Winners and Losers 2008 Discussion

[Pokedra]

I got this idea from Snowflake on Snowflakes Archive. I will basically list Pokemon who gained something over 2008 and Pokemon who didn't do well in 2008. I'll list 3 for each category.

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*image removed*WINNER OF 2008*image removed*
Rotom had a unique typing and so-so stats but it never saw much use due to superior Pokemon like Gengar and Spiritomb. Then in Platinum, Rotom gained 4 new forms along with Hydro Pump, Leaf Storm, Overheat, Blizzard and Air-Slash. But to top that off it lost a few points in Spd and gained amazing a BST of 520 and some new better stats to boot. Not to mention immunity to Earthquake and Close Combat. Rotom will definetely be OU, it's got nice immunites and some awesome stats. Dunno what Smogon is going to make it but I think it's OU.

*image removed* RUNNER-UP*image removed*
Scizor has become one of the top most-used OU Pokemon this year. With Platinum it gained Bullet Punch. Add on Technician, Life Orb and Swords Dance and that's going to do a lot of damage.

It also has a immunity and many resistances and only one weakness. It also learns many other decent moves so it is a great Pokemon and a dangerous sweeper.

*image removed*HONOURABLE MENTION *image removed*
Kingdra was always the Pokemon with an awesome type and stats but really limited movepool. Thus it was walled by Blissey and Snorlax. In D/P it gained Draco Meteor, Signal Beam, Flash Cannon and Dragon Pulse to use. It also gained Waterfall to use with Dragon Dance. It still was BL though. Too powerful for UU, too limited for OU.

Then BAM came along Platinum and Kingdra gained Outrage to use along with Waterfall and Dragon Dance. A STAB combo resisted only by Empoleon and Shedinja. It's also got great defensevie typing and decent all-around stats and unlike other Dragon Dancers, no 4x weakness. It was enough to get Kingdra into OU.

*image removed*LOSER OF 2008*image removed*
This is my Loser of the Year. Gengar was one of the biggest threats in OU with high SpAtk and a pretty-accurate sleep move. Then Platinum drops Hypnosis's accuracy to a rather iffy 60%. This didn't help it at all.

Then Scizor comes along with Bullet Punch and SD which easily revenege kills Gengar. It has lost a lot over the year. An accuracy drop in it's best status move and a revenge killer that can easily OHKO him.

Gengar is still a great OU threat with all sorts of tricks up his sleeve but he has taken a step-back this year,


*image removed*RUNNER-UP*image removed*
My opinion? Azelf is much better. Sure old Kazam still has 20 more SpAtk and 10 more Spd. Azelf has overall better defenses and HP plus it has a better movepool and can use the elemental punches. Alakazam can Trick but Azelf also gained that.


The loss of the elemental punches really hurt it. Plus Pursuit becoming physical. He's not the monster he once was. All is not lost however Azelf doesn't get Focus Blast and old Kazam still runs a fearsome Specs set. He also has Encore which can be extremely helpful if used right.

*image removed*HONOURABLE MENTION*image removed*
Latios is just not as good as Latias in my opinion. The extra Atk an SpAtk helps it. But the defenses let it down.

Latias can survive Palkia's Spacial Rand and OHKO back. Can Latios do that? No, because it dies from Spacial Rand.

Latias can survive Metagross's CB Meteor Mash and beat it? Can Latios do that? No, it dies from Meteor Mash.

Latias can also counter Kyogre as she can 2HKO with Thunderbolt/Grass Knot while Kyogre only 3HKO. Can Latios do that? No, it get's 2HKO'ed by Ice Beam.

80/80/110 isn't sturdy enough for OU. Soul Dew helps the SpD but despite that his Defense is a paltry 195 with no EV's(who invests Def in Latios?). There are massive threats with over 400 Atk and SpAtk running around. Latias is better 80/90/130 is studier and she can still leave a hurt on many Pokemon. According to Smogon's stats. Scizor and Tyranitar see more use then it. Latios is not a bad Pokemon but it sucks in Ubers.

Feel free to discuss. Rant against my opinions but don't get too pissed. It's some friendly discussion.

 

[Anti]

I don't know why Scizor is below Kingdra when Kingdra before Outrage was still a major force. Scizor was terrible and now runs SD okay and CB very well.

But your argument about Alakazam is completely flawed. You're forgetting that Azelf gets horribly walled by Tyranitar and Heatran on many occasions, while Alakazam threatens Focus Blast. Alakazam also runs Choice Specs a lot better, and you cannot forget Encore. Sure Alakazam has no Defense, but Azelf isn't much better. I'm running low on time so I'll post this and edit in the rest.

EDIT: Basically you're ignoring what Alakazam has on Azelf which isn't a very good way to argue it. If anything, bot were hurt by Bullet Punch Scizor entering the mix.

I agree with Sya as well about Scizor and Gengar probably being the top two on each side of the spectrum. After Garchomp's ban, Gengar was pretty much going to be the number guy, but Hypnosis and the rise of Scizor really did it in, even with Trick.

Rotom's new forms are essentially different Pokemon (kind of like Shaymin and Skymin) so I don't really think they count.

I also don't agree with Dragonite being up there - it runs an insane mixed set (at least as good as Salamence's) and it can still do things Salamence can't. Salamence got better, but Dragonite didn't get worse really, so I'm not buying it. It took a hit, but it's definitely not top three when you look at Blissey, Gengar, and Tyranitar (DDTar is really not what it used to be and CBTar beating Hippowdon really isn't a big deal when it has trouble with other things now).

I also don't understand Latios very much...well, your reasons for it that is. Point is, neither of them are Metagross counters, so why does it matter? Just listing things one can beat and the other can't doesn't prove your point at all. You have to tie it together and quite frankly, not being OHKOed by CBGross isn't proving anything to me. I'm not even saying you're wrong since I don't play Ubers, but that isn't a very good justification.

 

[ABYAY]

I do admit Dragonite took a blow, but it DID gain one boost, and that is Superpower. On the mixed set, it can OHKO Blissey, while Mence always fails to. You can also not forget about its general bulk that can let it support as well.

Random note: Rotom gained 5 moves: Blizzard is the last one.

Anti makes a good point on Zam and the other Pokemon, so you might want to question their placement.

I like the idea, but I feel that we should make sure there is much agreement of the forums rather than just a single opinionated thought (Unless that was the target of this. In that point, all we can say is expect to see many arguments come up.)

 

[Syaoran]

Biggest winner: Scizor. Look at the usage list and figure it out yourself.
Biggest loser: Gengar probably. Losing 70% Hypnosis sucks, also getting revenged a lot easier now thanks to Scizor being everywhere.

 

[Pokedra]

I don't know why Scizor is below Kingdra when Kingdra before Outrage was still a major force. Scizor was terrible and now runs SD okay and CB very well.

But your argument about Alakazam is completely flawed. You're forgetting that Azelf gets horribly walled by Tyranitar and Heatran on many occasions, while Alakazam threatens Focus Blast. Alakazam also runs Choice Specs a lot better, and you cannot forget Encore. Sure Alakazam has no Defense, but Azelf isn't much better. I'm running low on time so I'll post this and edit in the rest.

EDIT: Basically you're ignoring what Alakazam has on Azelf which isn't a very good way to argue it. If anything, bot were hurt by Bullet Punch Scizor entering the mix.

I agree with Sya as well about Scizor and Gengar probably being the top two on each side of the spectrum. After Garchomp's ban, Gengar was pretty much going to be the number guy, but Hypnosis and the rise of Scizor really did it in, even with Trick.

Rotom's new forms are essentially different Pokemon (kind of like Shaymin and Skymin) so I don't really think they count.

I also don't agree with Dragonite being up there - it runs an insane mixed set (at least as good as Salamence's) and it can still do things Salamence can't. Salamence got better, but Dragonite didn't get worse really, so I'm not buying it. It took a hit, but it's definitely not top three when you look at Blissey, Gengar, and Tyranitar (DDTar is really not what it used to be and CBTar beating Hippowdon really isn't a big deal when it has trouble with other things now).

I also don't understand Latios very much...well, your reasons for it that is. Point is, neither of them are Metagross counters, so why does it matter? Just listing things one can beat and the other can't doesn't prove your point at all. You have to tie it together and quite frankly, not being OHKOed by CBGross isn't proving anything to me. I'm not even saying you're wrong since I don't play Ubers, but that isn't a very good justification.

Hmmm....I suppose I'm editing the Kazam post. The new forms are not really Rotom I guess but they are part of him like Arceus has 16 forms. I don't know why they increased his stats though. Beats me.

In Smogon's analyis of Latias. It lists many advantages that Latias has over Latios and Tyranitar and Scizor see more usgae then it.

I don't play Ubers either but I've seen a few rants on Latios being worse then Latias and to be honest his defense suck too much for Ubers. Maybe I'll change it slightly. I might actually change Dragonite to Gengar since he took a big hit over 2008 with the Hyphonis drop.

I do admit Dragonite took a blow, but it DID gain one boost, and that is Superpower. On the mixed set, it can OHKO Blissey, while Mence always fails to. You can also not forget about its general bulk that can let it support as well.

Random note: Rotom gained 5 moves: Blizzard is the last one.

Anti makes a good point on Zam and the other Pokemon, so you might want to question their placement.

I like the idea, but I feel that we should make sure there is much agreement of the forums rather than just a single opinionated thought (Unless that was the target of this. In that point, all we can say is expect to see many arguments come up.)

I'm fixing Alakazam

Biggest winner: Scizor. Look at the usage list and figure it out yourself.
Biggest loser: Gengar probably. Losing 70% Hypnosis sucks, also getting revenged a lot easier now thanks to Scizor being everywhere.

Thanks I'm changing some stuff right now.

 

[Anti]

After thinking about it some more, I'm going to lock this thread. This thread is essentially "who won/lost from Platinum changes" since DP came out even before 2008, and both DP and Platinum changes has been discussed to death countless times before, and this probably isn't going to go much further than those. Not only that, but this thread is already going against the OP's points instead of just discussing it as a whole, a mentality which isn't really good for discussion. Even with a neutral first post, this has been beaten into the ground and I don't see any need to keep something open discussing things that are common knowledge at this point. This just isn't going to go anywhere =(

Locked​