Dark Azelf
☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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I have noticed even more so lately in uu, that there is a problem with Rain Dance teams and a few other players have said it to me too.
I feel the basic problem is that the standard Taunt + Rain Dance Crobat/Electrode (more so the former as it is used more) lead on a rain dance team is fitting the following : -
Now as you know if they set up Stealth Rock/Spiking hazard or something which is seen in every tier isnt really a problem as people cope with it, its no big deal and if you say something setting up SR is a problem rethink your game choice, thanks.
Anyways Crobat and Electrode pretty much guarantee a set of Rain Dance unless you use something that has scarf Taunt which really is not practical. In addition the two aformentioned pokemon shut off foe strategies with Taunt and with ease due to their immense speed. We are talking almost the dual screen deoxys s of uu and look what tier that is in now. Just like deoxys speed did in ou with its immense speed and dual screens to set up things, Crobat and Electrode do the same thing but for swift swimmers and other things that can prosper in the rain. Doubling swift swimmers speed automatically makes them difficult to deal with often outspeeding pretty much every revenge killer, check and scarfer and the boost in their STAB move often makes it easy to overwhelm walls or counters.
Now for those of you who battle in UU, you know how HARD Rain Dance teams hit, Crobat/Electrode grant the swift swimmers a GUARANTEED ability activation + 50% boost to their STAB move as explained above due to Crobat and Electrode outspeeding everything in the tier bar scarfers. Those of you who dont battle in uu i will give you flavor of how hard these teams hit.
Kabutops and Qwilfish have few things that stop them in the rain and can often OHKO so called "counters" after a Swords Dance. Things such as Slowbro and Milotic fall in a single hit to SD LO Kabutops X-Scissor and Stone Edge respectively with Stealth Rock up. Qwilfish still strips around 80% from these so called counters too with a SD LO Poison Jab.
On the special side of things if you dont have a Chansey, expect to be in for a world of pain. Omastar, Gorebyss and Ludicolo hit extremely hard from the special side of things and the former two have the highest special attack of any water type not counting ubers. Clefable, Hypno etc are all at risk from getting 2HKO'd in the rain. Grass types also take a good 70% from Ice Beams from the two aformentioned pokes so if they switch into Surf they lose.
In addition, Ludicolo can also hit from both ends of the spectrum so is very unpredictable. Swords Dance Ludicolo is no joke and can often prey on the weaker defense of common switch ins such as Chansey etc. Ludicolo can also make it even harder for your rain dance "check" with Leech Seed too which wears it down thus making it easier for the rest of said rain dance teams threats to overwhelm a singe counter.
Lets see, there are four good ways to deal with all Rain Dance threats in UU which are the following :-
+Golduck:- Due to its ability Cloud Nine, its arguably the best rain dance counter right? Well no, this loses to Ludicolo a staple on all rain dance teams from both ends of the spectrum.
+Toxicroak:- This is probably the best universal rain dance counter thanks to its dry skin. However it MUST use a special set with Vacuum Wave to beat Kabutops or it is outsped and OHKO'd with SD LO Stone Edge despite its resistances and it also doesnt like Ice Beams that much (2hko'd most of the time by a Gorebyss Ice Beam, not to mention that this is without a Life Orb, with a Life Orb it does ~67% on average). Also:-
Yeah..
+Poliwrath:- Loses to Ludicolo and the defensive sets often cant even 2hko Kabutops with Brick Break and so is often prone to getting out damaged (aka Kabutops has a high chance to 2HKO standard 252 HP / 92 DEF Impish Poliwrath with Stone Edge) It also often struggles with other Rain Dance threats too.
+Quagsire:- Again loses to Ludicolo and the rest of the special rain dancers due to the omnipresent Hidden power Grass.
So one (Special Toxicroak) is pretty much the only near 100% counter/check to all Rain Dance threats and even then that sometimes isnt enough as good players will often overwhelm a single Rain Dance counter via wearing it down so the rest of the team can take advantage of this, its pretty ridiculous that you shouldnt have to dedicate more than one team slot to deal with this (one to deal with the special side and one for the physical). Its kind of overcentralizing.
Now you may say "But Rain Dance isnt used much", well no it isnt (its still pretty common though). However if i remind some people that when Wobbuffet was banned he was around #45 in usage barely scraping OU and yet he still became a suspect and thus banned, so thats kind of irrelevant.
What i propose is a suspect test here on pc for banning Rain in UU i feel that this will balance uu more and in addition an obligatory discussion for said problem should take place in this thread too. So yeah opinions ?
VANCE WILL POST SOME CALCS.
I feel the basic problem is that the standard Taunt + Rain Dance Crobat/Electrode (more so the former as it is used more) lead on a rain dance team is fitting the following : -
Smogon said:
Now as you know if they set up Stealth Rock/Spiking hazard or something which is seen in every tier isnt really a problem as people cope with it, its no big deal and if you say something setting up SR is a problem rethink your game choice, thanks.
Anyways Crobat and Electrode pretty much guarantee a set of Rain Dance unless you use something that has scarf Taunt which really is not practical. In addition the two aformentioned pokemon shut off foe strategies with Taunt and with ease due to their immense speed. We are talking almost the dual screen deoxys s of uu and look what tier that is in now. Just like deoxys speed did in ou with its immense speed and dual screens to set up things, Crobat and Electrode do the same thing but for swift swimmers and other things that can prosper in the rain. Doubling swift swimmers speed automatically makes them difficult to deal with often outspeeding pretty much every revenge killer, check and scarfer and the boost in their STAB move often makes it easy to overwhelm walls or counters.
Now for those of you who battle in UU, you know how HARD Rain Dance teams hit, Crobat/Electrode grant the swift swimmers a GUARANTEED ability activation + 50% boost to their STAB move as explained above due to Crobat and Electrode outspeeding everything in the tier bar scarfers. Those of you who dont battle in uu i will give you flavor of how hard these teams hit.
Kabutops and Qwilfish have few things that stop them in the rain and can often OHKO so called "counters" after a Swords Dance. Things such as Slowbro and Milotic fall in a single hit to SD LO Kabutops X-Scissor and Stone Edge respectively with Stealth Rock up. Qwilfish still strips around 80% from these so called counters too with a SD LO Poison Jab.
On the special side of things if you dont have a Chansey, expect to be in for a world of pain. Omastar, Gorebyss and Ludicolo hit extremely hard from the special side of things and the former two have the highest special attack of any water type not counting ubers. Clefable, Hypno etc are all at risk from getting 2HKO'd in the rain. Grass types also take a good 70% from Ice Beams from the two aformentioned pokes so if they switch into Surf they lose.
In addition, Ludicolo can also hit from both ends of the spectrum so is very unpredictable. Swords Dance Ludicolo is no joke and can often prey on the weaker defense of common switch ins such as Chansey etc. Ludicolo can also make it even harder for your rain dance "check" with Leech Seed too which wears it down thus making it easier for the rest of said rain dance teams threats to overwhelm a singe counter.
Lets see, there are four good ways to deal with all Rain Dance threats in UU which are the following :-
+Golduck:- Due to its ability Cloud Nine, its arguably the best rain dance counter right? Well no, this loses to Ludicolo a staple on all rain dance teams from both ends of the spectrum.
+Toxicroak:- This is probably the best universal rain dance counter thanks to its dry skin. However it MUST use a special set with Vacuum Wave to beat Kabutops or it is outsped and OHKO'd with SD LO Stone Edge despite its resistances and it also doesnt like Ice Beams that much (2hko'd most of the time by a Gorebyss Ice Beam, not to mention that this is without a Life Orb, with a Life Orb it does ~67% on average). Also:-
Yeah..
+Poliwrath:- Loses to Ludicolo and the defensive sets often cant even 2hko Kabutops with Brick Break and so is often prone to getting out damaged (aka Kabutops has a high chance to 2HKO standard 252 HP / 92 DEF Impish Poliwrath with Stone Edge) It also often struggles with other Rain Dance threats too.
+Quagsire:- Again loses to Ludicolo and the rest of the special rain dancers due to the omnipresent Hidden power Grass.
So one (Special Toxicroak) is pretty much the only near 100% counter/check to all Rain Dance threats and even then that sometimes isnt enough as good players will often overwhelm a single Rain Dance counter via wearing it down so the rest of the team can take advantage of this, its pretty ridiculous that you shouldnt have to dedicate more than one team slot to deal with this (one to deal with the special side and one for the physical). Its kind of overcentralizing.
Now you may say "But Rain Dance isnt used much", well no it isnt (its still pretty common though). However if i remind some people that when Wobbuffet was banned he was around #45 in usage barely scraping OU and yet he still became a suspect and thus banned, so thats kind of irrelevant.
What i propose is a suspect test here on pc for banning Rain in UU i feel that this will balance uu more and in addition an obligatory discussion for said problem should take place in this thread too. So yeah opinions ?
VANCE WILL POST SOME CALCS.
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