I ain't really interested in the new Pokemon shows :(

[SBaby]

Why not recognize Pokemon for what it is instead of what you think it should be, and watch the other shows when you want a more mature cartoon?

There you go again. A more serious plot =/= a more mature cartoon. Ok? Alright? Ya got that? As it is, they could keep the current Anime the same and just do a spinoff series. Why not do that? That's how alot of cartoons come about.

Nevertheless, it was canceled. You complain about me using Wikipedia for..looking up the titles and background of the show, but SatAM's article doesn't mention why it was canceled, just that it was. So you counter my saying it was canceled by...stating various facts without sourcing it.

How about going to an actual SatAM site, rather than Wikipedia?

Or go to one of a bazillion video sites and find out more about the show, and maybe, just maybe, watch an episode or two of it and decide for yourself. Nobody can change your own opinion of whether a show is good or not to you, but you can at least see it for yourself.

 

[randomspot555]

There you go again. A more serious plot =/= a more mature cartoon. Ok? Alright? Ya got that? As it is, they could keep the current Anime the same and just do a spinoff series. Why not do that? That's how alot of cartoons come about.

Because spin-offs almost always fail in the world of television. If it stays too close to the original, why watch the new one? If it differentiates, then there's no built in fan-base to watch it and they might as well have started a new show.

But you seem to be missing the point I've posted entirely. You've named half a dozen shows you like. Why should Pokemon change to fill the niche that those shows already fill? Let alone that no sensible person can justify such a drastic change.

How about going to an actual SatAM site, rather than Wikipedia?

Because I shouldn't have to prove your claims. You should do it.

but you can at least see it for yourself.

I've never argued about the quality of any of the shows. Only that they aren't in any way comparable to Pokemon and thus invalidate what you're promoting.

 

[Nina]

I gotta agree that the new show is not as good as the old one. For one just look at the creativity of all the Pokemon names of the first 151. Most of them had some cool meaning (ekans - snake, arboc - cobra, abra kadabara alakazam, etc.) I personally still watch the old ones but haven't found a justifiable reason to watch the new ones

Well, the pokemon designs don't come from the anime, they come from the games. :( If this is the biggest complaint that's pretty stupid.
Anyways, to overall though...

I'm trying to read through all the posts, but it's pretty hard.

Are we all watching the same show?
Half of you think DP is one of the best seasons with good storylines, and half of you think it's the worst season with crappy fillers and no storyline.
It's like looking at an apple and some people say it's green and some people say it's red. It's more than "this is my opinion", someone is obviously not really looking at it.

And why exactly are we comparing American cartoons with a Japanese animation that has to be conformed to be acceptable to the entire world because of it's popularity?

 

[RivalGator]

In my opinion the shows are good, but not really to the older generation. The shows that would have greatly entertained us as children was, to us, full of action and fun, but as we get older and we realize that it's really not all it was hyped up to be, we turn to more serious natured Pokemon stories, kind of like the manga, which shows a lot more and doesn't hide very much at in. In fact, it's at least 88% more violent than the show, so naturally it's better.

I think the show still has it's magic, but not to all of us who have already seen so much of it and already been through it all. It does kinda follow the same plot over and over, but usually the characters have their own personalities, which I like.

 

[Vernikova]

we turn to more serious natured Pokemon stories, kind of like the manga, which shows a lot more and doesn't hide very much at in. In fact, it's at least 88% more violent than the show, so naturally it's better.

You should read that post I made in the Pokémon manga section in the Volume 8 thread. There's no difference between the anime and Pokémon Special in terms of violence or in most ways.

 

[RivalGator]

You should read that post I made in the Pokémon manga section in the Volume 8 thread. There's no difference between the anime and Pokémon Special in terms of violence or in most ways.

Well, the way I look at it, the manga is more... I guess bluntly violent than the shows. I find in the shows that there is a lot more pointless talking than in the manga. I mean, everything I have seen so far in the manga I wouldn't dream of seeing in the shows.

I find there to be a really big difference, but that's just me and how I percieve it. I haven't seen many Beedrill hold it's point to someone's neck, never saw an Arbok get cut in half, and never saw rotting Pokemon in the show, evne the Elite Four were soooo much nicer in the anime, so I find violence pretty different in the manga, lol. Same amount, but I find it extremely different.

 

[Vernikova]

Well, the way I look at it, the manga is more... I guess bluntly violent than the shows. I find in the shows that there is a lot more pointless talking than in the manga.

Pokémon Special is much more fast paced and as a result ends up having more action occur. You'd never see the show, these days, quickly go from point A to B because it actually needs some type of pacing.

I mean, everything I have seen so far in the manga I wouldn't dream of seeing in the shows.

Are you serious? Am I being punked here or something?

I haven't seen many Beedrill hold it's point to someone's neck, never saw an Arbok get cut in half, and never saw rotting Pokemon in the show,

So? You have noticed that happens few and far in that series and those few examples are throw aways in a series that has about 31 volumes, right? They're there sure but not as many as you seem to think.

evne the Elite Four were soooo much nicer in the anime,

So what if they're nice?

so I find violence pretty different in the manga, lol. Same amount, but I find it extremely different.

Yes, those couple of panels sure do make the difference in determining violence. Might as well take that dub episode where some guy said "Hell" in Season 9 and when Lt. Surge kept screaming "God damn it!" in the Japanese version and say the anime is more mature because they swore.

 

[randomspot555]

Are we all watching the same show?
Half of you think DP is one of the best seasons with good storylines, and half of you think it's the worst season with crappy fillers and no storyline.
It's like looking at an apple and some people say it's green and some people say it's red. It's more than "this is my opinion", someone is obviously not really looking at it.

I do think Sinnoh is the best among all regions so far. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a kids' show. I'm not gonna sit down and re-watch most episodes from ANY of the regions except for the episodes with the biggest places in continuity (some of the gyms, captures/evolutions, rival battles, etc...)

 

[SBaby]

Because I shouldn't have to prove your claims. You should do it.

How can you expect me, or anyone else on this site for that matter, to accept your claim as credible when you refuse to even look at FUS or SaturdayMorningSonic, or other SatAM-based sites? You've admitted that you know nothing about the show, yet you claim that the show is a failure without even knowing a single thing about it.

So why not check out one of those sites and learn a little more about what you're trying to debate me on? Or are you just afraid to learn more about a show that you might get to like? Sure, it's not the end all be all show in existence. But it did alot of things right for its time, and it helped change the face of Saturday morning cartoons.

I'm not gonna sit down and re-watch most episodes from ANY of the regions except for the episodes with the biggest places in continuity (some of the gyms, captures/evolutions, rival battles, etc...)

I can't argue with you there. Most episodes of Pokemon are mediocre, pointless fillers that are downright boring to watch. It's only those select few episodes that are interesting. I'm just glad to see that you acknowledged it.


Unfortunately, I can't change your opinion. I can only give you suggestions and refer you to sites that you really should check out. But it's ultimately up to you whether you want to or not. I can't make you do it. So I guess this is where this particular conversation parts ways, because there really isn't much more to say that hasn't already been said. I've already told you what I think of the current series and what I think they could do to make it more interesting. Take it as you will.

 

[Jalsy]

I do think Sinnoh is the best among all regions so far. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a kids' show. I'm not gonna sit down and re-watch most episodes from ANY of the regions except for the episodes with the biggest places in continuity (some of the gyms, captures/evolutions, rival battles, etc...)

Agreed. . .although. . I do like every regions. . but actually I don't really think that sinnoh is that best. . .

Are we all watching the same show?
I guess. . (FOR ME). . just the half of it. . .there are times that its not that really good watching it over and over again. . unless it is the episode that I truly really watch often. . just in my opinion. . .

 

[Nina]

Are we all watching the same show?
I guess. . (FOR ME). . just the half of it. . .there are times that its not that really good watching it over and over again. . unless it is the episode that I truly really watch often. . just in my opinion. . .

It doesn't quite matter if you watched it more than once...
Which half? Your perception might be getting the form of said apple, but you might be missing the color.

Not directed at you now. I don't expect everyone on here to have seen every single episode of DP, I know I haven't, but they should have at least 75% of it. The point I'm making is that there are people who have watched 3 - 5 episodes and think that they can make a valid point.

But it seems we've moved on from that little point...
I still go by the fact that Saturday morning American cartoons are not really comparable to a Japanese produced animation that is globally marketed and have many many many more things to worry about in terms of censorship.
Pokemon is not really a show, it's closer to a business. If the formula works, no reason to change it.

I don't think the people who control the anime have watched SatAM either. All they know is that...
SatAM = American (different culture, different likes), Not still airing.
Pokemon = Still airing, no signs of failure, and accepted in many cultures
Thus, there is no logical reason to switch to be more like it, even if it was pretty cool. :)

 

[Harry Blue5]

The thing is, Pokémon is aimed for younger children. Admittedly the older series is better for older Pokémon fans than the new series, but for the younger kids that they were actually aiming to please may, I don't know, like the newer series better.

I have watched repeats on Youtube and I do prefer the older series, but the fact the older series could appeal to older people was purely accidental.

NOTE: The above is just my opinion.

 

[Tails2000]

I don't like how everybody is so friendly now. I remember in the old episodes, facing a gym leader was a big deal... like when sabrina theatend to imprison Ash forever, or koga nearly killing him with booby-traps. Even if they weren't deadly, they were tough... unlike the gym leaders now. Every 5 seconds its "OMG that was such a nice attack!" or "What a magnificent dodge <3 !"
Same thing with their rivals... everybody's friends (with the exception of Paul, one of the only good characters now). Even Gary, ash's arch rival since episode 1, ash's strive to be the very best... they're "now friends to the end" :/
And team rocket is self-explanatory. They're the biggest reason I hate the show now... I just got sick of them.
Well, thats just my opinion... I'm not trying to bash anyone who enjoys the show ;)

 

[randomspot555]

I don't like how everybody is so friendly now.

Compared to Ash getting pitty badges in most of his Kanto gyms? Or the hundreds of COTD who become frineds in a few hours?

**I still say that he legimately earned his badge at Brock's gym. He defeated him, but he was guilt tripped out of finishing off Onix**

I remember in the old episodes, facing a gym leader was a big deal... like when sabrina theatend to imprison Ash forever,

She was possessed.

or koga nearly killing him with booby-traps.

They weren't lethal.

Even if they weren't deadly, they were tough... unlike the gym leaders now. Every 5 seconds its "OMG that was such a nice attack!" or "What a magnificent dodge <3 !"

It's been explained numerous times that the point of a gym leader isn't to grind trainers into the dust. Otherwise what are the odds some kid with their Rattata and Starly have against someone who has battled for YEARS?

The point of a Pokemon Gym is to teach trainers and expose them to various elements of battle. It doesn't mean go EASY on them, but it does mean you need to fight on their level. While it's not explictly mentioned, I doubt the Pokemon League organizers would like it if Brock pulled out his Steelix from someone just coming from Pallet Town with their starter and Pidgey
.

Same thing with their rivals... everybody's friends (with the exception of Paul, one of the only good characters now). Even Gary, ash's arch rival since episode 1, ash's strive to be the very best... they're "now friends to the end" :/

So you dismiss the one character that disproves your statement.

Believe it or not, Gary never hated Ash. Gary is arrogant, and some of it still shows, but he's never hated Ash, nor have any of the rivals. Paul just doesn't care, period. They're RIVALS, not enemies.

(Now the revelation that Gary and Ash are childhood friends is full of holes continuity wise, but cmon, this is Pokemon, not The Watchmen)

And team rocket is self-explanatory. They're the biggest reason I hate the show now... I just got sick of them.

So the reason they were fine 6-10 years ago but suck now is?

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Compared to Ash getting pitty badges in most of his Kanto gyms? Or the hundreds of COTD who become frineds in a few hours?

**I still say that he legimately earned his badge at Brock's gym. He defeated him, but he was guilt tripped out of finishing off Onix**

If having the Gym Leaders being treated like the likes of JJM battles is the only alternative to the so-called "Pity Badge" issue, I'd rather HAVE Pity badges. Not to mention that it was IMPLIED in the games that earning the badge is NOT about defeating the Gym Leaders, it's about caring for your pokemon.

She was possessed.

Err... no, she wasn't possessed. She may have lost her emotions due to losing control of her Psychic Powers, but she certainly wasn't "possessed." If you want a Pokemon example of actual possession, look at Pikachu when he had the Red Orb.

They weren't lethal.

The fake wall certainly was, as Ash nearly died when he fell down.

It's been explained numerous times that the point of a gym leader isn't to grind trainers into the dust. Otherwise what are the odds some kid with their Rattata and Starly have against someone who has battled for YEARS?

The point of a Pokemon Gym is to teach trainers and expose them to various elements of battle. It doesn't mean go EASY on them, but it does mean you need to fight on their level. While it's not explictly mentioned, I doubt the Pokemon League organizers would like it if Brock pulled out his Steelix from someone just coming from Pallet Town with their starter and Pidgey
.

The Pokemon League organizers certainly wouldn't have liked it if the pokemon trainer who was participating in the league frequently abused his/her pokemon (and even made a proud display of it) and he only got in because the Gym Leaders gave him/her the badge because he/she beat them, either.

And anyways, one can argue that JJM is supposed to do just that as well (even if it is unintentional), yet they are still labelled as Weakling losers who can't even beat a caterpie ever since "Ash catches a Pokemon." If they can be called weaklings just for that, then Gym Leaders are complete weaklings for that as well.

Believe it or not, Gary never hated Ash. Gary is arrogant, and some of it still shows, but he's never hated Ash, nor have any of the rivals. Paul just doesn't care, period. They're RIVALS, not enemies.

(Now the revelation that Gary and Ash are childhood friends is full of holes continuity wise, but cmon, this is Pokemon, not The Watchmen)

If you're referring to the part in episode one where Gary goes "You must be Ash", and acts like they just met, it's because he had an immense ego. People with immense egos or become stars (at least as a stereotype) have often erased their friends from their memory, and act like they never met. At least, that's how I took it to mean.

So the reason they were fine 6-10 years ago but suck now is?

If we go by the fact that they had been both funny and a real threat (or as close to being a real threat as Pokemon can ever be), it's because they stopped making them threats, which makes their entire existance pointless. I mean, in Season 1, JJM had made a terrorist theft attack on a Pokemon Center, not even caring if these same pokemon they were stealing were ill, they nearly blew up a city (Porta Vista during Episode 18), among others. Now, it's more like you fight them and they go "bye bye."

 

[Nina]

If you're referring to the part in episode one where Gary goes "You must be Ash", and acts like they just met, it's because he had an immense ego. People with immense egos or become stars (at least as a stereotype) have often erased their friends from their memory, and act like they never met. At least, that's how I took it to mean.

I'm pretty sure he didn't "erase" him from his memory, as much as it was the dub not catching that he knew him through his teasing.

 

[CliveKoopa]

I like all the new episodes just as much as the old ones.

 

[randomspot555]

If having the Gym Leaders being treated like the likes of JJM battles is the only alternative to the so-called "Pity Badge" issue, I'd rather HAVE Pity badges. Not to mention that it was IMPLIED in the games that earning the badge is NOT about defeating the Gym Leaders, it's about caring for your pokemon.

I don't even know what this means.

Err... no, she wasn't possessed. She may have lost her emotions due to losing control of her Psychic Powers, but she certainly wasn't "possessed."

Missed my point. While she wasn't posessed, it's basically making a very family friendly version of psychosis. She ISN'T actually that evil, that was the entire point of the plot. She was suffering because her personalities split, manifested by the doll, and the evil personality took over.

And anyways, one can argue that JJM is supposed to do just that as well (even if it is unintentional), yet they are still labelled as Weakling losers who can't even beat a caterpie ever since "Ash catches a Pokemon." If they can be called weaklings just for that, then Gym Leaders are complete weaklings for that as well.

I'm again missing whatever point you're trying to make. JJM have been shwon to be rather competent battlers at many times. But against protagonists they have to lose, it's just how the world of kids' television works.

If you're referring to the part in episode one where Gary goes "You must be Ash", and acts like they just met, it's because he had an immense ego. People with immense egos or become stars (at least as a stereotype) have often erased their friends from their memory, and act like they never met. At least, that's how I took it to mean.

No, not really. Even in the raw, Gary and Ash don't seem to know each other, at least not to the extent the Johto League reveals it to be.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I don't even know what this means.

I'm saying that I'd rather have Pity Badges if the only other option is having the Gym Leaders lose the exact same way as JJM (Jessie James and Meowth: IE, Team Rocket) did in various episodes, especially in Ash Catches a Pokemon.

Also, it was implied in the games that the way to get a Gym Badge is not beating the Gym Leader, but rather caring for your pokemon's well being.

Missed my point. While she wasn't posessed, it's basically making a very family friendly version of psychosis. She ISN'T actually that evil, that was the entire point of the plot. She was suffering because her personalities split, manifested by the doll, and the evil personality took over.

Family-Friendly? Hardly. That exact kind of issue also appeared in Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops (Elisa and Ursula) and that wasn't even supposed to be a Kids game, never mind a family game (It's rated "M" for Mature, for reasons such as graphic violence, some swearing (not as serious as the f-word, but still.), some scenes that aren't really suitable for children, period, and the like.). And either way, you said "Possession", which implies an entirely different manner than what was shown. Trust me, what Elisa and Ursula went through was EXACTLY the same as what Sabrina went through in that episode. And I wasn't saying she was "evil", just that it should have more of that kind of drama.

I'm again missing whatever point you're trying to make. JJM have been shwon to be rather competent battlers at many times. But against protagonists they have to lose, it's just how the world of kids' television works.

Well, they should have made them lose in a far more respectable manner than, you know, losing to a pokemon that had little to no experience or was barely even alive. Even with Bowser (one of the more basic, and to a certain extent, comical, villains), Mario at least had gained enough experience to know what to do.

No, not really. Even in the raw, Gary and Ash don't seem to know each other, at least not to the extent the Johto League reveals it to be.

I wasn't even talking about the dub. I was just talking about behavior in general.

 

[Saltare.]

The old episodes were better. I loved waking up Saturday mornings to watch Pokemon. Now I forget it's even on. The new shows are dead to me. I really only watch the movies and play the games nowadays.