Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[sims796]

I say we have a free month of Wobby, and see how it affects the site.

 

[Aquilae]

Okay, a free month of Wobbuffet would not affect the site in any way or help us in any way as there is no statistics gathered to analyse, many people are against Wobbuffet anyway.

As Anti showed, Wobbuffet isn't that scary at all, the problem is people are extremely prejudiced against it. When I tried out Wobbuffet in Shoddy I either got flamed or people just forfeited in my face.
"No counters" is a non-issue, and it has already been proven without special circumstances (Yache Berry and stuff) there is no way to effectively counter some pokemon in OU.
Sweepers can set up at any time and seemingly randomly. If an SDLuke came into your paralysed Metagross and SDed up while Metagross was fully paralysed, how would you deal with it? Teams should have a way of dealing with setup sweepers.

sims, forgive me but you seem like you are disregarding the ability of a player to make smart decisions in a battle. What is clear is that Wobbuffet would increase the importance of prediction on both sides, to prevent Wobbuffet from getting any free chances.
Wobbuffet is moot without any chances to switchin, that said it would avoid sweepers like the plague, and Taunters too. The steps to counter Wobbuffet are fairly easy:

1. Confirm the presence of Wobb on the team
2. Once you have sent in a pokemon that cannot deal with Wobbuffet, just switch out on the predicted switchin
3. You could also go on the offense and lessen opportunities for Wobbuffet to get in

I agree with Anti, forcing a pokemon out is tantamount to countering it. Wobbuffet generally becomes dead weight at low health. If a Wisher or a Cleric comes in, you can predict the obvious Wobb switch / Protect.

Wobbuffet is not the monster everyone is making it out to be, it just gains abilities most people consider irritating - Encore and Shadow Tag.

 

[The REAL Shadow Chaos]

People use Heatran and Blissey a lot, two pokemon weak to your average Adamant CB Dugtrio.

Is Blissey really weak to CB Dugtrio? I doubt Duggie will kill the avarage Blissey(Bold 252 in defence) in one blow though.... And I also wonder how many Ice Beams Duggie will need before going down....

Also, Wobbuffet is strong because it can just SWITCH IN and kill.
Would you switch your Duggie into Heatrans Flamethrower? Or into any damaging attack a Heatran would use?
That is a big difference I think, Duggie can only revenge kill, while Wobby can switch in and kill.

 

[sims796]

Okay, a free month of Wobbuffet would not affect the site in any way or help us in any way as there is no statistics gathered to analyse, many people are against Wobbuffet anyway.Or, we can have controlled test to see how it would effect the site. And most importantly, the members of this site. Basically seeing what they think of it. Same thing we did with Garchomp. If that is how you feel, you can present your case to Smogon.

As Anti showed, Wobbuffet isn't that scary at all, the problem is people are extremely prejudiced against it. When I tried out Wobbuffet in Shoddy I either got flamed or people just forfeited in my face.Which may go to show their general acceptance. Present your case to all of Shoddy, then.
"No counters" is a non-issue, and it has already been proven without special circumstances (Yache Berry and stuff) there is no way to effectively counter some pokemon in OU.
Sweepers can set up at any time and seemingly randomly. If an SDLuke came into your paralysed Metagross and SDed up while Metagross was fully paralysed, how would you deal with it? Teams should have a way of dealing with setup sweepers.Wobbu can effectivly make that moot. For instance, it was very easy to make that Bellyzard, far too easy. Having a Roar-er or a hazer isn't enough.

sims, forgive me but you seem like you are disregarding the ability of a player to make smart decisions in a battle. What is clear is that Wobbuffet would increase the importance of prediction on both sides, to prevent Wobbuffet from getting any free chances. I am also not doubting the precautions that the oppossong player makes. The opposing Wobbo user can be just as smart, and you make it seem as if they can't use a Wobbo right.
Wobbuffet is moot without any chances to switchin, that said it would avoid sweepers like the plague, and Taunters too. The steps to counter Wobbuffet are fairly easy:

1. Confirm the presence of Wobb on the team
2. Once you have sent in a pokemon that cannot deal with Wobbuffet, just switch out on the predicted switchinOr, they can sense the obvious trap, and use it when it is not predicted. It also puts no effort in revenge killing. And, seeing the obvious bait, they can call you on it, and beat you down with it.
3. You could also go on the offense and lessen opportunities for Wobbuffet to get in
   Give me some prime examples, please.

I agree with Anti, forcing a pokemon out is tantamount to countering it. Wobbuffet generally becomes dead weight at low health. If a Wisher or a Cleric comes in, you can predict the obvious Wobb switch / Protect.

Wobbuffet is not the monster everyone is making it out to be, it just gains abilities most people consider irritating - Encore and Shadow Tag.

First off, Wobbo allows a free setup without much effort at all. You can't possibly use that in the same lines as paralysis. Second, & most importantly, don't take general offense when I said your better off presenting your case to Smogon. But it seems as if you'd make more of a case there. I say having a controlled period of time ot see how it would affect the site--AND THIS SITE ONLY--would do best. Or, go to Smogon, and make sure Wobbo stays where it is. If it's still OU, 'cause I see Limbo.

 

[Aquilae]

A test on PC would not determine the viability and centralisation of Wobbuffet in the OU metagame, but will instead provide opinions of the battlers in PC about what the players here think about Wobbuffet, which may be heavily biased against it.
Past cases where people wanted the banning of a pokemon to Ubers - Blissey - has shown that the opinions of the players do not necessarily mean a pokemon is viable for the metagame. For now we are trying to find out which pokemon should be placed in which tier, NOT determine response to Wobbuffet, which is about the limitations of a test on Wobbuffet in PC.

Please do not tell me to present my case on Smogon or Shoddy. I am presenting my case to PC, and being replied to with comments like these is discouraging to say the least. Dismissing me to Smogon where there are more serious players of the game, where I would get a more suitable response would not help this topic at all.

I do not believe that Wobbuffet can create a set-up that effectively - prediction and other things also give opportunity for a set-up. Using Wobbuffet also requires the same amount of skill and prediction as using a normal set-up combo. Teams should be able to deal with set-up sweepers, as the threat is omnipresent and certainly not uncounterable.

You are saying that "A player can use Wobbuffet well to negate your predictions". I feel you should stop beating around the bush. A player can use any good pokemon well with skill and similarly the opponent can counter it with the same good prediction and skill. This does not contribute at all to the argument about the viability of Wobbuffet in the OU metagame.

(I also feel that Light Ball Pikachu is BL, but that is a completely different argument.)

 

[sims796]

A test on PC would not determine the viability and centralisation of Wobbuffet in the OU metagame, but will instead provide opinions of the battlers in PC about what the players here think about Wobbuffet, which may be heavily biased against it.
Past cases where people wanted the banning of a pokemon to Ubers - Blissey - has shown that the opinions of the players do not necessarily mean a pokemon is viable for the metagame. For now we are trying to find out which pokemon should be placed in which tier, NOT determine response to Wobbuffet, which is about the limitations of a test on Wobbuffet in PC.This determinds it's usage on PC, and PC alone. A controlled test will allow us to see the effects on Wobbuffet on this site alone. If that's the case, we need to determine this on a wider scale.

Please do not tell me to present my case on Smogon or Shoddy. I am presenting my case to PC, and being replied to with comments like these is discouraging to say the least. Dismissing me to Smogon where there are more serious players of the game, where I would get a more suitable response would not help this topic at all.As I said, I wasn't telling you to leave the site, and me getting taken out of context is annoying. However, any changes would effect this site, and this site alone. You are presenting your cases with info gotten from other sites, and other battling systems, especially when the majority doesn't play shoddy. I said you would have a wider effect by presenting it in Shoddy or in Smogon. Garchomp was banned to uber on this site, & no other. Unless your goal is to get Wobbo unbanned on this site alone, or just want a simple debate.

I do not believe that Wobbuffet can create a set-up that effectively - prediction and other things also give opportunity for a set-up. Using Wobbuffet also requires the same amount of skill and prediction as using a normal set-up combo. Teams should be able to deal with set-up sweepers, as the threat is omnipresent and certainly not uncounterable.
That is my point. I am saying that it does NOT require the same amount of prediction, and it does indeed make those usual counters to set up sweepers moot.
You are saying that "A player can use Wobbuffet well to negate your predictions". I feel you should stop beating around the bush. A player can use any good pokemon well with skill and similarly the opponent can counter it with the same good prediction and skill. This does not contribute at all to the argument about the viability of Wobbuffet in the OU metagame.
What are you talking about? It is because of those abilities that Wobbo has, which makes prediction not as simple as outsmarting Dugtrio, or beating a CB user. It takes prediction straight out of it, which is what I am saying. Stop making it as I am saying that players are stupid, because I am saying that it takes little to use Wobbuffet to the best of it's abilities.
(I also feel that Light Ball Pikachu is BL, but that is a completely different argument.)
I agree.

My main point is that they make prediction skills far too easy on the opponents spectrum, and harder on the, um, non Wobbo using side. It is very simple to rush in & set up a sweeper-specifically, an SD sweeper, which worries me the most, since they can charge up faster. Simply having a PHazer isn't enough. Along with his abilities to come in & take out almost any poke. Him being able to survive hits reasonably well adds to his power, and you must try to lead him to his doom, which I don't think is enough.

Which reminds me, what does the PH stand for in PHazer?

 

[airconditioning]

I say we have a free month of Wobby, and see how it affects the site.

How would that affect anything at all, though? We've had plenty of months free of Wobby- he wasn't OU since the release of DP. Wouldn't a month free of Wobby just set everything back to the way it was before?

Which reminds me, what does the PH stand for in PHazer?

Pseudo-Hazing. It has the same effect as Haze, but it's not Haze.

 

[sims796]

How would that affect anything at all, though? We've had plenty of months free of Wobby- he wasn't OU since the release of DP. Wouldn't a month free of Wobby just set everything back to the way it was before?
Apparently, on this site, he's been known to be an uber the whole time he was open, and not accepted anywhere. There needs to be an announcement of some sort. Or, a tourney, like one being held for Lati@s. A way for us to test how it would work on this site. Quoting statistics from shoddy isn't enough.


Pseudo-Hazing. It has the same effect as Haze, but it's not Haze. Ok, what does Pseudo mean? Sorry, wasn't clear. I knew it meant forcing a switch, but the word "Pseudo makes no sense.

"The message you entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 25 characters."

Yeah.

 

[ABYAY]

Pseudo - Not actually but having the appearance of; pretended; false or spurious; sham.

So it's basically settled. Wobb is too broken for OU...simply said. The big topic now is the Latis, and potentially Garchomp's return to OU.

 

[sims796]

Pseudo - Not actually but having the appearance of; pretended; false or spurious; sham.

So it's basically settled. Wobb is too broken for OU...simply said. The big topic now is the Latis, and potentially Garchomp's return to OU.

I don't think it's been settled.

Oh, and thank you, I didn't know that it wsa an ACTUAL word. I feel stupid :P

 

[ABYAY]

I didn't think it was either. I just typed dictonary.com, and looked it up to see if it existed.

 

[Xairmo]

Pseudo - Not actually but having the appearance of; pretended; false or spurious; sham.

So it's basically settled. Wobb is too broken for OU...simply said. The big topic now is the Latis, and potentially Garchomp's return to OU.

Didn't the month ban on Garchomp end a few days ago?

 

[ABYAY]

No, the banning of it ends this Wednesday, and at that point there will be a discussion on it most likely.

 

[Xairmo]

Ah. Is another thread going to be made or is the discussion going to be held here?

 

[ABYAY]

I'm unsure of that argument, but I would guess both here and in strategies and movesets.

 

[airconditioning]

Apparently, on this site, he's been known to be an uber the whole time he was open, and not accepted anywhere. There needs to be an announcement of some sort. Or, a tourney, like one being held for Lati@s. A way for us to test how it would work on this site. Quoting statistics from shoddy isn't enough.

Oh, I thought you meant that we'd have a month free of Wobby. He's technically OU (or at least Limbo), so I figured he was allowed here. Which confused me.

Oh, and thank you, I didn't know that it wsa an ACTUAL word. I feel stupid :P

I didn't think it was either. I just typed dictonary.com, and looked it up to see if it existed.

I feel grateful for my English classes now. :D

 

[Ooka]

Actually, most of the discussion goes on at the Shoddy server, where we've been going through rigorous testing. Basically we've descovered that Garchomp needs to stay in Ubers, Wobba needs to go back, and Lati@s without Soul Dew (or at least from what I've heard) is so far fine in OU. Most sets of Latias get countered by Blissey, and most sets on Latios get countered by Gliscor. Of course, they both have the viability to switch between Physical and Special attacking, but they usually don't.

 

[sims796]

Sorry, I'm not being clear.

I meant taking anonomous test, that doesn't really help this site in particular. If WE are conducting experiment, then I agree to using shoddy, but taking statistics ins't enough.

 

[Aquilae]

If Wobb gives them a free turn to set up, what are they going to do when their set-up sweepers are walled easily? That is my question to you. A good team should have ways of dealing with common set-up sweepers, Wobb would be pretty much dead weight if it didn't contribute much to the team, how are you going to sweep when your set-up sweepers are easily walled?

 

[_Prince_]

If Wobb gives them a free turn to set up, what are they going to do when their set-up sweepers are walled easily? That is my question to you. A good team should have ways of dealing with common set-up sweepers, Wobb would be pretty much dead weight if it didn't contribute much to the team, how are you going to sweep when your set-up sweepers are easily walled?

You're underestimating wobby's true power dude.

Another aspect is it totally sucks the fun out of switching out, I know this has nothing to do with the argument. Isn't battling all about fun? I see no joy in this. At least duggy doesn't trap flyers and levitators and zone only traps steels. But trapping every pokemon, 'oh please come on' .... Duggy on the other hand is fragile and can easily be seriously damage, moves like bullet punch, iceshard or even pursuit if you predict a switching out. The only reason shoddy's statistics are low people respect each other and they see Wobby as an uber.

Wobby wil get moved back to ubers where it belongs soon enough.