That's so gay.

[Tyheamma]

So I know this thread is getting old, but I actually had a similar discussion with my friend the other day and it really peed me off. My friend was telling me that a child had been suspended from school for saying 'this work is gay'. I've always used this word to describe something that is lame, or stupid and I've never known anyone to be offended by it, so I laughed, thinking she'd also think the whole being excluded for saying gay was a bit of a joke. Well, oh my God, her reaction. She told me it was not funny, it was a disgusting word to use, it was highly offensive and homophobic, she suggests I never say it again... I just continued to laugh.

People are far, far too easily offended these days. Someone bought up the argument of 'people would be so offended if you used the word fat to describe something stupid'. I have heard on numerous occasions people saying 'big fat liar'. Have any of my fat friends ever been offended? No. Was I, as a former fat kid, offended by this? No. Because the word is being used in a different context. People aren't directly insulting you by saying things are gay, or using terms like 'big fat liar', 'this is (situation) so black'. These words have different connotations. Now if someone outright called someone 'a dirty gay boy' then yes, that is offensive, because that's insulting their sexuality and suggesting their is something wrong with being a homosexual.

I'm not sure how I feel about it. I mean, I'm not personally offended by it (though I'm bi not gay, I can't imagine I'd be offended by "that's so bi" either). That's probably because I don't feel that my sexuality is so closely tied to my identity. In fact, it has no connection to my identity or who I am as a person whatsoever, so why should I be personally offended?
.

So I wanted to quote this because it overall sums up how I feel about issues like this. I don't like terms like lesbian, bisexual, homosexual because I disagree with people putting themselves into categories and identifying themselves as these things. I myself am attracted to people, men, women, transgendered people. I refuse to call myself a bisexual, because I don't want to label myself. I am a human, who likes people. I think people need to stop trying to force themselves into categories and just be... a person, a human being.

I hope that all made sense, it's been a long time since I've entered a debate and I've just finished work so I'm incredibly tired. ;) x

 

[Jeshkat]

don't have too much to add to this, I don't think it's offensive, the context it's used in obviously matters a lot. I think language is a wonderful, beautiful thing and to be so ignorant to it as to use the word "gay" in a negative context is just ridiculous when there's so many more effective words. This picture came to mind when I saw this thread, actually.

 

[Dakotah]

Words, regardless of the context, are not normally offensive to those they do not apply.

 

[Trev]

I have openly bi/gay friends who say "That's so gay" all the time. Believe it or not, most LGBT people don't really care. None of them get offended if I or anyone else says that. For me, I think it's personally okay if you're not directing it in a hurtful way to someone. Like someone above said, being bi/gay/whatever shouldn't be your identity unless you want it to be.

 

[Dakotah]

I have openly bi/gay friends who say "That's so gay" all the time. Believe it or not, most LGBT people don't really care. None of them get offended if I or anyone else says that. For me, I think it's personally okay if you're not directing it in a hurtful way to someone. Like someone above said, being bi/gay/whatever shouldn't be your identity unless you want it to be.

I can tell you, as a gay man who has worked at one of North America's largest seasonal campgrounds geared toward the LGBT community, that not once have I ever heard one person speak in favor of using the word "gay" in a manner other than one that describes someone with same sex attraction. The LGBT community I am used to, and it is a very large one (numbering in the thousands), roundly rejects the use of the word in a pejorative manner. I have personally corrected several people on this immature behaviour, and they are immediately remorseful, having meant no offense. And I do it by looking them square in the eyes and saying: "No, I am gay. Just what did you mean by that?" Shuts them up right quick, except to offer an apology.

To the people of the LGBT community who use this word in such a manner, you should know better than most how some words can be used against us. Adopting this slang is no better than accepting any other form of homophobia. It demeans us, it belittles us, and it re-enforces the attitude that we are second-class citizens--if that--in the eyes of some.

 

[Trev]

I can tell you, as a gay man who has worked at one of North America's largest seasonal campgrounds geared toward the LGBT community, that not once have I ever heard one person speak in favor of using the word "gay" in a manner other than one that describes someone with same sex attraction. The LGBT community I am used to, and it is a very large one (numbering in the thousands), roundly rejects the use of the word in a pejorative manner. I have personally corrected several people on this immature behaviour, and they are immediately remorseful, having meant no offense. And I do it by looking them square in the eyes and saying: "No, I am gay. Just what did you mean by that?" Shuts them up right quick, except to offer an apology.

To the people of the LGBT community who use this word in such a manner, you should know better than most how some words can be used against us. Adopting this slang is no better than accepting any other form of homophobia. It demeans us, it belittles us, and it re-enforces the attitude that we are second-class citizens--if that--in the eyes of some.

First:

For me, I think it's personally okay if you're not directing it in a hurtful way to someone.

Second: while it's not nice to say something harmful to someone, people generally don't say that directly to someone unless it's a joke. Very rarely have I seen/heard anyone use that towards anyone negatively, and ones who had were strictly reprimanded for it. It's not like people just get away with it freely. Even so, I haven't ever seen anyone personally offended by it.

Third: every person is different. A lot of LGBT people just don't care or aren't offended by the saying. I have yet to meet one who hasn't said that slang at some point. I personally would chalk it up to various influences (home life, friends, personality, beliefs, peers/coworkers attitudes, etc.) that determine whether or not someone is offended by a specific something. Some people are offended by that saying, some aren't. It's just a fact of life.

 

[Ritzy Cat]

I use it with my friends. I use it in my head. My friends understand this and we understand each other. I hold nothing against any certain sexual identifications. I don't use it publicly or professionally. And I see no problem with any of the above.

 

[twocows]

To the people of the LGBT community who use this word in such a manner, you should know better than most how some words can be used against us. Adopting this slang is no better than accepting any other form of homophobia. It demeans us, it belittles us, and it re-enforces the attitude that we are second-class citizens--if that--in the eyes of some.

Why do you believe that?

I don't like to have to ask for evidence, but this claim gets thrown around a lot in these kinds of threads. I haven't seen evidence that it's true and I don't even know the rhetoric behind why you think it is.

 

[Gyardosamped]

As someone who's gay, I don't like using the word for anything other than describing someone's sexual orientation. That being said, I don't really find the term offensive unless it's being used in a derogatory manner. I don't like when people use the slang, but I don't consider them ignorant or hateful if they do use it, unless, of course, like I said, they use it to offend someone. All in all, the LGBT community needs to lighten up. I find that this community gets offended very easily by the most trivial of things, especially when people within our own bubble are perpetuating worse stereotypes, are very judgmental to people just like them, and are adopting slang that can be considered a lot worse than "that's so gay."

 

[Dakotah]

Why do you believe that?

I don't like to have to ask for evidence, but this claim gets thrown around a lot in these kinds of threads. I haven't seen evidence that it's true and I don't even know the rhetoric behind why you think it is.

I should think it was obvious. The word gay, now used to describe someone who has same-sex attractions, was initially used by people who were anti-gay as a way to demean and belittle us. It didn't work out too well for them, however, because the gay community claimed the word for its own, thereby stealing the power of the word from the homophobes.

But now, what we're seeing is a slide backwards to a time when the word gay was used in a pejorative manner. Used as slang it is used to equate "gay" with something that is stupid or lame or other such undesirable term. Even in jest, the mere use of this word to denote something is undesirable can be extremely damaging. Especially to those who are either insecure in their own sexuality or who are too afraid to come out because the atmosphere is hostile to people who are gay. When people use the word gay in such a pejorative manner, it can serve to reinforce that climate of fear and further stigmatize people.

It has even been reported that in schools, where students are using this term negatively, or even in jest, the gay teachers who are usually witness to it have indicated that it makes even them feel uneasy being who they are in that kind of environment.

Yes, context is everything, if you are surrounded by people who know you. But what about others not included in your little group who may not know you and then hear you speak so negatively about the word gay. It is damaging, it contributes to a climate of fear, and also can drive a person further into a state of depression.

Words have consequences. We have, generally, the right to speak freely without punishment by our governments, but that freedom does not absolve us of our responsibility to use that freedom responsibly. We can decide to be insensitive pricks, dismissing the feelings of others who may not particularly like that particular language, but we should also be prepared to face the consequences of our actions.

I could cite story after story where using the word gay in a pejorative manner has caused distress. But I know for some, they wouldn't care less. Even on here, which is relatively gay friendly.

 

[twocows]

I should think it was obvious. The word gay, now used to describe someone who has same-sex attractions, was initially used by people who were anti-gay as a way to demean and belittle us. It didn't work out too well for them, however, because the gay community claimed the word for its own, thereby stealing the power of the word from the homophobes.

But now, what we're seeing is a slide backwards to a time when the word gay was used in a pejorative manner. Used as slang it is used to equate "gay" with something that is stupid or lame or other such undesirable term. Even in jest, the mere use of this word to denote something is undesirable can be extremely damaging. Especially to those who are either insecure in their own sexuality or who are too afraid to come out because the atmosphere is hostile to people who are gay. When people use the word gay in such a pejorative manner, it can serve to reinforce that climate of fear and further stigmatize people.

It has even been reported that in schools, where students are using this term negatively, or even in jest, the gay teachers who are usually witness to it have indicated that it makes even them feel uneasy being who they are in that kind of environment.

Yes, context is everything, if you are surrounded by people who know you. But what about others not included in your little group who may not know you and then hear you speak so negatively about the word gay. It is damaging, it contributes to a climate of fear, and also can drive a person further into a state of depression.

Words have consequences. We have, generally, the right to speak freely without punishment by our governments, but that freedom does not absolve us of our responsibility to use that freedom responsibly. We can decide to be insensitive pricks, dismissing the feelings of others who may not particularly like that particular language, but we should also be prepared to face the consequences of our actions.

I could cite story after story where using the word gay in a pejorative manner has caused distress. But I know for some, they wouldn't care less. Even on here, which is relatively gay friendly.

A word sometimes used as an offensive pejorative for homosexuals means "cigarette" in some areas of the world. Do you think this implies a connection between cigarettes and homosexuals in either direction?

Sometimes, words have multiple meanings. I don't think people who use "gay" in a negative manner are using it to refer to or demean homosexuals, just like when I smash my finger and say "F***" or "S***," I don't mean "sexual intercourse" or "excrement," respectively. Neither meaning of any of these words implies anything about the other one; they exist independently of each other, as is the case with many words.

I don't use "gay" that way because it does distress some people and it's easy enough just not to use it, but I disagree that using it in that way is necessarily a bad thing. I don't think people are associating pejorative "gay" with homosexuals in most cases.

Moreover, I don't think we should stop saying things just because someone takes offense to them. I think there's something to be said for what can and cannot be reasonably expected social behavior, and I'm not sure which side this falls on. I think there's an argument for either way there.

 

[Oryx]

A word sometimes used as an offensive pejorative for homosexuals means "cigarette" in some areas of the world. Do you think this implies a connection between cigarettes and homosexuals in either direction?

Sometimes, words have multiple meanings. I don't think people who use "gay" in a negative manner are using it to refer to or demean homosexuals, just like when I smash my finger and say "F***" or "S***," I don't mean "sexual intercourse" or "excrement," respectively. Neither meaning of any of these words implies anything about the other one; they exist independently of each other, as is the case with many words.

I don't use "gay" that way because it does distress some people and it's easy enough just not to use it, but I disagree that using it in that way is necessarily a bad thing. I don't think people are associating pejorative "gay" with homosexuals in most cases.

I think this disregards historical context in defending the evolution of words. The word for cigarette did not develop as a reference to gay culture, it developed as an obvious reference to the bundle of sticks (it's a stick, you burn it). The pejorative developed alongside this as an unrelated term, so the two, although sounding the same, have no relation to one another. On the other hand, the use of "gay" as an insult came directly from homophobia, from the term being deemed an insult because being gay was looked down on, and developed into a generalized term.

That being said, the closest analogy would be "lame", which isn't generally seen as something we should avoid although it comes from similar origins. Maybe the difference between the two is that people with disabilities no longer use that word, and it's aged enough to end up unoffensive?

 

[Dakotah]

A word sometimes used as an offensive pejorative for homosexuals means "cigarette" in some areas of the world. Do you think this implies a connection between cigarettes and homosexuals in either direction?

Yes, because the act of smoking a cigarette can be, however illogically, be associated with oral sex.

Sometimes, words have multiple meanings. I don't think people who use "gay" in a negative manner are using it to refer to or demean homosexuals, just like when I smash my finger and say "F***" or "S***," I don't mean "sexual intercourse" or "excrement," respectively. Neither meaning of any of these words implies anything about the other one; they exist independently of each other, as is the case with many words.

Which is why I said context is everything, but even there the use of the word can be misinterpreted.

I disagree that using it in that way is necessarily a bad thing. I don't think people are associating pejorative "gay" with homosexuals in most cases.

It's irrelevant what people who use the word are associating it with. What matters is how the word is received, and in most cases that I've witnessed, it's received negatively. Even though I know the word is not being used to describe someone who is gay, it nevertheless is associating a gay person with something that is stupid, lame, or what have you. And I am very quick to point that out to someone. I don't stand for it in my presence. At all.

Moreover, I don't think we should stop saying things just because someone takes offense to them. I think there's something to be said for what can and cannot be reasonably expected social behavior, and I'm not sure which side this falls on. I think there's an argument for either way there.

I don't think there is. Not a legitimate one for it's continued use anyway as far as I am concerned. If I catch someone using it, you'd better believe I'll put a stop to it. Quickly.

 

[twocows]

Which is why I said context is everything, but even there the use of the word can be misinterpreted.

Context is broad and could mean many things. Does the context of the conversation matter, for instance?

It's irrelevant what people who use the word are associating it with. What matters is how the word is received,

Why?

I think the converse is true: what matters is the intent. We can't control how other people interpret things. We can control what we say, though, but only if we know and agree there is a problem with what we say to begin with, a problem significant enough to change the way we speak. And I'm undecided as to whether there is a significant problem in this case. Like I said, I don't use it like that around most people because I don't like to cause unnecessary distress, but I still don't agree with the reasoning behind why some people find it offensive. That always comes back to word association and I just don't agree that using a word in one way necessarily means you're trying to associate it with this other concept you didn't intend. You would say intent doesn't matter, but again, I believe intent is the important thing; if someone misinterprets, you just clarify.

Also, speaking more generally about offensive language, I tend to believe that if there's not reasonable cause to take offense to something, it shouldn't matter if someone does. People just like to complain. However, I don't think that's the case here. I agree that associating a word used to refer to homosexuals with negative concepts would be bad if people were doing it intentionally. So this isn't just a matter of "grow some skin" like with many things on this topic, I agree that it makes sense this could be a bad thing. But I think by this point, the one meaning is sufficiently independent from the other, and very few people who are using the term in that way are doing so to intentionally associate "bad things" with homosexuals.

 

[Dakotah]

Context is broad and could mean many things. Does the context of the conversation matter, for instance?

Only to those who are a part of the conversation itself.

I think the converse is true: what matters is the intent.

To who? Certainly not to the person who just happens to walk into a conversation to hear those words spoken and not be a party to the overall conversation. We keep forgetting that we don't live in a bubble. Our public conversations are just that, public, they can be heard by anyone within hearing distance. Should we then not be responsible to refrain from using language which we know can and does cause offense?

We can't control how other people interpret things. We can control what we say, though, but only if we know and agree there is a problem with what we say to begin with, a problem significant enough to change the way we speak. And I'm undecided as to whether there is a significant problem in this case.

Then I suggest you being reading about the stories where the usage of this word has had very real effects on people. If you don't know the problem exists then how can you hope to be a part of the solution, if that is your desire?

This is a very real problem that educators all over are having to tackle. They witness first hand the damage that these words have on students and teachers alike.

Like I said, I don't use it like that around most people because I don't like to cause unnecessary distress, but I still don't agree with the reasoning behind why some people find it offensive. That always comes back to word association and I just don't agree that using a word in one way necessarily means you're trying to associate it with this other concept you didn't intend. You would say intent doesn't matter, but again, I believe intent is the important thing; if someone misinterprets, you just clarify.

And as I stated before in an earlier post:

Words, regardless of the context, are not normally offensive to those they do not apply.

 

[avacado]

Although I should find it offensive considering I'm gay, I really don't. Then again, I often use it jokingly and not at all in a negative way - as in calling things I like or enjoy gay. Which, yes, is admittedly very stupid, but...

I actually can't come up with a justification for that.

But I can see why people are offended by it - associating an insult with a certain sexuality is very degrading, and I certainly do not use the word "gay" to describe anything beside around my close friends who it doesn't bother. And while it does upset me a small amount when I hear people using it as a derogatory term, there's not much I can do.

 

[twocows]

To who? Certainly not to the person who just happens to walk into a conversation to hear those words spoken and not be a party to the overall conversation. We keep forgetting that we don't live in a bubble. Our public conversations are just that, public, they can be heard by anyone within hearing distance. Should we then not be responsible to refrain from using language which we know can and does cause offense?

That depends. If the conversation was loud enough that other people could hear it without trying, then yes, they should watch what they say. If someone was deliberately eavesdropping on a conversation that was relatively quiet, then it's none of their business and I think it's unfair to get upset over it.

Words, regardless of the context, are not normally offensive to those they do not apply.

That doesn't really apply to anything I said. The point was that getting offended over something because of your own misunderstanding isn't really fair, nor is getting upset at someone because of it. My belief is that what the speaker intends with what he or she says is what matters. If someone misinterprets, I think that's their problem; they should ask for clarification.

 

[Dakotah]

The point was that getting offended over something because of your own misunderstanding isn't really fair, nor is getting upset at someone because of it. My belief is that what the speaker intends with what he or she says is what matters. If someone misinterprets, I think that's their problem; they should ask for clarification.

Sorry, from my perspective, the intent is irrelevant to me. Those words should never be used, at all. And I let people know it too.

 

[Keiran]

My belief is that what the speaker intends with what he or she says is what matters. If someone misinterprets, I think that's their problem; they should ask for clarification.

I disagree. One needs to have an understanding of how their choice of words affect those that hear them. Imagine if a school teacher chose to regularly say "gay" as a synonym for "bad", each time they say it it becomes increasingly normalized for the children. We now have a classroom of children that connect bad to gay. If millions of parents are like that school teacher, we now have millions of children that connect bad to gay; and we end up right where we are today. When I tell someone to not use a slur, I'm not doing it because they hurt my feelings (because they didn't). I want them to stop using words that cause societal harm to groups of people. I want them to stop normalizing lazy, harmful language.

 

[Trev]

I disagree. One needs to have an understanding of how their choice of words affect those that hear them. Imagine if a school teacher chose to regularly say "gay" as a synonym for "bad", each time they say it it becomes increasingly normalized for the children. We now have a classroom of children that connect bad to gay. If millions of parents are like that school teacher, we now have millions of children that connect bad to gay; and we end up right where we are today. When I tell someone to not use a slur, I'm not doing it because they hurt my feelings (because they didn't). I want them to stop using words that cause societal harm to groups of people. I want them to stop normalizing lazy, harmful language.

I agree completely with this except that teachers are technically prohibited from using that language for this very reason, so the odds of this happening are unlikely. However, this does raise a good point. If kids were taught to act more professionally and to treat situations like they would have to in the outside world, it'd help the issue of lazy language immensely. I've been in professional-like situations before, and even using words like "stupid" is frowned up, let alone using "gay" in a negative context.