Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[trainerjeff]

if you do a simply skill swap. this is the most unbias way to split it up into tiers since it does not discriminate against anything but the full stats it can have

 

[airconditioning]

Let's imagine that there is a Pokemon with a base stat total of 999. However, the only move it learns is Splash. By your tier list, it would be above God tier. Now tell me, would you seriously tell me that this Pokemon is stronger than Arceus?

The tier list isn't measured by stats alone. There are many different factors in determining strength- movepool, Ability, typing, etc. Grouping Pokemon by their stat totals is about as biased a list as you can get.

Also, I'd like to see you Skill Swap in a Single Battle.

 

[trainerjeff]

sorry i would rather play with pokemon that need a little skill and strategy than pure power and one shoting people. and i like how you make a remark about something that would never happen. like how electrive is OU but is weak against one of the most commonly used attacks, same with weavile, and all of the others

 

[AJ™]

sorry i would rather play with pokemon that need a little skill and strategy than pure power and one shoting people. and i like how you make a remark about something that would never happen. like how electrive is OU but is weak against one of the most commonly used attacks, same with weavile, and all of the others

1. Too bad! It doesn't work like that!
2. Thats what the UU tier, and Little Cup is for! More strategy!

 

[airconditioning]

... Do you even play Pokemon? Your list is completely unbalanced. Regigigas is a terrible Pokemon, and can't even attempt to compare to someone like Groudon and Kyogre, who are objectively stronger in every way. You're grouping weak Pokemon (the ones that take 'skill' and 'strategy') with brutally overpowered ones (the ones with 'pure power' and the ability to 'one-shot' people). How the hell can you possibly think this is in any way balanced?

 

[AJ™]

... Do you even play Pokemon? Your list is completely unbalanced. Regigigas is a terrible Pokemon, and can't even attempt to compare to someone like Groudon and Kyogre, who are objectively stronger in every way. You're grouping weak Pokemon (the ones that take 'skill' and 'strategy') with brutally overpowered ones (the ones with 'pure power' and the ability to 'one-shot' people). How the hell can you possibly think this is in any way balanced?

And thats why Kyogre and Groudon are UBER...

FOR A REASON.

 

[sims796]

You see, jeff, we are looking far past stats alone, which is what you are doing. Stats don't mean crap. Weavile may be frail, but it is fast enough to decimate teams unprepared. People are SMART ENOUGH to use them to get past their weaknesses. Sure, Garchomp is weak to ice, but try to get one in. We will not use some half arsed method of determining a pokemon's tier, simply on stats alone. &*%$^%$&#*##%@$^%$#@#%^$^*%^&%$#@#$%^&*&^%$# SLOW START! WHAT THE HELL! Seiously, that is why you look past crap like stats, seeing as it is only one way of determining tier placement.

 

[airconditioning]

I also want to point out that stat totals don't mean a thing. At all. What's important is how those stats are distributed. For example, look at Garchomp. It wouldn't be nearly as threatening if it lost about 3 points of Speed and had them placed in SAtk. However, it would still have the same 600 stat total.

 

[sims796]

And don't forget ability. Wobbuffet would be useless if not for Shadow Tag. Ttar would have a much harder time without Sand stream.

 

[AJ™]

Also,
Look at Shuckle!

Over 600 possible in Def. and Sp.Def, but it means nothing since Shuckle is as slow as can be, and can't take a hit for crap with it's HP.

 

[Aquilae]

Uh Shuckle is ridiculously hard to stall out in Sandstorm without any supereffective moves, so that is a moot point, considering that its defenses are still great. (20/230/230 is by no means bad).

Usage correlates to viability. What matters is not the base stat total but the effectiveness of the pokemon in a normal battle condition, which is subjective but can be determined to an extent with usage statistics.

If Sunkern is good, people will use it, and win with it. That has been the jist of D/P tiering, based on weighted usage statistics from Shoddybattle and an arbitrary line (to my knowledge there isn't really a way to draw an non-arbitary line between tiers).

 

[Walrein]

Gorebyss should be promoted to BL. 114 SpA is a stat many in the BL tier would dream of. 105 Def and Steel resistiance lets it kill Bronzong easily. Swift Swim gives it all the speed it needs.

 

[shedinjask]

Does it unbalance UU? No, no one is even discussing Gorebyss. It's fine where it is.

EDIT: Why is there a distinction between Azumarills with Huge Power and those without? If Wobbuffet had an alternative to Shadow Tag, it would still be Uber because it's that powerful when used to its full potential. What are you going to do next, OU Manaphy with no Tail Glow?

Also since when was Garchomp unbanned, I haven't been here in a while.

 

[Azonic]

Garchomp is still in debate in a thread in Strategies and Movesets. >:<

Azumarill should be either Borderline or Underused, regardless of the ability. I mean, you can't use a Kyogre with crappy moves and call it OU. Each Pokemon deserves to be in a stable tier.

I'd like to discuss the topic of bringing Umbreon down to Borderline (BL). I haven't seen one in my whole life, and it can't really do much by itself. So yeah.

 

[sims796]

Does it unbalance UU? No, no one is even discussing Gorebyss. It's fine where it is.

EDIT: Why is there a distinction between Azumarills with Huge Power and those without? If Wobbuffet had an alternative to Shadow Tag, it would still be Uber because it's that powerful when used to its full potential. What are you going to do next, OU Manaphy with no Tail Glow?

Also since when was Garchomp unbanned, I haven't been here in a while.

not at all. Azumarill without Huge Power is useless completely. Withouth Shadow Tag, Wobbufet is ten times more useless, and ten times less broken. It can't attack, so I can either use it for set up, or simply switch, rather than face Counter or Mirror Coat. Without Tail Glow, Manaphy is also useless, to an extent, anyways.

I may have misinterpreted what you are saying, however, so please elaborate if I am.

 

[airconditioning]

He was saying that when determining tier placement, there shouldn't be a distinction. For example, let's say that Wobbuffet has an alternative ability to Shadow Tag (like, say, it has Shadow Tag and Natural Cure). Sure, it can have Natural Cure, but it can also have Shadow Tag, and should be placed as such based on his strongest set. Otherwise, we can just bring Ubers into OU with nerfed sets (I remember someone talking about nerfing Mewtwo enough to be usable in OU some months ago).

 

[sims796]

Yeah, I figured that after I re-read twice moar. In that case,he is absolutley right on that.

 

[Duckets]

there's no point in having pokemon in different tier's depending on their ability or sets. it's your choice if you use a different set, even if it somehow disadvantages the pokemon.

Everything is arranged according to the standard metagame. And there should be no fluid pokemon, if you choose to use thick fat over huge power on azumarill then you do so keeping in mind that azumarill in the BL tier will be essentially useless with thick fat.

my opinion anyway :P

 

[shedinjask]

Garchomp is still in debate in a thread in Strategies and Movesets. >:<

It was unbanned a while ago. Now it's back in OU.

 

[Ársa]

Garchomp is now Uber. If Ooka or a mod would be so kind as to make the change, that would be great.

~T_S