm not defending Mysidia or anything, but I recall that they left Rayquazza/Mewtwo unbanned due to either forgetting to update after their initial suspect, or just having them banned on their official banlist, but never updating the tier on the server, which could potentially be more embarassing, depending on how you take it, but I don't think we should bash other forums and suspect systems, regardless. At any rate, I'm really going to hate to see Excadrill go, but I don't think the following can be defeated at this point, especially with the extremely compelling it was nice having him in OU, though, he'll be dearly missed. Blaziken retest is a bad idea, I agree with that, because even if Latias walls it with ease, it can always just pass to something else to kill it, not to mention its STABs are extremely powerful in and out of sun.

I hope Volturn can get a following as well, because what Excadrill is to heavy offense, Volturn is to stall, Rotom-W is extremely annoying, but not broken on its own, neither is Scizor, but Volturn absolutely penalizes you for switching, which the metagame is based on, and allows your opponent to potentially trap a key wall via a "pseudo double switch", double switches used to be done with prediction, and not just by spamming a move until things die, that's almost like the simulator telling you if the opponent will switch each turn, and to what, I find it Antimetagame because it discourages both prediction and switching.

 

[Cycle]

@ Cycle, lol U MAD?

First of all, Blaziken may be good, but there are other pokemon who can, a. Use Speed Boost, b. Kill Blaziken, c. Can sweep better than Blaziken.

Something shouldn't be banned because it's good, something should be banned because it's abusive.

Although my online experience is not enough, I have come up against Speed Boost Blaziken, and my Sharpedo took it down quite quickly and efficiently.
You can say this for just about any pokemon that is powerful, they all have weaknesses, all you have to do is learn how to exploit those weaknesses.

For me, Legends just seem annoying. Then again, most of the really annoying Legends tend to be dragons and outside of Legends, I hate Dragons. So I guess it comes down to that I hate Dragons the most. Personal Bias.
Dragons are Obnoxious and I refuse to play them in Online.

Also I'm assuming that these bans are for people who are competing with each other on these forums. So these bans have no reign on the regular internet fights. Why bother banning when it has no effect outside of this web site? I compete everywhere, not just here.

Thanks for a good laugh, really.

Blaziken beats Sharpedo assuming sun is up and Sharpedo switches into Blaziken. HJK is a clean OHKO, and I bet an LO Flare Blitz might OHKO too (!!). Ninjask and Sharpedo aren't that great as speed boosters, Sharpedo being the better one of course. Neither get 130+120 BP stab moves and lack a boosting move.


The legend arguement is funny as hell. So you want Regigigas to get banned even though no one even uses it and it has slow start?

Also, while most "legends" are ubers, most have fairly balanced stats and are OU viable, not uber.

See Mew for example.

It's a great pokemon. Bulky defenses. Average offenses.

You run a dragon tail set. But can it, say, do that better than Gyarados for example?

The answer is obviously no. Legends perform in specific roles that they shine in but that doesn't mean they're broken. Having 100 in all stats is fairly average and definitely not uber material (bar Manaphy lol that thing is ridiculous).

CBA to continue since you'll just give more arguements that make no sense

 

[PokeLen]

I don't know, it just doesn't feel right to ban some of these things.
I mean I have had my fair share of getting my butt kicked by some of the pokemon being named off for banning, but I have never been so angry or frustrated at it that I wanted them banned.

However, if you ban them, we the players following the rules, are not allowed to enjoy the use of those pokemon, and the people who do not follow these rules get to continue using these pokemon and still can annoy you with these pokemon.
Also, I doubt that these being banned pokemon will be changed much as the Pokemon games continue being made, so does this mean that nobody on this website will ever be allowed to play Blaziken or Excadrill on this website ever again? That hardly seems fun.

Does anybody see what I'm getting at with this?

No offense buddy, but you clearly don't understand competitive play. Most people use a simulator called Pokemon Online, and once you've entered a tier (for example, OU), you won't be able to use those Pokemon. It's not like DS Wifi where you're one and one and can pick any Pokemon. The tier you chose to battle in restricts you from using the Pokemon.

And no, if you wish to use those Pokemon, you can play in the Ubers metagame. It's much better to have two balanced tiers than 1 unbalanced tier and 1 balanced tier. Dark Azelf pretty much explained why Blaziken was banned, but you clearly "overlooked" it.

Do some research before posting in a competitive battling thread. Also Cycle, I apologize for what I said earlier. I thought he would understand after a simple explanation, but I guess some people just don't understand.

 

[Mister Coffee]

I know I haven't been doing competitive play for very long, but it doesn't mean you guys have to insult me. I'm not Obstinate, it's just it doesn't make sense to me.

Look at it the way I'm trying to explain it.
There are a group of people who play competitively, everybody is playing generally on the same level, you win some you lose some.
Somebody realizes, Hey if you play a pokemon with a specific build and specific abilities and moves, you gain an advantage over playing. You play with Blaziken a specific way and you win a lot. This is something that somebody went out of their way to play and use. They put in an effort to have a pokemon to win this way.

Suddenly everybody starts seeing the power potential in this and starts using it. Obviously it begins to take over, but in competitive play people discover new ways to defeat these problems. People begin to design a pokemon that can take down the threat that is Blaziken or Excadrill. Suddenly with people preparing themselves for dealing with that threat, the threat isn't so threatening any more. That is the amazing power of human adaptability.

However, if you simply ban the pokemon, nobody is allowed the fun of playing a good powerful pokemon, simply because a few people would rather whine about it being too powerful instead of trying to accommodate the problem and over come it. Nobody is able to learn from the challenge of dealing with a power house pokemon.

If you guys still don't understand what I'm trying to say here, I'll stop, I'd be just wasting my efforts after this.

As for what I was saying about Legendary pokemon, I am sorry, I was wrong. I took some time to look up stats and builds and have realized, not all Legendary Pokemon are ridiculous. Now that that's been said I would prefer not to be flamed by it.

 

[Anti]

Spoiler:

From here on out, I expect the whole "hey let's derail this thread with abusive posts because being rude and condescending is the best strategy for having a discussion" gimmick to end. Saying things like "thanks for a good laugh" or "leave this section" aren't very productive ways of going about making a point. If you think a post is against the rules, report it. If not, don't break the rules yourself--be respectful, in other words.

 

[Cycle]

I know I haven't been doing competitive play for very long, but it doesn't mean you guys have to insult me. I'm not Obstinate, it's just it doesn't make sense to me.

Look at it the way I'm trying to explain it.
There are a group of people who play competitively, everybody is playing generally on the same level, you win some you lose some.
Somebody realizes, Hey if you play a pokemon with a specific build and specific abilities and moves, you gain an advantage over playing. You play with Blaziken a specific way and you win a lot. This is something that somebody went out of their way to play and use. They put in an effort to have a pokemon to win this way.

Suddenly everybody starts seeing the power potential in this and starts using it. Obviously it begins to take over, but in competitive play people discover new ways to defeat these problems. People begin to design a pokemon that can take down the threat that is Blaziken or Excadrill. Suddenly with people preparing themselves for dealing with that threat, the threat isn't so threatening any more. That is the amazing power of human adaptability.

However, if you simply ban the pokemon, nobody is allowed the fun of playing a good powerful pokemon, simply because a few people would rather whine about it being too powerful instead of trying to accommodate the problem and over come it. Nobody is able to learn from the challenge of dealing with a power house pokemon.

If you guys still don't understand what I'm trying to say here, I'll stop, I'd be just wasting my efforts after this.

As for what I was saying about Legendary pokemon, I am sorry, I was wrong. I took some time to look up stats and builds and have realized, not all Legendary Pokemon are ridiculous. Now that that's been said I would prefer not to be flamed by it.

I'm sorry for the rudeness, I've been having a bad week this week and I haven't been feeling very good at all. We both made mistakes and I'm sorry for flaming at you.

I'll reply to this in a more civilized manner this time.


The reason people ban pokemons is because they're simply unhealthy for the metagame. The definition of a metagame is to adapt and change according to what's best at the time. This happens because threats are banned from standard play, which means new threats will fill in their role, thus, the metagame changes and adapts.

People like to play in a metagame where thing's don't sweep them because they're broken.


Let's take Thundurus for example.

People want to ban this because the NP set literally rips through just about everything.

Assuming this gets banned, another special sweeper may fill in this role (such as Azelf, Latios, etc.)



Again, I'm sorry for the nasty behavior, and I hope you accept this apology. It was wrong of me to flame you. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[Mister Coffee]

Well, I mean, if you ban one sweeper, then you have to ban them all.
You ban one sweeper, people will flock to another sweeper, then people complain about that one, then that sweeper is banned. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Don't you think that after a while of banning all the fun powerful pokemon, there will just be boring pokemon that nobody cares about?

I mean you even said it yourself, that pokemon keep getting banned because the ones before them are banned and people flock to new ones.
However think of this, if you DON'T ban pokemon that are scary, that allows people to realize, "Hey this pokemon is abusive, however, if I use this pokemon against it, I will take it down, and win."
Powerful pokemon can take down other powerful pokemon, this easily can provide a balance.

I'm just trying to say that all this bureaucratic banning seems to just continuously reproduce the problem rather than end the problem. After banning one powerful pokemon, suddenly there's a new threat that people are worried about that needs to be banned.

 

[Barn]

I'm sorry bud but that isn't how it works. I'm not a pro at this either but I know that if you ban a sweeper people don't "flock" to another. There is a reason for why Blaziken is banned other than "it's too hard to beat and everyone's using this sweeper and it's annoying."

Someone mentioned up there about Blaziken KOing half the OU tier. It can outspeed almost anything with Speed Boost/Protect/etc if it's been in for enough turns. It's got access to Swords Dance, which boosts its 120 base Atk. Slowbro can resist it, but... still, you see what we're trying to tell you?

Blaziken isn't "just a sweeper" it's got like... no counters in OU, and is pretty darn good.

Also, might I reference Garchomp and Salamence, who were popular in fourth Gen OU but then got banned and, while they were popular, people just didn't "flock" to a new sweeper. The OU tier became more balanced.

Anyone feel free to correct me or... whatever.

edit:

Powerful pokemon can take down other powerful pokemon, this easily can provide a balance.

Can you provide a check for Blaziken?

 

[Livewire]

I'm sorry bud but that isn't how it works. I'm not a pro at this either but I know that if you ban a sweeper people don't "flock" to another. There is a reason for why Blaziken is banned other than "it's too hard to beat and everyone's using this sweeper and it's annoying."

Someone mentioned up there about Blaziken KOing half the OU tier. It can outspeed almost anything with Speed Boost/Protect/etc if it's been in for enough turns. It's got access to Swords Dance, which boosts its 120 base Atk. Slowbro can resist it, but... still, you see what we're trying to tell you?

Blaziken isn't "just a sweeper" it's got like... no counters in OU, and is pretty darn good.

Also, might I reference Garchomp and Salamence, who were popular in fourth Gen OU but then got banned and, while they were popular, people just didn't "flock" to a new sweeper. The OU tier became more balanced.

Anyone feel free to correct me or... whatever.

edit:

Can you provide a check for Blaziken?

Predict the High Jump Kick, switch in Jellicent.

Look at the previous generation. Garchomp gets banned. Then the next powerful dragon takes it's place in Mence. mence finally gets banned, then yet another rises to take it's place, because all the things Mence previously checked, aren't. It's a cycle. Early on in Gen V, certain sweepers like Terrakion, Landorus, etc, wrecked absolutely everything. Notice how these suspect hearings fluctuate every now and then, depending on what's been banned and what hasn't.

 

[Vrai]

Predict the High Jump Kick, switch in Jellicent.

Prediction is not and should not be used as an argument for checks/counters. They can use prediction just as well as you can. The only thing that can counter Blaziken in the sun is Slowbro and that's because he has huge base Def and STAB Psychic to take Blaziken down. Literally nothing else can beat it...