Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

Counterbliss is almost never seen, so it would be impractical to make a set that counters a Pokémon you are almost certainly not going to meet. And even if you did, what's to say that Bliss has countered, and is on low health, that your opponent brings in a faster Pokemon to KO it before it has chance to Softboiled off the damage? Plus, you can't KO all your counters with it because when you've used it once, baibai suprise.

Blueberry said:

Okay listen. I fully support Garchomp being uber. Why? Well, here a few reasons why its counters don't do all that well in OU:

Ice-Types are hindered in OU. Stealth Rock makes it difficult for them to switch in and Garchomp usually carries a powerful Fire-type attack (Swords-Danced Fire Fang, Fire Blast, etc.).Even Skar, or it's counters, can't switch in. They can barely survive the first hit that they switch in on, amd the next hit, it's over for them

Non Ice-type Pokemon need to reach a certain Special Attack number to OHKO it with Ice Beam / Ice Shard / etc. This takes away EV points from other stats that would otherwise benefit the Pokemon. Thus, having to alter your EV spread to counter one Pokemon is overcentralizing the metagame.For example, only a CB Donphan can actually beat it with Ice Shard. Don't forget, that's IF it hits with it when Chomp is in a Sandstorm.

Blissey on the otherhand is easily OHKO'd to 2HKO'd by a great deal of Physical Pokemon. Thus, it's easy to counter.

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And to add to this Sand Veil makes even Hippoedon a dangerous thing to counter.

You proved yourself a new form of rookie with that last comment. Focus Blast from a Nasty Plot Raichu can 2HKO Blissey. A well predicted Focus Punch just about OHKO's BLissey, or leaves it in range for even his T-bolt to take out. This all just showing you how you need to actually do some reasurch. Once you accused Chu of being hacked, you proved how much you need to learn.

Counter Biss only has that surprise ONCE. Once we know that it has Counter, we can easily work around it. CounterBliss is setup fodder, even weaker too Taunt, and it STILL doesn't guarentee that it could even survive the hit to use Counter. If that is hindering your team, you need some revisions.

Blueberry said:

Okay listen. I fully support Garchomp being uber. Why? Well, here a few reasons why its counters don't do all that well in OU:

Ice-Types are hindered in OU. Stealth Rock makes it difficult for them to switch in and Garchomp usually carries a powerful Fire-type attack (Swords-Danced Fire Fang, Fire Blast, etc.).

Non Ice-type Pokemon need to reach a certain Special Attack number to OHKO it with Ice Beam / Ice Shard / etc. This takes away EV points from other stats that would otherwise benefit the Pokemon. Thus, having to alter your EV spread to counter one Pokemon is overcentralizing the metagame.

Blissey on the otherhand is easily OHKO'd to 2HKO'd by a great deal of Physical Pokemon. Thus, it's easy to counter.

Raichu can OHKO with a Focus Punch. Tada. So it's not hacked. Now come up with some solid facts that actually support that Garchomp belongs in OU that can't be countered what has been said. This a movement being discussed throughout the entire Pokemon community, so don't think it's only a PC thing.

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I used the Netbattle calculator, it says that an Adamant Max Attack Raichu cannot kill a Bold Max defence Min HP Blissey. So sorry, your Raichu will lose to Blissey.

And Blissey is 2HKOed by alot of physical Pokemon. They are OHKOed by her Counter.

Serious, Garchomp is not hard to take down. Even my Froslass will own him.

sims796 said:

And to add to this Sand Veil makes even Hippoedon a dangerous thing to counter.

You proved yourself a new form of rookie with that last comment. Focus Blast from a Nasty Plot Raichu can 2HKO Blissey.

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Doesn't Focus Blast have a higher chance of missing than an Ice Beam Against Garchomp in a Sandstorm? Isn't using Focus Blast a Dangerous thing as well according to your own logics?

And don't forget T-Wave, Paralyzed Porgygon-Z is pretty much a dead one. :-(

You just aren't looking at any facts. First off, I said 2HKO. Meaning 2 hits. Raichu with one Nasty Plot and Focus Blast will mame a Blissey switching in, and she will not survive the next hit.

Once Blissey uses Counter once, she will instantly get taken out by the next pokemon that comes up, being that she is too slow to Softboil right away. Next up, what will Lass do against Sand Veil, or even Scarf? Die? Or how about Steatl Rock? Think more.

The banning of Garchomp is for now an experiment. No one said this banning is permanent.

The Blissey in Uber argument happened years ago and it was determined then it's still easily countered enough in OU.

A counter has to be able to survive an attack on the switch in order to be considered a counter. Try switching in a Froslass on one of Garchomp's attacks.

Blueberry said:

The banning of Garchomp is for now an experiment. The Blissey in Uber argument happened years ago and it was determined then it's still easily countered enough in OU. No one said this banning is permanent. Try switching in a Froslass on one of Garchomp's attacks. A counter has to be able to survive an attack on the switch in order to be considered a counter.

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Barely surviving doesn't count, of course, and I'm looking at Skar, Zong, Forry, all oof his SLOWER counters, which are 2HKO'ed by Chomp. Meaning they switch into hit one=they lose half their health. So the next hit will ruin them before they can heal. Not to mention that it will have Stealth Rock flying all around.

Oh, and for oyur edit, there is also Focus Punch, and the fact that I was PROVING HOW A CHU CAN BEAT A BLISS. Pory doesn't need speed to counter Blissey. Seriously, if Blissey is causing you all this greif, rethink your team.

sims796 said:

You just aren't looking at any facts. First off, I said 2HKO. Meaning 2 hits. Raichu with one Nasty Plot and Focus Blast will mame a Blissey switching in, and she will not survive the next hit.

Once Blissey uses Counter once, she will instantly get taken out by the next pokemon that comes up, being that she is too slow to Softboil right away. Next up, what will Lass do against Sand Veil, or even Scarf? Die? Or how about Steatl Rock? Think more.

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Froslass can have Scarf too, you know.
And against Sand Veil it will hit 80% of the time, where Focus Blast only has 70% accuracy. So what it will do? Kill Garchomp most likely.

And for Stealth Rock there is that handy thing called Rapid Spin. Yeah, you need to waste one moveslot for Rapid Spin, just like your opponent wasted one with Stealth Rock, so what?

This was posted by Anti-pop, answering Sivver's post

Originally Posted by silver%
didnt stutter did i its not really a threat ive beaten all the chomps and have never been swept by a chomp nor never saw a chomp ko more than 2 pokemon in my party.

That proves nothing. If you would please tell me one safe switch into Garchomp I would most appreciate it...but you can't. Nobody can. Exactly why it's uber. Killing Garchomp is easy, all you do is sacrifice something and revenge kill it. Problem is, that's about as good a method as there is for stopping it.

chomp can be stoped by sashers sleepers ice atks first turn atks stalling and the list goes on i dont see the big deal on banning this pokemon because it is "has no real weaknesses" i mean i did just name like three or more there.

So tell me what happens when those sashers switch into SR or a sandstorm is up? you can't stall Garchomp either, SD Life Orb Outrage 3HKOs the best defenseive steel in the game and that's forgetting that we have the ever-trusty Fire Fang at our side.

Also, Sand Veil means you ice attack could miss. If it does, you're pretty much toast. Also, the only first turn attack that can OHKO Garchomp is Ice Shard, and there isn't one Ice Shard user that can survive the switch-in :/

its called a late game sweeper, a wall, a super effective attack. im defending chomp and i dont even use it. this is from the eyes of someone who battles it.

I don't use it either :/ That's irrelevant anyways.

You fail to see the point - The is no wall that is a safe switch into Garchomp. PERIOD. Also, to get off a supereffective attack you have to survive its attacks, and again, there isn't a pokemon in the game that is a safe switch.
sometimes it takes someone from "the outside" to look in and tell you what they see and i see no threat or possiblably unstopable pokemon. its just a land shark looking for someone to let down its guard so they can run it over

Again, how much YOU use it is irrelevant, lol. That land Shark has a very high-powered STAB move, incredible attack and very good bulky, not to mention access to SD and several threatening sets.
....think ahead of time and its not a problem. i mean send out a butterfree on a chomp.

I'm sorry to be rude, but this is just ridiculous. If you send out Butterfree to counter Garchomp you fail at competitive battling...either that or your team sucks. Also, thinking ahead of time isn't good enough.

theyre gonna laugh and say o yea im gonna ko this but neither do they no theyre the ones who are about to be stopped. wow sleep powder o look chomp cant kill you woot its no longer a threat.

Yeah, good luck surviving the switch-in and outspeeding Garchomp to sleep it, lol. Not to mention that if by some miracle you did get off sleep Powder, it could miss.
Its just the fear of getting swept that makes ppl want to ban a certain pokemon to increase theyre odds.

lol, before making such accusations I would learn something about battling before spurting out such hyperbole.

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These are points that must be considered before saying how easy it is to take out chomp.

sims796 said:

Barely surviving doesn't count, of course, and I'm looking at Skar, Zong, Forry, all oof his SLOWER counters, which are 2HKO'ed by Chomp. Meaning they switch into hit one=they lose half their health. So the next hit will ruin them before they can heal. Not to mention that it will have Stealth Rock flying all around.

Oh, and for oyur edit, there is also Focus Punch, and the fact that I was PROVING HOW A CHU CAN BEAT A BLISS. Pory doesn't need speed to counter Blissey. Seriously, if Blissey is causing you all this greif, rethink your team.

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Lol. Blissey is not causing me that much trouble. Nor does Garchomp. I am just pointing out that Garchomp is not stronger than Blissey. Garchomp is not even usable in ubers, Blissey is.

Actually I am trying to say that none of them should be uber, you are the one who has troubles with Garchomp, you are the one who should rethink your team lol.

You aren't posting any real points at all. Fist off, I mentioned Focus Blast to show that your Blissey is very easy to counter, even by a Raichu, which, like a rookie, you accused of being hacked.

Second, how will you SWITCH IN on Chomp? Froslass cannot switch it to save it's life.

Third, Bissey is offensively retarded, so it can't even hit Chu back.

Fourth, because Bliss cannot hit Chu back, it also has to eat Focus Blast (or Punch) till it dies.

Fifth, that accuracy thing only proved my point, and it isn't a real arguememnt, since Focus Blast has nothing to do with Garchomp. Focus Blast was just an exaple, ONLY ON BLISSEY. FB is not the only way to take Blissey out, it is one of many.

Sixth, (yes, I have six ways to counter your "points"), I CHOOSE to use Focus Blast, while I cannot choose an automatic Double Team.

Each and every one of your "solutions" have been contered, and are all half thought. Stealth Rock will not always get blown away from the start.

And usage in Uber doesn't mean crap. Just because it is usable in uber doesn't mean that it isn't too strong elsewhere, or weak elsewhere. Shendinja sucks in OU, but thrives in uber, as does Shiftry.

Maybe instead of spouting out bull, try to read the facts. If Chomp is already in, what are you gonna do?

Damage calculation time for the heck of it:

Damage: 253 - 297
Damage: 89.72% - 105.32%

Dragon Claw from no Swords Dance Adamant Garchomp on Timid 6 HP / 0 Defense Froslass

Damage: 315 - 371
Damage: 111.70% - 131.56%

Earthquake under same calculations

Damage: 420 - 494
Damage: 148.94% - 175.18%

Stone Edge

Damage: 377 - 444
Damage: 133.69% - 157.45%

Everyone's favorite move: Outrage

Remember, these are with 31 IVs in all stats and without a Swords Dance boost. Try switching in Froslass, the second fastest Ice-type next to Weavile.


Also, just to support sims:

Damage: 66 - 78
Damage: 25.19% - 29.77%

Ice Beam from Bold / Calm Blissey with no SAtk EVs against a 6 HP / 0 Special Defense Raichu.

How dare you, Blueberry. This is why you fail. You forgot Fire Fang, or Fire Blast! :P

Damage: 275 - 323
Damage: 97.52% - 114.54%

Fire Fang from Garchomp

Damage: 253 - 297
Damage: 89.72% - 105.32%

Fire Blast from Neutral-natured Garchomp

Damage: 227 - 267
Damage: 80.50% - 94.68%

Fire Blast from an Adamant Garchomp


There you go sims.

Alright. This should more than prove how his "counters" are easily beat. Not that Froslass was ever a counter.

I'll bring up the calcs that Tortured did, for all of his real counters.

lol Comparing Blissey to garchomp lol

WTF ?????????????
Banning Garchomp is the most stupid thing that I ever heard! And why Garchomp, and not other hard to counter Pokemon like Blissey?

FIGHTING TYPE POGEYMANZ SAY HI !! nothing can switch in on CB Garchomp or SD Garchomp, this side of Lugia , Arceus and Groudon possibly. Blissey does not over centralize the metagame. Blissey does not have a stupid broken GAME BREAKING ability and cant sweep teams.

That thing is almost unbeatable! Physical attacks just bounce right back with Counter for an instant kill!

Its really not unbeatable, Counter bliss is never seen and is bad, once i see counter im just going to Dragon Dance, SD Up, or send in my fighter so i can guarantee a kill whilst you feebly counter. Heck i can also use you as Spikeing/Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock fodder.

Also dude you must be so inexperienced, You do realize even Jirachi, Celebi, Suicune, Zapdos, even Moltres can beat it right ? Even Frikkin CM /SUB/ HP Fighting/Shadow Ball Mismagius =/. ive Even beat it with a Rest Talk Charge Beam surf Lanturn =/.

Life Orb, Focus Punch and Explosion Gengar, McGar, Tyraniboah, Infernape, Electivire, Taunt Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Mixmence and oh so many more standard sets rip it a new one. Those without Thunderwave loose to Azelf aswell. Heck even Specs Gar 2hkos it with Focus Blast.


My point being, so many pokemon can beat it, its not real.



And the damage gets Softboiled away afterward! And the Special attacks just bounce of the Sponge like nothing happened! Toxic gets cured right away by
Natural Cure / Aromatherapy!


Not if you wreck it beyond reparation. The natural Cure thing can also be said about Starmie/Celebi etc especially the latter who gets heal bell and can stall you worse than blissey with Leech Seed


Those are just a few examples of the many things that Blissey can do! Blissey is so strong, she is absolutely NOT weaker than Garchomp! And Blissey actually is usable in Ubers! Many people even use her in the ubertier!

Yes because its the best special wall in the game, your point ? Also before you make stupid assumptions about Garchomp NOT being usable in the uber tier, i suggest you research the metagame, it even rapes there, you do realize Groudon, Lugia and Arceus are about the only things in that can come in safely ?

Edit: And I know why you think that he should be uber.
Because of Sandstream making him absolutely unbeatable and because of his unbeatable 102 and because of his double Ice Weakness and so on.

No, maybe because it has no counters.

But now look at my arguments why Blissey should be uber then. Are you going to make Blissey uber too?


You dont have an argument, one thats viable anyways.

Yeah, sure, why not just make every OU Pokemon uber as well!

Lets not, because they actually have counters.


Or shall we just randomly place some strong Pokes in the uber and other Strong Pokes in the OU so that we do not have to counter that much anymore?

No, only the things that are broken and that dont have a counter.

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Really, that wasnt an argument. The only think ive learned from that post is how easily blissey is actually countered.

I suggest you find out what the definition of "broken" and "no counters" are. Blissey is not broken and has counters. Garchomp is brokes and has NO 100% sure fire counter. Now before you say "Z0mg i c4n b3at G4rch0mp w17h <Insert pokemon here>" Yes but can that pokemon switch in on all its moves? No is my answer.


Things can easily switch into bliss, look at electivire Machamp, hell even Hariyama. Ive also beat it with a Sub-Punching muk. The latter Just to show you how easy it it to beat =)


Blissey has counters, so many and things that can beat it. Garchomp doesnt. End.

sims796 said:

You aren't posting any real points at all. Fist off, I mentioned Focus Blast to show that your Blissey is very easy to counter, even by a Raichu, which, like a rookie, you accused of being hacked.

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Raichu owns Skarmory too. So Skarmbliss is an useless weak combo that should be NU or something?

And do not call people rookie when they can probably own you.

Hah, I've missed out on a wonderful convo while I've been at school haven't I?

Well then, let's get started:

So Skarmbliss is an useless weak combo that should be NU or something?

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Um, *coughnoobcough* Combos can't be NU.... [EDIT] Or any tier for that matter....

And do not call people rookie when they can probably own you.

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You only wish you could own half the people at this site. Heck, no offense to Saba or anything, but from what it looks, I have a feeling he could own you.


So Dark Azelf said it the best, there are no Pokemon in the OU/BL/UU/NU Tiers that can safely switch into Garchomp and get rid of it. However, in Ubers there are. Thus meaning Garchomp goes where it's best suited.

Most people seem to think that only Legendaries that have Omega stats go in Uber, but those people are the kind that don't know the terminology of a metagame. Those kind of people are you ._.

The REAL Shadow Chaos, get your facts straight. Your comparison to Blissey is so pathetically incorrect that Choice specs Skarmory is laughing.

Blissey is countered quite easily, make no mistake about it. Blissey doesn't pose a sweeping threat. Garchomp does. Blissey doesn't have a bunch of sets that are near impossible to counter. Garchomp does.

Also, you obviously don't know what you're talking about by your reference to the uber metagame. Garchomp's effectiveness in ubers is IRRELEVANT, As is Blissey's. OU/Uber discussion are about power and power only in the OU game strictly. The uber game is irrelevant.

Also, comparing Garchomp and Blissey on a strength level isn't even relevant. Even then, you could easily make a case that Garchomp is better than Blissey. Blissey isn't uber because the standard metagame doesn't fear it. Blissey is very very effective, but the standard metagame can handle it. Blissey has several counters. Garchomp on the other hand is so extremely difficult to counter that the standard metagame really can't handle it. Don't even play the "Garchomp is easy to beat" card, because every single Garchomp used by a good player has utterly shredded me apart...and I play with 100% defense. This should tell you something.

Also, about that totally ludicrous Focus Blast argument, you're totally taking us out of context, which only proves you have no real argument to back up your statement. When we're talking about accuracy with Garchomp, it's to counter something, so things being unreliable is important. With Focus Blast, it is just to attack things, not to hinge your hopes on countering a serious threat on it.

I'd really like to hear your response to Dark_Azelf's argument, since that about sums it up. no wonder why you ignored it...

Hint: Good luck "owning" sims, you're going to need it :)

EDIT: Ooka beat me >.>

But really, stop taking us out of context with everything we say. It's only making your already-pathetic argument even weaker. If you have a good reason to disagree, fine, but make it worth our while.

It's funny how every time OTHER THAN ME someone posts an argument tearing apart his childish logic, he ignores thier post and goes straight to me, taking what I say out of context, and proving himself a rookie even more. Mad respect for Anti & Ooka. Cool points go to Dark Azelf. A Jynx kiss goes to Blueberry, but not from me.

Ooka said:

Hah, I've missed out on a wonderful convo while I've been at school haven't I?

Well then, let's get started:



Um, *coughnoobcough* Combos can't be NU.... [EDIT] Or any tier for that matter....



You only wish you could own half the people at this site. Heck, no offense to Saba or anything, but from what it looks, I have a feeling he could own you.


Most people seem to think that only Legendaries that have Omega stats go in Uber, but those people are the kind that don't know the terminology of a metagame. Those kind of people are you ._.

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Serious, when saying about that combo I ment actually those Pokemon. Skarmory and Blissey are both OU.

And about those legendarys, yes, many of them are be uber. (Mewtwo, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Arceus etc.) But many are NOT uber(Registeel, Zapdos, Raikou, Jirachi etc.) So I do not think that a Pokemon is uber just because it is legend. I do look at the ability, stats, etc.
So no, your psychic powers failed to read my mind. And I think your psychic powers also failed to tell you how good I am before you know my team.

I bet that you also think that I never heard of IVs or EVs? And I just pick some random natures? You think that? I bet you do!