The Rainbow Connection [LGBTS Club]

[Shining Raichu]

Sorry guys, I've had a terribad busy couple of days lol. I'M HERE NOW.

Welcome to dango989, Nakuzami and TheWeirdBadger!

Where do you think homophobia stems from?

Fear of the unknown, like Freaky said. But more specifically I think homophobia comes from a couple of places. I could ramble on and on about all the things I think are involved in it, but I think the biggest one is related to gender and identity.

The stereotypical man (I'm using a man as an example because that's the slice of the population where I've noticed the most homophobia) builds an identity based on a lot of things, including being attracted to women. When you have men who could be attracted to him, it conflicts with his own sense of identity. In his view of the world women are the desired object and a man is the one who does the desiring. For a man to be the object of another man's desire is the same as making him a woman (in the homophobe's mind). The homophobic man equates this to an attack on his masculinity because homosexual attraction is a foreign concept to him and he therefore fears, and imagines, it happening toward him. He then needs to prove his masculinity and the stereotypical ways a man does this are through acts of violence or asserting power over a woman. That means that he'll act hostile to a gay man because he simultaneously sees the gay man as a male (and therefore rival worthy of fighting) and because he sees him as feminine and therefore below him and deserving of oppression.

I don't think it's humanly possible to put it more eloquently than this. Everybody, pretend I said it :P

I'd say it comes from how people were brought up.

What you say is true, though I personally don't accept it. I am way past accepting upbringing as an excuse for homophobia, or bigotry of any kind. I was raised in a house that is fairly racist and I've somehow managed to transcend that... if you have a brain, then that's all the equipment you need to know better. Nobody has any reasonable excuse to simply be a mouthpiece for their parents' views.

I swear I've already posted that exact thing somewhere else in this thread lol. But yeah, if you're a homophobe, you'd better come up with a damn good reason. Never tell me that it's because of the way you were raised and think that that makes it OK.

EDIT: Holy crap haha, Legally Blonde was on TV and it was distracting me so I got ninja'd three times in the time it took me to write this post lmao.

 

[-Jared-]

First off, what Scarf said, again. xD

What you say is true, though I personally don't accept it. I am way past accepting upbringing as an excuse for homophobia, or bigotry of any kind. I was raised in a house that is fairly racist and I've somehow managed to transcend that... if you have a brain, then that's all the equipment you need to know better. Nobody has any reasonable excuse to simply be a mouthpiece for their parents' views.

I swear I've already posted that exact thing somewhere else in this thread lol. But yeah, if you're a homophobe, you'd better come up with a damn good reason. Never tell me that it's because of the way you were raised and think that that makes it OK.

Wow, Ineffable~, you're on a ro- Oh wait, it's Andy...

Anyways, I pretty much agree with this, although I feel a little bad for people who have this as their reason, as they grew up with parents that obviously were fairly intolerant people. :\ Makes it kinda hard to shd your upbringing. But still, do it anyways. :\

 

[Esper]

It's funny that the man in question doesn't consider the possibility that women can "desire" men. :P

Well, he does. But he only thinks in terms of himself and doesn't want to think about women he doesn't find attractive so he only thinks about women he desires. So in the end the only times he can accept women having sexual desires is when he's already desired them first.

EDIT: Holy crap haha, Legally Blonde was on TV and it was distracting me so I got ninja'd three times in the time it took me to write this post lmao.

Just kidding. :3 Pay me no mind.

 

[Alice]

Speaking of dreams (I know it's been a little bit since we were talking about that, but w/e) I had a dream last night that I was a girl, and was turning into a guy. I don't really remember anything else, other than being really sad when I woke up (I was still mostly asleep though... you know how when you wake up and don't realize your dream was a dream, so you react as if it was real. That kind of thing.) That said, I also dreamed that Mario had a giant robot, and was using its tractor beam to collect stars, instead of playing the game, so I don't think it means anything. rofl

 

[Ineffable~]

I feel like due to the slothful activity lately, it would be helpful to introduce a few new topics:

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
(Non-LGBTI allies can answer how long they spent not accepting LGBT people, if at all.)

Who was the first person of the same sex that you had a crush on or were clearly attracted to? Did the feelings for that person ever get more serious than that? What was the experience like, and what was the person like?
(Trans people can answer by saying the first person of their target gender whose body/priveleges they envied, or whatever; allies can say the first time they really had direct contact with LGBT issues/people.)

EDIT: Celebrities totally count.

Speaking of dreams (I know it's been a little bit since we were talking about that, but w/e) I had a dream last night that I was a girl, and was turning into a guy. I don't really remember anything else, other than being really sad when I woke up

. . . I wish to study you.

 

[Alice]

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
(Non-LGBTI allies can answer how long they spent not accepting LGBT people, if at all.)

About a week. lol
As for not accepting LGBT people, about 18 years.

Who was the first person of the same sex that you had a crush on or were clearly attracted to? Did the feelings for that person ever get more serious than that? What was the experience like, and what was the person like?

Well, I guess Genki Sudo, but he's a celebrity, so I dunno if he counts. He is easily the most amazing person on this planet though. Look him up if you don't know him.

 

[-Jared-]

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
Well, there was never any denial, just misunderstanding things. I first understand, "Hey, I am gay" when I was in 8th grade, and on the annual 8th grade trip we went to a water park, so there were shirtless guys and I was like "Huh" to them, and not to the girls. :\

As for self-loathing, AGES. Like, from when I first realized it, to probably when my brother found out this year, and I am 20. I mean, it wasn't ALL self-hate, I was pretty much like "I can't change who I am" but there was still a lot of "Damn it God, why?" going on. But when my brother found out and was all like "Ok, so?" I was like "I should be that way too." SO I am. xD

Who was the first person of the same sex that you had a crush on or were clearly attracted to? Did the feelings for that person ever get more serious than that? What was the experience like, and what was the person like?
Um, other than generally attracted to someone, there was this one guy my senior year in my wood shop class that I had a crush on. He had a good personality and was cute. :3 But alas, I was in the closet, and as far as i know, he was probably straight, so nothing happened.

I have another question, that I thought of when talking about wood shop.

For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond?
This could apply to straight people as well, of course. xD

For me, in Wood Shop, there was this one kid who constantly would ask me if I was gay because I had said I hadn't had a girlfriend yet, and I was a senior. It was like he couldn't understand a straight person NOT dating in high school. On the one hand, it was super annoying because I hated lying and saying "No." And doing so repeatedly was even worse. >__<

On the other hand, it was slightly flattering because I could take it as "Hey, you'd be a catch!" xD

 

[Alice]

For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond?
This could apply to straight people as well, of course. xD

I don't recall anyone ever mentioning my sexuality in any way actually. Some of my friends knew that I liked a girl named Allison, and the rest were all nerds and didn't have girlfriends either, so I don't think anyone had any reason to question it. lol

 

[Nakuzami]

Welcome to dango989, Nakuzami and TheWeirdBadger!



I don't think it's humanly possible to put it more eloquently than this. Everybody, pretend I said it :P

Thanks, and will do!
Ohmigawd, you're a genius Shining Raichu! However did you manage to dig your claws so deep into the human psyche and sum it up so perfectly? Lol xD

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
(Non-LGBTI allies can answer how long they spent not accepting LGBT people, if at all.)

Uh... I have no idea... I don't think I ever really denied it, but was confused for a while? Not really denial... I guess I'm denying denial? Yes, that makes sense. xD
I'm not really sure if I hated myself for it. . . I know I've thought about how it's slightly annoying, because it's kinda a big deal compared to being straight. . . and you never know how people will react (or, at least, it can be hard to tell how they'd react sometimes) So. . . never really, I guess.

Who was the first person of the same sex that you had a crush on or were clearly attracted to? Did the feelings for that person ever get more serious than that? What was the experience like, and what was the person like?

Er... can't say I've had an actual crush on someone, beyond thinking they're "cute" but I also think girls are cute, and I'm not. . . I know I don't like them like that, lol.

For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond?
This could apply to straight people as well, of course. xD

. . . My sister (well, technically step-sister, but I can't remember a time when she wasn't so she's basically mah sister. :P). She asks me regularly. She is already kinda convinced. Oh well, guess that makes that part easier? Lol...

. . . I kinda want to see how long it'll take people I know to see my posts here. :P Nobody spoil it~! Lol

 

[TheWeirdBadger]

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?

I never really denied it or hated myself for it. When the idea was planted in my mind that I could possibly be gay, I kind of just spent the night wrapping my head around it.. From a Christian perspective, I never felt convicted about it, but I knew that according to my 'religion' it was definitely a no no. I did spend some time studying the Bible and praying about it, but one day I felt God's presence descend upon me, and I could feel Him telling me basically that it was okay and that he loved me regardless. Ever since then I have never had a problem with being gay.

Who was the first person of the same sex that you had a crush on or were clearly attracted to? Did the feelings for that person ever get more serious than that? What was the experience like, and what was the person like?

About a year ago, when I was a Junior, I had a crush on a Senior. It never became anything too creepy though. Unfortunately for me, he was straight. He never found out that I had a crush on him, but when he did find out that I was gay, he turned into a total jerk. That kind of soured any feelings I may have had for him, and it totally ruined whatever type of friendship we had. I think that my first crush has so far been my strongest crush. All of the guys I've dated up to now haven't quite measured up.

 

[Esper]

Hey, everyone. Important thing. Read.

November 20th is Transgender Day of Remembrance. It's a day to remember those people who've died from trans-phobic violence in the past year. I'm not normally really interested in promoting specific days for specific causes because I think it's better to press your cause every day, but I'm going to press this day because it's a segue for me to talk about something I want to talk about. I normally don't like to point out divisions within the group we here call LGBTQIPAAOS, but there are some different problems that those of us not represented by an L, G, or B have to deal with and I don't just mean finding clothes that fit us. There's still a lot of trans-specific hate and discrimination in the world, even some from the gay community where some feel we're an extra burden holding them back from widespread acceptance, that we shouldn't be grouped together, that we reinforce gender stereotypes.

I don't mean that this is a problem with our group at PC because I don't think I've read anything like that here, but it's a problem in the wider world. In any case I'll get off my soapbox soon, but I'd like to ask some questions just so I can get a feel for what everyone's thoughts are.

Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?

Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way?

Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)?

I would like it if people could be as honest with their answers as they can. I'll do my best not to get too angry if I don't like your answers. :p

~*~​

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
I spent a lot of time in denial and confusion and uncertainty about being trans. Ever since I was little I knew I was a little different, but I didn't really understand what it meant exactly. When I was old enough to understand I was just too worried about being seen as different to come to terms with it so I just kept it hidden. I'm still dealing with the leftovers of my self-hatred, too. So, yay~ baggage.

Who was the first person of the same sex that you had a crush on or were clearly attracted to? Did the feelings for that person ever get more serious than that? What was the experience like, and what was the person like?
Well, the first person that I crushed on who made me realize that I wasn't a normal, straight, cisgendered boy was a friend I had at the beginning of high school. It never got any further, though it did last for a while. He was a lot like me in several ways, a little nerdy and so on. When I found out he was gay it kind of made me hopeful that my crushing could go on to something more, even though it wouldn't have worked because I would only be attractive to him when I wasn't happy with my own appearance. Oh, I thought that was so tragic. lol

 

[Shining Raichu]

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?

Exactly 0.27 seconds. I know I've told this story before, but I was in the changing rooms after PE and guys were in there shirtless. Suddenly I had a... shall we say, bodily reaction?... and my thought process was literally "Huh. Alright then..." and from then on I was gay and I never really gave it too much further thought.


For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond?

Yeah, I was asked a few times if I was gay, by people who I guess picked up on some little things I didn't know I was doing. I always responded with a nonchalant "no". Even though I was comfortable with it myself, I wasn't comfortable with other people knowing. The interesting thing was, it was only partly out of fear of their reaction. The other part was me being creeped out by the idea of anybody imagining me in any sort of sexual context.

 

[Ineffable~]

Time for me to jump into the active conversation. :3

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
I've said this before, but I never really had denial. As for self-hate, I pretty much hated myself for the first fifteen years of my life but I stopped it (for lack of a better term lmao) about 9-18 months ago. I guess it was pretty easy for me to admit it but not as easy for me to accept it as an okay thing. :p

Who was the first person of the same sex that you had a crush on or were clearly attracted to? Did the feelings for that person ever get more serious than that? What was the experience like, and what was the person like?
I'll answer this by saying that I often had huge envy for random girls around the school. The first one that I actually realised I wanted to look like her was this short blonde "cutie pie". Her name was Maggie . . . no relation lol. A few people apparently think I "stole her name" but I swear I didn't. :P I had a few before that (and a few after that) but I think she was the first girl I actively knew I envied.

For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond?
I can effectively answer this question.
Before I knew I was a girl, the question often came up as to whether I was gay (i.e. a gay male). I am flamboyant, girly, and I often say inappropriate sexual things to guys. I am honestly surprised the question didn't come up more times than it did. My most frequent answers were "wouldn't you like to know? ;)", "oh hellz yeah", and "well, in a sense". xD
Even beyond being asked, pokejungle once in fact insisted I was gay and wouldn't believe me no matter how many times I said "nope lol".


Old memories are weird. :P

 

[Alice]

Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?
I don't know whether they should be grouped together or not, as they really aren't the same thing, but one side definitely shouldn't be left behind, while the other becomes accepted, so I think it's fine that they are.

Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way?
No, I don't think so. You should be who you want to be, I don't think stereotypes should matter one way or the other in that.

Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)?
Not that I can recall. I may have made fun of them as a kid, because... well, I was a kid, and we did that kind of stuff, but that's it.

 

[Shining Raichu]

Freaky, I don't think you meant anything malicious with that post, but it was probably at the very least bad timing for such a joke...

Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?

I've learned a lot about the differences between sexual orientation and gender identity just in my time of being part of this club. They used to be grouped together in my mind and I think the fact that we're known as the "LGBT" community does a lot toward that. Speaking now, I think they should be grouped together somewhat because sexual orientation can play a role in confusing a person's gender identity and for those people the issues would need to be dealt with in one package, but one size doesn't fit all - a lot of people only suffer from problems associated with one of the concepts and not both.

I've only ever dealt with sexual orientation, so as much as I've learned I couldn't pretend to completely understand the problems faced by a transgender person, or even a gay person who suffers from gender identity issues. Though as far as the gay rights movement is concerned, I think we're all shooting for the same goal, so if the transgendered people are happy to be associated with us then I'm more than happy to have them as campaigning partners in the fight for equality.

Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way?

I must say, I've never really thought about this. I don't know that they do anything for gender stereotypes either way. Gender stereotypes are perpetuated by those who are so obsessed with being seen a certain way that they need to follow the stereotypes in order to feel comfortable with themselves. If transgendered people do this, it's not all that different - no better or worse - than a macho straight man crushing a beer can on his forehead.

Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)?

Not to my recollection. Honestly, before joining this club, the transgender community was simply not on my radar. I didn't know any transgendered people (or if I did, I was oblivious to it) and I never gave the issue much thought. So I was not presented with any opportunities to either react to transphobic behaviour or partake in it myself. I honestly don't know how I might have reacted, though being gay myself and not particularly invested in showing off stereotypical male behaviour as a denial tool, I think it would have been fairly hypocritical of me to judge or discriminate against the transgender community. Though as I'm a non-confrontational person, I'm not sure I would have had the courage to do anything about it if I saw it either. Now that I'm a more confident person in general, though, things might be different.

 

[-Jared-]

Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?
I think really, that if all of us fighting together for our rights mean all of us get our rights, why not? Besides, we all have plenty in common, so why exclude them? If we did, I don't think it would help either group out any at all.

Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way?
Well, it depends on the individual. :\ If an individual is TRYING to act based on certain gender-specific stereotypes, than they would be reinforcing them. If not, no. So, as a whole, I think it's hard to say whether or not transgendered people do ANYTHING for stereotypes. It is all pretty much individual in nature.

Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)?
Other than talking once with an online friend ages agoi, and since joining this club, I have never interracted or witnessed ANY transgendered people at all. :\ If I saw any anti trans attitudes, you bet I would be all up in their grills. (Did I just say that I did just say that. >__>)

 

[Shining Raichu]

Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?
I think really, that if all of us fighting together for our rights mean all of us get our rights, why not? Besides, we all have plenty in common, so why exclude them? If we did, I don't think it would help either group out any at all.

This is actually a good point that I hadn't thought of. We'd have a more synergistic effect united than divided. In the fight for equal rights, it's better that we all stick together because we're stronger that way.

 

[Ineffable~]

Oh goodness Scarf thank you for posting these questions. xD

Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?
Yes, I think they should. I will always say the same thing to people who say that sexual orientation and gender identity "don't have anything to do with each other": They don't have to. We are two completely distinct groups working towards a similar purpose. We are both marginalised or looked down on by society for similar reasons. We both often have to deal with the omnipresent issue of coming out. We both are thought of as "not following gender rules." We also both want society to accept us and it can only help if we work together to this purpose despite any trivial differences or arguments we have.
Not to mention, the majority of trans people either are LGB have experienced being looked upon as LGB at one point. I'm a lesbian that is also trans and this isn't at all uncommon among trans women (especially compared to the ratio of lesbians as far as cis women go). Then when you look at trans women that are only attracted to men, consider the fact that many or most of them have presented as gay at times or been seen as gay due to having a boyfriend and not passing. Alternatively, a lot of us (including me, as I mentioned) have been mistaken for gay men due to gay stereotypes, whereas many trans men are mistaken for lesbians (plaid button-down shirts lol).

Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way?
In a purely stereotypical way, kind of both. However, I couldn't care less. If you let stereotypes or bigoted people affect how you act in any way, that's the very moment that you've let them win.

Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)?
If ever I've made transphobic or homophobic remarks (which I know for sure I have at least a couple times), it's only because of the complete lack of understanding I had at the time.

Gender stereotypes are perpetuated by those who are so obsessed with being seen a certain way that they need to follow the stereotypes in order to feel comfortable with themselves. If transgendered people do this, it's not all that different - no better or worse - than a macho straight man crushing a beer can on his forehead.

This is so true. I love you for saying this.

No hetero.

Okay guys. I think I should become trans because all the cute guys are gay.

Let me just say I hope you're kidding.

EDIT: I started typing the whole synergy idea before Andy did, so I get copyright.

 

[Esper]

[SIZE="a"]Okay guys. I think I should become trans because all the cute guys are gay.[/SIZE]

fml

I must say, I've never really thought about this. I don't know that they do anything for gender stereotypes either way. Gender stereotypes are perpetuated by those who are so obsessed with being seen a certain way that they need to follow the stereotypes in order to feel comfortable with themselves. If transgendered people do this, it's not all that different - no better or worse - than a macho straight man crushing a beer can on his forehead.

And that's one of the criticisms I've read (and thankfully never heard in person) about transgender people that really bothers me. That we're just like beer-can-crushing macho men. The argument that if there aren't any real differences between men and women then a trans person is resorting to (and reinforcing) stereotypes because if there aren't any differences then why does a person need to dress such-and-such a way and so on. "Women can wear pants so why do you need to wear dresses?" That kind of thing. It's like people completely forget that, hey, this is my decision and my life.

 

[Ineffable~]

"Women can wear pants so why do you need to wear dresses?"

This was pretty much my sister's theme song for the first three months after I came out to her. Things like "what bothers me is you want to be stereotypically feminine" and somehow making it a bad thing that I wish to wear skirts and nail polish and eyeliner. Never mind that she wears nail polish, and in the Summer it's impossible to ever see her wearing anything but a skirt/dress.

It's really not about being able to get by on wearing pants (which I could--that's not my whole thing). It's that I am a girl and thus if there's a group of people that should be allowed to wear skirts, I should be part of that group regardless of whether I want to or not.

It's not even about clothes though. It's such a firmly rooted part of your identity that's so impossible to explain to a cis person. I feel pain as a male in society; it literally makes me sad every time someone uses male pronouns to refer to me. Therefore I wish for things to be otherwise. I shouldn't even need a reason other than that. (Well, I shouldn't need a reason at all.)