Why Salamence Does NOT Deserve A Suspect Test (OU RMT)

[Skip Shot]

Introduction

Smogon's Policy Review committee recently opened a thread debating why Salamence deserved a Suspect Test. This inspired me to rant on for a very long time about how Salamence does not need a Suspect Test and how Smogon's PR committee was just theorymoning :/ . This in turn inspired me to create a team built around one thing that could use a Salamence locked into Outrage as set up fodder- Agiligross.

Team Strategy

This team is a pure offensive team that relies on great synergy to blow through opponents. After Jirachi sets up Stealth Rock or cripples something, I can either bring in Scizor to scout for the next Pokemon that comes in, or bring in one of the four members of my offensive core. This offensive core consists of Pokemon that all work great with each other because they beat each others' counters- Gyarados, Tyranitar, Jolteon, and Metagross.

Building the Team

Metagross was definitely going to be used on the team so he was guaranteed a spot.

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Dark Azelf recommended that I use Babiri Tar because it and Metagross beat each other's counters, so Tyranitar joined the team.

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I knew that I had to get a Ground and Fire resist then to block for Metagross, and preferably a Fighting resist for Tyranitar. I chose Gyarados because it could be a good bulky sweeper. Dark Azelf later told me that Gyarados worked well with Tar and Meta, so I stuck with him.

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I then wanted an Electric resist to block for Gyarados that could also nail bulky waters pretty easily. I also wanted something to beat Swampert, since it was a common answer to Tyranitar and Metagross. Jolteon was the obvious choice, since it could outspeed and smash through Bulky waters with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass, and it absorbed Electric attacks.

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I wanted to place a scout on the team that could U-Turn to other opponents. I went with Scizor because it could tear through things with CB U-Turn and could revenge kill a lot of weakened Pokemon with Bullet Punch.

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With the majority of the team complete, all that I needed was a lead. I didn't want to go with an anti-lead that usually didn't survive the first few turns of the match, so I chose not to use Azelf or Aerodactyl. I came across Choice Scarf Jirachi and chose it because it could do so much to differently leads- Trick on Stealth Rock then set up its own on the switch, beat Aerodactyl with Iron Head, or U-Turn to scout what comes in.

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I hope this brought some insight as to how the team works in general. Below, each member will be broken down to the last EV.

The Team

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Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Jolly Nature (+ Spa, - Spa)
Ability: Serene Grace
252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 HP

*bulbagarden.net image removed* Iron Head
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Stealth Rock
*bulbagarden.net image removed* U-Turn
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Trick

What Jirachi can do for this team makes it such a valuable lead. Usually, it will either use Iron Head or Trick at the start of the battle, depending on what its facing. Iron Head usually goes to Aerodactyl and Azelf, and Trick goes to bulky leads that prefer to set up Stealth Rock the first turn. After I Trick, I also get a free turn to set up Stealth Rock if I Tricked them while they used Stealth Rock, which is pretty cool. U-Turn is used for scouting for leads that I usually can't beat without Iron Head's flinchhax, which includes Lead Infernape. Jirachi can also come back later in the battle in these cases and either set up Stealth Rock if it didn't get the change, or revenge kill with Iron Head.

Scizor @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature (+ Atk, - Spa)
Ability: Techinician
252 Atk/ 28 Spe/ 224 HP

*bulbagarden.net image removed* U-Turn
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Pursuit
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Bullet Punch
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Superpower

Most people tend to use Scizor as a priority revenge killer with Bullet Punch throughout the course of the battle. I prefer to play Scizor safely, so Scizor is usually spamming U-Turn throughout the duration of the battle, and rarely uses any of its other moves. Because of this, Scizor makes a great scout for the team, and allows me to bring in the sweeper of my choice and start either setting up or ramming opponents. As far as moves outside of U-Turn go, Bullet Punch can be used to revenge kill things at low health, Pursuit smacks around ScarfGar and Choiced Latias locked into a Dragon move, and Superpower nails Blissey hard.

Jolteon @ Life Orb
Timid Nature (+ Spe, - Atk)
Ability: Volt Absorb
252 Spa/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def

*bulbagarden.net image removed* Thunderbolt
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Hidden Power Grass
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Charge Beam
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Shadow Ball

Jolteon loves how this team works with it. It can take Electric attacks aimed at Gyarados and restore its recoil damage for Life Orb. Bulky waters love to come in on other members of the team, meaning that Jolteon can come in and threaten them out. This Jolteon also acts a lure to Swampert, OHKOing it when it comes in with Hidden Power Grass, and is a great answer to the Rotoms that love coming in on Gyarados, forcing them to die with Shadow Ball.

Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry
Adamant Nature (+Atk, - Spa)
Ability: Sand Stream
252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def

*bulbagarden.net image removed* Dragon Dance
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Stone Edge
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Crunch
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Fire Punch

Tyranitar works great with Metagross here because it rips apart most steel types that it comes across with Fire Punch, and Steel types love coming in on Meta and walling it. Tyranitar usually comes in on something that it can easily handle and force out, and use that oppurtunity to set up a Dragon Dance. Tyranitar can then sweep with its dual STAB combination of Stone Edge and Crunch. Babiri Berry is mainly for Scizor and allows Tyranitar time to OHKO it with a Fire Punch.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant Nature (+ Atk, - Spa)
Ability: Intimidate
156 HP/ 72 Atk/ 96 Def/ 184 Spe

*bulbagarden.net image removed* Dragon Dance
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Waterfall
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Taunt
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Bounce

Gyarados has been one of the most key member of this team. He lures out Pokemon that turn into Jolteon bait, shuts down slower status leads with Taunt, and uses the time that he gets from forcing out Pokemon to set up a Dragon Dance or two. Waterfall and Bounce provide STAB on Gyarados, and it works well as a combination since Bounce can paralyze Pokemon and Waterfall can then provide a paraflinch combination(not as good as Serene Grace users, but eh). Gyarados also loves it when Tyranitar removes Steel-types, since it has an easier time to set up and sweep.

Metagross @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature (+ Atk, - Spa)
Ability: Clear Body
252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 HP

*bulbagarden.net image removed* Agility
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Meteor Mash
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Ice Punch
*bulbagarden.net image removed* Earthquake

The Pokemon that this team was built from, Metagross provides a firm foundation for the team. It can take plenty of hits on the physical side thanks to its natural physical bulk, and retaliate with its monstrously powerful attacks. With all Pokemon clearing out each others' counters, Metagross finds plenty of room to set up an Agility and begin sweeping. Meteor Mash provides STAB and smacks around pretty much anything that doesn't resist it. Earthquake manhandles enemy Metagross and the occasional Heatran that switches in. Ice Punch is there for Gliscor, Salamence, and Latias, all who fall to the attack in one hit. Metagross clears out plenty of room for others to sweep. With Gliscor gone, Jolteon can sweep teams a lot easier. Tyranitar enjoys the breathing room it gets from the loss of Salamence. It keeps going on.

What Salamence?

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One of the points of this team was to show that Salamence can be easily handled in the current metagame. This team has proven time and time again in battle to be able to do this. All common forms of Salamence can be dealt with in similar ways: One of my three steel Pokemon comes in as Salamence Dragon Dances, taunting it to Outrage. Usually, Salamence will use Earthquake or Fire Blast, but Gyarados can come in and take these hits like a champ. If Salamence does decide to use Outrage, it loses its Attack boost in the process thanks to Intimidate, and Metagross can just come in while Mence is locked into Outrage and finish it off with Ice Punch. If Earthquake or Fire Blast is used, then Salamence will have to use Dragon Dance again, and a vicious cycle occurs until either the above scenario with Outrage occurs or its weak enough for Scizor to pick it off with Bullet Punch while it attempts to Dragon Dance. ​

 

[Dark Azelf]

Ice Punch is a terrible move on Meta (Gliscor, Mence and Flygon all cannot take MM's period), use Explosion or Zen.

Zen preferably would be nice, not only does it have good neutral coverage and destroys Swampert, Rotom, Zapdos and Gyrados aswell as fire/flying types all in one slot.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

You may want Rapid Spin to make sure your opponent never keeps their Rocks up. This is even more crucial with the increased usage of Stall teams who will be layering Spikes and/or T-Spikes as well as SR. Gyara in particular wants to be kept safe from SR.

DA recommended Explosion or Zen Headbutt on Metagross but ThunderPunch is also a viable option. The only two types that resist Meteor Mash are Steel and Water, and EQ+T-Punch hits them both for super-effective damage.

 

[The Roshi]

If the point of building this team was to prove that salamence doesn't deserve a suspect test -- that is to say you're building this whole team to counter one pokemon -- then doesn't that in itself show how threatening salamence is?

One of the points of this team was to show that Salamence can be easily handled in the current metagame. This team has proven time and time again in battle to be able to do this. All common forms of Salamence can be dealt with in similar ways: One of my three steel Pokemon comes in as Salamence Dragon Dances, taunting it to Outrage. Usually, Salamence will use Earthquake or Fire Blast, but Gyarados can come in and take these hits like a champ. If Salamence does decide to use Outrage, it loses its Attack boost in the process thanks to Intimidate, and Metagross can just come in while Mence is locked into Outrage and finish it off with Ice Punch. If Earthquake or Fire Blast is used, then Salamence will have to use Dragon Dance again, and a vicious cycle occurs until either the above scenario with Outrage occurs or its weak enough for Scizor to pick it off with Bullet Punch while it attempts to Dragon Dance.

You are only mentioning ways you deal with a dd mence. Until you know what set mence is, this whole plan is meaningless which is the point of the PR committee's current discussion. There are other equally devastating mence sets like specsmence and mixmence.

I don't believe you have any form of power versus magnezone who often accompanies Salamence, as he will trap your pokes and hp fire the scizor and jirachi to death, and your metagross will need some weakening but that too will fall to said magnezone.

Also I'm fairly certain that the point isn't that Salamence can't be stopped, it's that people generally lose loads of hp/pokemon before they *do* remove salamence. That consistency is way broken for the current metagame.

 

[Skip Shot]

Ice Punch is a terrible move on Meta (Gliscor, Mence and Flygon all cannot take MM's period), use Explosion or Zen.

Zen preferably would be nice, not only does it have good neutral coverage and destroys Swampert, Rotom, Zapdos and Gyrados aswell as fire/flying types all in one slot.

You may want Rapid Spin to make sure your opponent never keeps their Rocks up. This is even more crucial with the increased usage of Stall teams who will be layering Spikes and/or T-Spikes as well as SR. Gyara in particular wants to be kept safe from SR.

DA recommended Explosion or Zen Headbutt on Metagross but ThunderPunch is also a viable option. The only two types that resist Meteor Mash are Steel and Water, and EQ+T-Punch hits them both for super-effective damage.

If the point of building this team was to prove that salamence doesn't deserve a suspect test -- that is to say you're building this whole team to counter one pokemon -- then doesn't that in itself show how threatening salamence is? The team isn't being built to completely counter mence: If that were the case the team would be Zong/Hippowdon/Mamo/Weavile/Pory2/etc. This team is using common Pokemon and a team build but is not threatened in any way by Mence. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.



You are only mentioning ways you deal with a dd mence. Until you know what set mence is, this whole plan is meaningless which is the point of the PR committee's current discussion. There are other equally devastating mence sets like specsmence and mixmence. I did forget to mention the other sets, I focused on DD because it was the most common. I will post up stuff on Mix and Specs Mence however.

I don't believe you have any form of power versus magnezone who often accompanies Salamence, as he will trap your pokes and hp fire the scizor and jirachi to death, and your metagross will need some weakening but that too will fall to said magnezone.

Also I'm fairly certain that the point isn't that Salamence can't be stopped, it's that people generally lose loads of hp/pokemon before they *do* remove salamence. That consistency is way broken for the current metagame.
See above

Also some stuff from the server:

henry clay: 607 Atk vs 296 Def & 302 HP (120 Base Power): 171 - 202 (56.62% - 66.89%)

henry clay: im sorry but salazone absolutely rapes the whole thing

That means that I should make Metagross a little more bulky to help out. I'll run the standard spread from Smogon for now, which is a lot more bulky.

It also looks like I need a rapid spinner that can some way deal with Magnezone. Options and >>???