Your thoughts on alternative Mechanics

[Prof_Oatfield]

Hello, all.

I have had a bunch of ideas for alternative mechanics and ROM hacks over the years, and I think I am finally trying to put them to practice.
I am still unsure about a few of them, though. It's that type of thing that sounds cool the first time you think about it, but perhaps it only sounds cool to you, and it would be nice to work on something that other people also enjoy.
I would like to hear your thoughts on any of the following topics.

Levels
These are, many times, poorly used. Should level caps exist? What is the best level curve to follow? Also, should learnsets and evolutions be adjusted (like Pyrite does)?

I have been thinking more and more on an alternative mechanic. Have all Pokémon set to level 50 stats (the closest to the species' base stats). Then, either remove levels from the game entirely, or keep them on a smaller but rewarding scale. For the former, there must be alternative mechanisms to evolve and learn new moves (unlocked with badges, for example). For the latter, think of Pokémon going from levels 1 to 15, or so, and every level being meaningful. Example: Caterpie starts at level 1, evolves at levels 2 and 3. Butterfree learns a new move every level, from 3 onward. Starters could evolve at levels 5 and 10. Pseudo-legendaries at levels 6 and 12, or so.

IVs and EVs
If following the new level up mechanics above, these could either be removed entirely, or kept as a small bonus to incentivize training (ex: perfect IVs at level 15, zero IVs at level 1).

If you are fond of EVs, how do you feel about simplifying them? Instead of going from 0 to 252, these could go from 0 to 3 (think of them more like stars rather than points). 1 star = 84 EVs, 2 stars = 168 EVs, 3 stars = 252 EVs. You would unlock these after some meaningful event.
I suggest this because, honestly, 99% of the time people do not care for all the in-between possibilities you are offered. Most spreads are 252+252+4.

An alternative for EVs is to go back to Stat Experience (Gens I and II), but done differently. You gain experience in attacking stats every time you attack, experience in speed every time you outspeed the opponent, and experience in defenses every time you take a hit, for example. You no longer have to learn which Pokémon gives you what; training depends on what you do.

Moves
I haven't thought this through completely, yet, but I have been thinking about a move upgrade system. Like starting out with basic moves (Tackle, Scratch, Punch, Ember, Water Gun) that you can upgrade with items, levels or some other means (Tackle into Body Slam for a Normal upgrade, or Flame Charge for a Fire upgrade, or Spark for an Electric upgrade; Punch into Mach Punch for a Fighting upgrade, Fire Punch for a Fire upgrade, etc.). Not sure this would make much a difference in the end.

Move rebalancing. I feel like some people talk about rebalancing underused Pokémon a lot, but not enough about rebalancing underused moves.
Some moves deserve a Move+ version. Imagine an upgraded Aurora Beam that has a 50% or 100% chance to reduce Attack. Despite its 60 Power, it is now a more tempting and strategic choice over the ubiquitous Ice Beam or Blizzard.

PP and Stamina
This is another mechanic that I think deserves a revisit. I really do not like it when battles boil down to a single over-powered Pokémon taking down (or defending against) the opponent's whole team. As such, I propose an Energy/Stamina system. Have Pokémon tire the more they stay in battle.
This can be easily achieved by reducing PP (and restoring when appropriate, for free), or implementing something like Mana in other RPGs (I even came up with a formula to calculate stamina for each Pokémon based on its base stats).
The Energy thing deviates from traditional Pokémon a little, but could open up for creative thinking (e.g., using a powered-down version of a move because you do not have enough energy).

Stat Stages
Another measure against overuse of setups.
I feel like stat raises/decreases should be more drastic (e.g., Growl/Howl lowers/increases Attack by 2 stages, Charm/Swords Dance by 3 or 4, etc.).
In return, stat changes should decay by 1 after every turn, gravitating back to neutral.

Alternatively, they should have less of an effect in battle. Cap it at 2 or 3 stages, instead of 6.

Others
I have more ideas, regarding new rules for Gym battles and such, but this post is long as it is. Let me know if you are interested.

I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[Rilmani404]

Levels in particular... I figure they could work like crafting mechanics or epic spells in d&d 3.5 edition. You spend experience, or in this case levels, for a permanent boon. If every pokemon has a max level of 20, you could "trade away" levels in exchange for boosting your stats, your ability, a move's crit chance, etc. You'd lower your max level by 1 for each boon you take to "specialize" a 'mon. And under exceptional circumstances, perhaps you could recover a level for a 'mon at their cap. The idea is that some pokemon overspecialize in order to match up with threats "outside of their league" or, like that one Sandshrew in the first anime, overcome a weakness.

So all other mechanics could come from one overhaul of leveling.

I think that EVs could be turned into a gym-exclusive trait. I mean they'd only increase in gyms, but the improvements would remain. So you could bring an Onix back to Pewter to spar with (an expanded version of) Brock's team and his employed trainers. Oh and obviously EVs would increase far faster than they do in official games. I'm not saying EV training has to be type-exclusive when it comes to gyms, but I can imagine some sort of boon for doing things in a sensible way. And of course a player could give X item to their team during gym battles if they want to turn EVs off completely.

PP or Stamina makes sense to me and it could be a tradeoff for most fast pokemon. Speed is important in competitive pokemon. Each move will start at 100 energy. When a pokemon uses a move, they will lose a bit of energy from all of their moves (like 5), but that specific move loses 30 or so energy. Some moves will cost more or less energy, and some moves will suck away energy from an opponent, replenishing your own. I suppose energy could interact with a condition too or have a condition of its own... but that would make it more complicated. Or we could just have one positive status condition which reduces how much energy your pokemon's moves expend. Rest and sleeping in general would obviously recover move energy, or one could make a variant of rest which recovers a tiny bit of health and a lot of energy.

I reckon stat-changing moves should be linked/comboed with existing moves between battles. Growl linked with Bite. Linked moves could cost more energy or have an increased chance of missing or decrease your pokemon's evasiveness. I'm not sure what I'd change about stat stages. I could see one connecting them to status conditions, but I'm not sure what setup would make the most sense.


Thank you for posting!

 

[ThomasWinwood]

[Levels] are, many times, poorly used. Should level caps exist? What is the best level curve to follow? Also, should learnsets and evolutions be adjusted (like Pyrite does)?

I'm in favour of level caps. I see level grinding as an undesirable consequence of the way the Pokemon games are designed - in their native environment it's okay because grinding is tedious, but in a ROM hack mainly played on an emulator with easy access to a speed-up button I need something else to prevent the player from steamrolling my design. With a level cap I can ensure the player is at most on par with or slightly below the level of the next major challenge, so they have a fun time where their decisions in battle actually matter.

The best curve to follow is the one which matches the experience gain the player gets from progressing normally through the game. (Game Freak making the Experience Share always-on is a good change as a result, since it removes the number of Pokemon on your team as a variable.)

If you are fond of EVs, how do you feel about simplifying them? Instead of going from 0 to 252, these could go from 0 to 3 (think of them more like stars rather than points). 1 star = 84 EVs, 2 stars = 168 EVs, 3 stars = 252 EVs. You would unlock these after some meaningful event.

I suggest this because, honestly, 99% of the time people do not care for all the in-between possibilities you are offered. Most spreads are 252+252+4.

How about something like this: when a Pokemon gains experience in battle, it gains stat experience points equal to the base stat total of the defeated Pokemon. Around the world are NPCs who will train your Pokemon in a given stat, converting some amount of stat experience into a star. Rather than merely being equivalent to a number of EVs (and hence a number of stat points at level 100) star rating corresponds to a multiplier to the Pokemon's unmodified stat. A Pokemon with five stars distributed among its stats is "fully trained" and cannot gain stat experience or be trained any further.

I feel like stat raises/decreases should be more drastic (e.g., Growl/Howl lowers/increases Attack by 2 stages, Charm/Swords Dance by 3 or 4, etc.). In return, stat changes should decay by 1 after every turn, gravitating back to neutral.

Alternatively, they should have less of an effect in battle. Cap it at 2 or 3 stages, instead of 6.

I thought about making buffing moves work a bit more like in other RPGs. Rather than Swords Dance simply changing a hidden stat from 0 to 2, you gain a temporary effect which grants you +2 to Attack for so many turns. You can only have one or two such effects at a time, so spamming a move like Swords Dance is less effective.

I like your idea here, though - it's more elegant and requires less coding for a ROM hack. Reducing the cap from ±6 to ±3 or ±4 would curtail spam.

 

[mgriffin]

Levels
Think of Pokémon going from levels 1 to 15, or so, and every level being meaningful. Example: Caterpie starts at level 1, evolves at levels 2 and 3. Butterfree learns a new move every level, from 3 onward. Starters could evolve at levels 5 and 10. Pseudo-legendaries at levels 6 and 12, or so.

I like this a lot :)

I had a similar idea about compressing down to levels 1-10, and then every time you level up you get to pick one of three semi-random moves to learn. I say semi-random, because some moves will make other moves more/less likely; e.g. Swords Dance makes physical moves more likely to appear in the next set, Sunny Day makes Solar Beam more likely, or an attack makes other attacks of the same type less likely. I have a small demo for Venusaur on replit.com (click Run at the top, then type numbers + return in the console at the bottom)

 

[Meister_anon~Master_o f_None]

Anything can be done well, as long as proper thought has been put into it, imo
level caps aren't ever really a necessity, they're just something we can do for added challenge or to make players follow our intent,
and I don't like the idea of artificially limiting growth since there's no way to logically explain it, which is why I prefer soft caps.

Like, you can level the pokemon all you want, but after a while if you don't progress i.e get badges, they will stop listening to you.
As they've grown while you as a trainer haven't.


I'd like to change battle mechanics, but I'm not yet sure how, people seem to get tired of the core battle loop,
when it comes to raising pokemon etc. So I'm wondering if there aren't ways to take concepts
from other games like smt or other jrpgs to make it more engaging.

 

[Prof_Oatfield]

Thanks for all the replies so far! I knew I would get to hear some cool ideas from you. :)

Levels in particular (...) If every pokemon has a max level of 20, you could "trade away" levels in exchange for boosting your stats, your ability, a move's crit chance, etc.

I had a similar idea about compressing down to levels 1-10, and then every time you level up you get to pick one of three semi-random moves to learn.

Sounds like talent trees in other games. I like it! And that is more or less where I was going with the idea of move upgrades.

I have a small demo for Venusaur on replit.com (click Run at the top, then type numbers + return in the console at the bottom)

Cool! I see there is a bit of RNG, but I still ended up with a somewhat decent set. Sometimes I had to select 0, because the moves I already had were better.

EVs could be turned into a gym-exclusive trait. I mean they'd only increase in gyms, but the improvements would remain.

when a Pokemon gains experience in battle, it gains stat experience points (...). Around the world are NPCs who will train your Pokemon in a given stat, converting some amount of stat experience into (...) a multiplier to the Pokemon's unmodified stat.

I say we combine both ideas. It makes sense for the training NPCs to be at Gyms. Maybe you do not need to go there all the time, and simply unlock the ability to train some kinds of Pokémon, or to train Pokémon in a specific aspect.
After some fine-tuning with the numbers, the multipliers should not be too much of a problem. We have multipliers from Natures, after all.

I thought about making buffing moves work a bit more like in other RPGs. Rather than Swords Dance simply changing a hidden stat from 0 to 2, you gain a temporary effect which grants you +2 to Attack for so many turns.

Yes! That is what I would like to see as well. I enjoyed games like Bravely Default, in which you normally only have access to +1 or +2 effects for N turns. Some special events give you something akin to +3, but it is harder to come by.
In this case, effects like Howl or Dragon Dance could be the +1 or +2, while effects like Swords Dance (uncommon, more specialized) could provide the +3.

PP or Stamina makes sense to me and it could be a tradeoff for most fast pokemon. (...) Rest and sleeping in general would obviously recover move energy.

That was my idea too. Also, switching out should provide time to recover some energy. This basically shuts off strategies of setup and full sweep, but, combined with the changes to stat stages above, you should still be able to do massive damage with a single Pokémon. Just not beat a full team of six in one go.

I'm wondering if there aren't ways to take concepts from other games like smt or other jrpgs to make it more engaging.

Sure, there's plenty of stuff. I liked Monster Hunter: Stories, recently. The battle system is not as complex as Pokémon, but the trainer actually participates in battle, you are not sitting on the sidelines, shouting commands. And the monsters help you in the overworld.
Also, the move speed/priority system could be reworked, so that turn order is more dynamic. In many games your speed depends on the action you choose; some attacks are naturally slower. In Pokémon, you could add the move speed to your speed stat, so that, for example, a Charizard going for an Earthquake might actually be slower than a Torkoal shooting an Ember.

I am really enjoying this discussion so far!

 

[Rilmani404]

Sure, there's plenty of stuff. I liked Monster Hunter: Stories, recently. The battle system is not as complex as Pokémon, but the trainer actually participates in battle, you are not sitting on the sidelines, shouting commands. And the monsters help you in the overworld.
Also, the move speed/priority system could be reworked, so that turn order is more dynamic. In many games your speed depends on the action you choose; some attacks are naturally slower. In Pokémon, you could add the move speed to your speed stat, so that, for example, a Charizard going for an Earthquake might actually be slower than a Torkoal shooting an Ember.

I am really enjoying this discussion so far!

I have an idea for what a trainer could contribute. We'd increase the capabilities of pokeballs. We all remember games with touch screens, allowing you to pick up creatures by their scruff? Basically you'd point your pokeball at your 'mon to lift it or nudge it to the side at a critical moment. With good aim, you could also counter an opponent's attempts to zap their own 'mon for similar help dodging. This could also be expanded to include withdrawing a pokemon for half a second and then releasing it elsewhere on the battlefield, but I feel like that could be disorienting (or too big of a change). We could also include expendable items that can be plugged into the pokeball to expand the level of precision with which you could aid your 'mon- for example the ability to release forking red beams to nudge multiple legs at once orrrr help pull your pokemon's horns out of a Wrap-like effect.

Using your pokeball laser on pokemon owned by other trainers could drain a bar of energy, either affecting your ability to help your partner evade or decreasing the stamina/energy of the connected pokemon. Actually... Maybe you don't have to use the pokeball of the pokemon which is out and battling. You could use another team member's ball and their energy (PP energy or pokeball energy) to aid the currently-battling pokemon.

 

[Prof_Oatfield]

I have an idea for what a trainer could contribute. (...)

It is an interesting idea. It adds some utility to the Pokéball concept, besides storing your Pokémon.
However, I feel it might be hard to convey/implement in more traditional ROM hacks. Perhaps for DS or 3DS games, using the touch screen, as you say. Or perhaps for fan games made from scratch.

On the topic of items, though, if you follow (or have tried) any kind of challenge run, it is often the case that people forbid themselves of using items in battle.
This makes it so that the ITEM menu is useless in the battle menu. I have been thinking about a replacement for it.

Instead of using items, you could have another command menu (besides the FIGHT menu), called TACTICS, or something along those lines.
The idea is that your Pokémon would not use a proper move that turn, but would adopt a different posture on the battlefield.
For example, Defend would replenish some move PP and have you take slightly less damage than normal (e.g., a single-turn Defense+1).
This should be weaker than a defensive move like Endure or Protect, otherwise it would just be a 5th move slot.

Other examples (depending on the battlefield and Pokémon) could be Burrow (the first turn of Dig, on ground battlefields), Flight (the first turn of Fly) or Dive (on water battlefields). This would let your Pokémon possibly escape damage and would add further value to Earthquake, Thunder, etc.
Using certain moves on the following turn would make the Pokémon resurface again.
If you want to take it a step further, have some Normal-type physical contact moves (e.g. Headbutt) convert to the type of the active tactic (e.g., Flying if you were in mid-air).
This is one idea that I like in terms of fantasy, but would probably need a lot of tuning to be balanced.

 

[soulzzii]

i think it would be cool to see a change on the battle mechanics, the one we have right now isn't necessary bad but, i see why people think it can get boring fast, one of the reasons people like PMD is because it has different battle mechanics.