The Hardships of Game Making: A Report

[Mooshykris]

I think the main issue raised here is actually an important one, so to dismiss it as nonsense is quite ludicrous.

Mooshykris definitely brought to light an important issue that some games on here don't actually get enough support to possibly be successful regardless of the effort put in. Taking his G/S as an example, he's learned to script which is a lot more than some people on here have bothered to do as they lie in wait to be spoonfed another starter kit.

However, he's not a superhuman and can't do it alone. But he can't seem to generate enough interest to acquire the help and support of others - for example he needs gfx artists and tileset makers because that's not his personal strength.

Taking Acanthite as another example, I don't have a clue how to script which is the IMPORTANT part, but I can put together pretty screenshots and a nice story. However I wouldn't be able to finish the game with just that. But I've been lucky enough to get a team together, even if only attracted by pretty pictures at first. And maybe I had a bit of carry over from my fake card fame. But is that really fair - does my ability as an artist of sorts mean I have a god-given right to be successful on this scene when my RGSS knowledge - the power of creating the game's core - is mediocre at best? No.

Look at how many games have been completed. Hmmm...

Are the "big" projects like CoL and Treasures (not to single you out guys - there's just not a lot going on so far as I can tell!) having as much effort pumped into them these days? Or are the developers just trying to disguise the complete lack of progress observed recently? Yet they still attract a lot of attention.

I think this scene is a great one to be involved with, and it's sad to see that not many people are managing to bring their visions completely to life.

Maybe there aren't enough resources?
Or would that just be more spoonfeeding?

IMO developers need to work together in some regards. I'm not suggesting that all developers share everything, but a little help for some of the more promising projects might be healthy.
Teamwork is vital to the success of this scene.

It's just difficult to make that happen.

I don't think in making this thread Mooshykris was implying that "OMG I NEED MORE GOOD REPLIES LOLZ". This is a COMMON effect observed in the fangame making scene, and I for one am not foolish enough to dismiss it as irrelevant or nonsense, Raubie.

Thank you Fangking! I'm glad I have some backup. It seems that no on

And to answer some of these things you said: So as to NOT look like I'm being spoonfed everything, I scrapped the Starter Kit completley, with a mind set to do this (semi)alone.

I still can't script my own scripts yet, but I've learned enough to take a script and double it's power, thus making my own custom script, which is benefiting many people on RMXP.


Now, my reply to what Fangking said on this is:

I think most people here aren't reading this very well, because you're obviously misinterpreting what I've said:

You see, I already told my-self that sentence (Not with the exact same words). But now, my game, Pokemon Gale, with help or not, it will be finished.

HAVE A GOAL!:classic:

Hmmmmmmm, get a goal... I think I've had one for a while, thank you.

dude, why would this be a bad comment:

"The game is ok, not too bad and not too great. What you could do to improve it is making it look more like pokémon games, resizing the screen to 480x320, inserting Pokémon font and the font-shadow script. That way it would look much better than it is now.

Anyway, keep it up and welcome again"

I never said it was bad, I was comparing it to other threads' replies.

A part of creating a game and showing it to the world is taking critics. When you're not able to handle constructive criticism then don't show your game at all. Personally I don't see why you created this thread, to whine about your games getting negative comments? Deal with it, learn from it, and don't stop trying.

Now, I have to say, this is very original, I've only heard this one like...every time I try to bring this subject to light. If I didn't accept criticizm, I would'nt have left PC for 6 months to try to become a better game maker.

Side note from this: Do I have to hear this constantly?! This kind of thing is why I made this thread. I'm tired of hearing that same line, it's ridiculous!

Also:
"I have many times before, "given up," only to run back later looking like a fool. I've changes since then, but the situation still isn't improving (if anything, it's getting worse)."
If you don't want to create a game then don't do so. Nobody is forcing you.

Hmmmmmmmmm... Has it ever occured to you that I WANT TO MAKE THIS GAME?!

Also:
"The game looks great..."
Why is this a negative comment again?

Read above... and read the entire reply too!

Also:
"I have devoted every free minute I have to the development of Pokemon GS, and still, my work goes unappreciated! I've tried and tried again, each time failing. And each time I fail, it becomes harder to try again. Now I've reached a point where I can't go on much longer."
If you would take some critics and improve your game here and there you it probably would go appreciated. And again: Devoted every free minute to it? Why for god's sake? If you don't want to then don't!

Where on earth is your mind?!

When did I ever say I didn't want to make this game?!!!!! And why "for god's sake" would I spend every free minute of my time working on GS?!!!! Maybe because that's what I enjoy doing, "for god's sake!!!"

If you only want to hear comments like: OMG I luv ur game!!eleven! Wer dit u g3t the gr4fixzors? Then don't post your game at all. I find it rather sad that you posted this nonsense in the first place...

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha, so this is just nonsense, well... If you think so, that's your problem not mine.

Mooshykris

 

[raubie]

"The first issue I am into view is the lack many good replies. I have yet to have a game thread with more than 3-5 consecutive good replies. And I've had almost no replies over the course of my fangames, that wasn't criticizing something about the game (constructive or not)!"
Sorry but to me it looks like you're not happy about the (in my opinion) constructive criticism you got about your game, not comparing it to other threads.

"Hmmmmmmmmm... Has it ever occured to you that I WANT TO MAKE THIS GAME?!"
Heh, ok, you just made it look like you were making it for other people. If you want to make this game then do so. But if people don't like then why would you care? It's your game, you're making it for yourself and not for others.

"Now, I have to say, this is very original, I've only heard this one like...every time I try to bring this subject to light. If I didn't accept criticizm, I would'nt have left PC for 6 months to try to become a better game maker."
I'm just telling you again just to make sure you know it, I'm not trying to be original I want to make sure you know it ;) Also, it's good that you're trying/tried to improve yourself, I'm asuming you're taking peoples critics and learning from them? In that case forget most of my previous post.

Also, I think that a small issue on your game could be that there are allready a lot of g/s remakes. You have to show people why the would want to play your game. A custom battle system just won't do. I think the main reason why acathinte is so popular is because of the new pokemon and the new region. A new land with new creatures is more fun than an old region with old pokemon right?

Anyways, even though I'm not to fond of this topic I wish you best of luck with your game (if you're still working on it) and games you will create in the future. :)

 

[DarkDoom3000]

dude... people are trying to help.
ya know...

making a game can be hard, who gives a poopie about other peoples copmments. if you know you can do it. do it!
if they comment omethin good then...good..
if they comment something bad, then try to improve.

like the resulotion thingy, mabye make options for changing it...or make a small res version and a large res version

 

[PokeCreator_09]

A part of creating a game and showing it to the world is taking critics.
When you're not able to handle constructive criticism then don't show your game at all. Personally I don't see why you created this thread, to whine about your games getting negative comments? Deal with it, learn from it, and don't stop trying.

If you only want to hear comments like: OMG I luv ur game!!eleven! Wer dit u g3t the gr4fixzors? Then don't post your game at all. I find it rather sad that you posted this nonsense in the first place...

He's not whining and he doesn't want the little comments that says, wow, this game pwns..and stuff like that. He wants criticism, but he also wants to know what to improve on. Half the people replying to is thread complain about the font and screen size, but they don't tell him anything else to improve on. It's opkay to get comments like that and it makes you feel good about your game,but every now and then you need an in-depth opinion.

 

[Mooshykris]

He's not whining and he doesn't want the little comments that says, wow, this game pwns..and stuff like that. He wants criticism, but he also wants to know what to improve on. Half the people replying to is thread complain about the font and screen size, but they don't tell him anything else to improve on. It's opkay to get comments like that and it makes you feel good about your game,but every now and then you need an in-depth opinion.

Thank you Poke_Creator_09! It's good to have some support on when others who support you aren't!

Anyways, reguarding:

OMG I luv ur game!!eleven! Wer dit u g3t the gr4fixzors?

You do know that if anyone said something like that, I'd report them as a spammer.

Mooshykris

 

[raubie]

You do know that if anyone said something like that, I'd report them as a spammer.

Mooshykris

Yeah, I'd do the same. <_<
Anyways, It seems that I have taken your intentions on making this thread wrong. It just looked like you were complaining about not getting any good replies while you were getting them and it kinda looked like you were making the game for others. Sorry for my immature behaviour. Guess we all one day learn from our mistakes, today I learn from mine xD. Even though I (still) think comparing (fan) games (and the comments they get ;)) to each other is a little bit odd.
Also, I think you could've claryfied things a little bit better. (perhaps it's better to say somewhere that you are not complaining about the comments you receive, incase another dumbass like me makes the same mistake)
Once more, I apologize.
Also "OMG I luv ur game!!eleven! Wer dit u g3t the gr4fixzors?" Was an example. I don't expect
anyone to post crap like that ;)

Keep your head up.

Raubie

 

[Fangking Omega]

I think the main issue we need to consider now is how to improve things for developers and make it easier for them to move ahead.

 

[DeM0nFiRe]

You do need a team - one person alone can't do it as I discovered.

Uhh.. this isn't necessarily true. I am making a pokemon starter kit followed by a pokemon game by myself and I find it's easier to work on this kind of thing alone. I mean with systems this complicated, you need ta make absolutely sure they all work together. I suppose you could use a team to make the story and pokemon but i wouldn't call that a need.

 

[Legacy]

However, he's not a superhuman and can't do it alone. But he can't seem to generate enough interest to acquire the help and support of others - for example he needs gfx artists and tileset makers because that's not his personal strength.

I disagree there. And with some other things you've mentioned in that post too.

The only true quality a game developer needs is the ability to create. Whether that be through RGSS, or any other scripting language, or through the use of event coding. If you can do that then you are on the right track to getting a completed game.

However, if you can't, you're in big trouble. I am fiercely opposed to so called "game creators" that can't actually make things happen other than build maps or create tilesets and other graphics. There are more than enough graphics out there to use to create a Pokemon game. No question. All you really need to do if graphic design isn't your strong point is to find the existing resources and use them.

If you are no good with graphics, don't focus on the graphics. Spend your time and energy on the programming. Actually do work to show off, do things that aren't common in the other fan games to make your game stand out.

Also, if you are good at graphics but no good at programming, then learn to program. Learn to rely on yourself to make progress otherwise you are doomed to fail. Try to argue otherwise if you want, but when you are relying on somebody else for 80% of your game's work then you are just waiting to be let down because, not only do you have to make sure that you're motivation and commitment don't fade, you also have to hope that their's doesn't either. And that's hard to do.

As to real advice for everyone. Just keep working and keep learning. With game development, you do need to have a certain creativity and vision to see what makes a good and unique game. But, you also need to have the knowledge and the skill to bring that vision to life. And you can only do that by learning and practicing.

 

[Lihinel]

Uhh.. this isn't necessarily true. I am making a pokemon starter kit followed by a pokemon game by myself and I find it's easier to work on this kind of thing alone. I mean with systems this complicated, you need ta make absolutely sure they all work together. I suppose you could use a team to make the story and pokemon but i wouldn't call that a need.

I think he already mentioned before, that this statement is more about the graphics than the scripting. (the post where he speaks about the members of his team and that there is only one person for Ruby, while there are a lot more doing all that graphical stuff, fakemon and so on)

And about your "starter kit", its not done jet. And as far as I know, no real finished pkmn starterkid exists. (at least not for rm2k/3, xp and sphere) Those who are used by most people lack many features and some where not made that well. The real problem imo is not the missing Ruby skill of its creators, but the fact, that they didnt spend enought time to see how all the needed classes for all the features must work together.

 

[Fangking Omega]

Fair cop I suppose. Perhaps I will specify... to make a GOOD project, you'll need a team. I'm yet to meet someone who excels in all areas; scripting and event making, graphics (all fields), mapping, story writing, original Pokémon concepts (if applicable), sound... with so many things to consider, I've found that a team is needed. While I'm sure some people might MANAGE by themselves on all fronts if they're well rounded, it's probably better to have the best people for each job to get the best quality out of the project.

Working alone isn't easy. As a developer, if I'm working on the project and realise I need something, if I was working alone as I once upon a time did, I'd have to leave what I was working on to sort out this other thing that I need. With a team on hand, tasks of the sort can be delegated and things get done efficiently. Also there are things that my level of skill in certain fields can't cater for. Someone else on the team however is awesome at it! A developer could have a great vision, but can't bring out the best of it alone.

 

[DeM0nFiRe]

I think he already mentioned before, that this statement is more about the graphics than the scripting. (the post where he speaks about the members of his team and that there is only one person for Ruby, while there are a lot more doing all that graphical stuff, fakemon and so on)

And about your "starter kit", its not done jet. And as far as I know, no real finished pkmn starterkid exists. (at least not for rm2k/3, xp and sphere) Those who are used by most people lack many features and some where not made that well. The real problem imo is not the missing Ruby skill of its creators, but the fact, that they didnt spend enought time to see how all the needed classes for all the features must work together.

Actually the problem wasn't in not enough time spent, it was in the approach. It seemed to me that people were taking a harder approach because easier approaches seem too easy. But I am taking an easier approach and I am nearing completion of the ever elusive battle system and I have encountered no problems at all. In fact, the classes that my kit uses can work with anything if I'm not mistaken. I don't use the SDK but, in answer to your question you had for me Mooshykris, I beleive it will be compatible.
Anyway, back on the last topic, I suppose your right Fangking, It is easier to make a game like this with a team, but wether it is necessary or not depends on the focus and skill of the maker. I mean you don't have to be uber skillful to make pokemon sprites, but it can be frustrating to make 150+ pokemon sprites. So I suppose that a team would increase the chance of a game being finished, based mainly on the principle of reducing boredom.

 

[Fangking Omega]

I see and appreciate what you're saying about working alone, but here's where I can't agree with you. I'm still to discover a maker with the FULL set of skills ;)

Thinking about how many games get discontinued and disappear, I would say with a helping of certainty that nobody will get far without assistance. It's just my opinion of course, but I think full quality is nigh impossible to achieve alone. And you raised the point that boredom is an issue. Working alone inevitably will produce boredom. This is where the game stalls, and other people lose interest too.

Teams don't NEED to be big. But you consider Treasures - that's a team effort, albeit stagnated by a lack of progress and a lack of a game engine. Think about CoL - people think Booda when you say that game's name, but not a lot of people realise he's got a small team helping him out on some aspects. I would probably say that these have been the biggest projects on the scene, inspirational to other developers (me included, I started because I saw CoL, and Treasures more or less started this scene in the first place), they have some real quality and plenty of exposure to the fangaming community.

I also think that in OFFICIAL games, they're put out by teams rather than individuals.

So... my advice to game makers?
Do build up a team, even if small at first.
Plan and present your game well - this will attract more help
Your game will then presumably progress faster and will have more quality, resulting in more popularity and exposure.

It also becomes a social thing to an extent and you do make some good friends within the team. It keeps the interest and good vibe flowing, and you're engaging with people on a worldwide scale in many cases.

 

[DeM0nFiRe]

I see and appreciate what you're saying about working alone, but here's where I can't agree with you. I'm still to discover a maker with the FULL set of skills

hee hee, alright then, I'll show you a maker with a full set of skills when I make my Pokemon Aura game after the starter kit. I mean, like I said, I have nothing against a team, It's just that, to me, a pokemon game doesn't seem large scale enough to bother with a team. I mean, I'm in a company right now that I will probably use for my team for one of my projects that for now is actually named Massive Scale RPG or [MRPG]

 

[Crazy Weavile]

Another awful thing: 90% percent of my replies are saying I need a spriter. Ugh... I need a bit MORE than that tidbit of knowledge. Personaly, I'll never give up on T/I, though. I'm beyond stubborn, and one day it WILL be finished.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

ah, at least bad replies are betta than no replies cause ur project would be dea if ya got none!
(trust me i know, and its true no reply=no true updates=game going deep down the forum... where no-bodi looks=DEAD)