Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[Elite Master]

Garchomp is now Uber. If Ooka or a mod would be so kind as to make the change, that would be great.

~T_S

I heard.:/.Garchomp Uber is Failure.Now people will try To find Chomp Replacments Like ChoiceCross,AgiltyGross,andPwnmence.(lol).If people Are desperate enough about not using Chomp They will probably resort to Speed-Deoxys.:(

 

[shedinjask]

Yeah because Deoxys-S can definitely KO through Yache.

There is no Garchomp replacement. Nothing comes close.

 

[kabigon]

Wobbuffet and garchomp are both uber now on smogon, so the list needs to be updated. Good riddance, I was getting sick of garchomps ugly face on wifi.

 

[shedinjask]

Wobbuffet and garchomp are both uber now on smogon, so the list needs to be updated.

While I agree that most sites should generally follow Smogon if they're undecided, and I agree with Smogon most of the time, this kind of blind faith pisses me off. They shouldn't be uber just because Smogon said so. Show some independence will you.

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

While I agree that most sites should generally follow Smogon if they're undecided, and I agree with Smogon most of the time, this kind of blind faith pisses me off. They shouldn't be uber just because Smogon said so. Show some independence will you.

Well the only reason people do resort to Smogon isn't because they have no independence, it's because it's such an accomplished and mega-detailed informative website. The forums are buzzing, the staff is extremely Poke-knowledgeable and besides all that PC has already agreed to go with what smogon decides. Tons of people here believe Chomp going uber is a good idea.

If Nintendo/GameFreak decides to release an official tier list, we'd follow that.

 

[Bendak]

Now that Garchomp is uber, dragon type sucks for monotype tournies. That means you have to use Altaria, Salamence, Dragonite, Flygon, and Kingdra.

 

[Anti]

Oh my gosh, this thread brings back old memories. Good times...

But seriously, I doubt Nintendo or Gamefreak releases a tier list and if they did, chances are we'd be silly to follow it when Smogon's is a lot more complete.

I don't know, they seem to be more qualified than us to make these decisions (based on having more pokemon minds to sort through stuff and get things done). I do agree with Garchomp's ban only in the sense that way too many people complain about it and getting rid of it will just solve a lot of problems, at least until platinum comes out lol

 

[.]

As of now, with the advent of Outrage on Salamence, I can almost smell Salamence being kicked off to ubers ;_; This raises the idea of even more SR usage, and an increase in Weaviles.

As for UU, I feel Absol is going to be getting a surge in power. I mean, SuperPower? Sort of ridiculous in a sense, of course, Fire Blast is superior generally.

 

[sims796]

As of now, with the advent of Outrage on Salamence, I can almost smell Salamence being kicked off to ubers ;_; This raises the idea of even more SR usage, and an increase in Weaviles.

As for UU, I feel Absol is going to be getting a surge in power. I mean, SuperPower? Sort of ridiculous in a sense, of course, Fire Blast is superior generally.

I don't. It is Stealth Rock weak, it takes damage from Sandstorm, it lacks a fudgin' base One-O-2 -I mean seriously, WTF- base Speed, more fragile, while retaining Ice weakness, et-certera, et-cetera.

That means, due to prediction of the future metagame alone, it would serve to play as either an early game behemoth, or a late game sweeper, after all counters have been significantly weakend. It has a somewhat limited switching ability, and it lacks the proper sheer power of Chomp -it must dance twice to avoid wreckage, and every time it charges up, it gains an additional risk of a Gyro Ball up the vage.

Not to mention it lacks a cheap ability, and it doesn't gain STAB Earthquake.

I'm seeing some great Mixed Dragonite sets, that I may use in the near future. Or distant future, I don't like shoddy. My emeniez are there o.O

It gains SuperPower, something Mence would love for his mixed sets. I feel Mence is being hyped a tad too much. As I said before, people liakz Dragonite. If it gets outclassed, people will work on other ways to make it more useful. Super Power aids this goal.

Gastro Acid is a useful move, shutting down Liquid Ooze (disgusting) so Leech Seed can raep. Go Choice Band, Swords Dance Vileplume.

 

[Anti]

I don't see CBmence having any counters. UBAR

NO COUNTERS MEGA DIVERSE COUNTERS HERA AND LUCARIO NOOOOOOOO

...lol

Seriously though Salamence won't be uber most likely. I really don't think it should be either considering it isn't quite the beast Garchomp is with the SR and SS problems that Garchomp didn't have to worry about. It's way too early to tell anyways. I really hope people don't make a big deal out of it though >_>

 

[sims796]

Yes. People seems to be overracting. I'll just post what I posted before about Lucario.

Plus, I am sick of people drooling over Lucario with Ice/Thunder Punch. It isn't that great. On SD sets, the standard, it has movepool syndrome. It MUST have CC, SD (duh), & XSpeed, lest it gets outrun everytime. The last move will leave him walled anyway. Witout Crunch, Cressy & Noir gets him, without Stone Edge, GYA & Mence beats him, without T-Punch, everything but Gya beats him. Gliscor walls everything but the IcePunch set. And Weezing & Spiritomb walls him no matter what. Those Punches are welcome additions, but in no way are they gamebreaking.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I don't see CBmence having any counters. UBAR

NO COUNTERS MEGA DIVERSE COUNTERS HERA AND LUCARIO NOOOOOOOO

...lol

Seriously though Salamence won't be uber most likely. I really don't think it should be either considering it isn't quite the beast Garchomp is with the SR and SS problems that Garchomp didn't have to worry about. It's way too early to tell anyways. I really hope people don't make a big deal out of it though >_>

Probably the "best counter" to Platinum CB Mence is like Max hp / max def Bold Trace Porygon 2,which takes 45.19% - 53.74% from CB Outrage (Negates CB Due to Intimidate), which is a 0.72% chance of a 2hko and a 89.48% chance to 2hko with SR up.

So you can come in on anything in its set pretty much without sr up. And you can come in on anything bar Outrage with SR up without too much trouble. And if CB Mence is locked into Outrage its one heck of alot easier to revenge kill than chomp is/was.

 

[sims796]

I think you are forgetting about Steelix, who resists most moves that it throws out. Other than EQ.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I think you are forgetting about Steelix, who resists most moves that it throws out. Other than EQ.

Nope, i wasnt forgetting steelix since its not a really a counter to CB Mence. Porygon 2 might be according to the damage it takes. Steelix also gets sunk by not only said EQ but Fire Blast too =p.

EDIT : Unless you were just referring to the steel Outrage resist part ?. In which case i agree, that and most other common steels can take the Outrage.

 

[sims796]

Oh yeah, Fire Blast. It still can come in on it's greatest STAB, and start charging up with Curse. Then sink it with either Gyro Ball or Ice Fang.

 

[マツバ]

But seriously, I doubt Nintendo or Gamefreak releases a tier list and if they did, chances are we'd be silly to follow it when Smogon's is a lot more complete.

Couldn't one say their tier list is the Platinum Battle Frontier restrictions? ...Still haha, but I thought that was their "tier list."

Plus, I am sick of people drooling over Lucario with Ice/Thunder Punch. It isn't that great. On SD sets, the standard, it has movepool syndrome. It MUST have CC, SD (duh), & XSpeed, lest it gets outrun everytime. The last move will leave him walled anyway. Witout Crunch, Cressy & Noir gets him, without Stone Edge, GYA & Mence beats him, without T-Punch, everything but Gya beats him. Gliscor walls everything but the IcePunch set. And Weezing & Spiritomb walls him no matter what. Those Punches are welcome additions, but in no way are they gamebreaking.

Well, in a way I agree with your stance on Lucario, sims796. Yes, Lucario's moves are indeed restricted and obviously dampened by four moveslot syndrome, yet what do the new additions add? More opportunity to predict Lucario's set incorrectly. More viable moves equal more versatility, in a sense. Look at Salamence, it has numerous sets. Though that isn't a proper comparison because "sets" while this focuses on one. (Even if Lucario has multiple other sets too) But without my ramble, it adds a little dagger in the back of the mind. When you're battling a Lucario, sure, you know the three standard moves that are coming, which by themselves, are pretty deadly anyway. Until you see that fourth slot, you're relying on gut really. I agree, it's not game"breaking" but it definitely helps Lucario in the sense of unpredictability, which yes, is great when it comes to today's prediction focused metagame. Lucario is a late game Pokémon anyway, when you think about it, having a couple of things to scratch off during battle isn't that troublesome, especially with the other threats out there. And indeed, some people are taking Platinum additions way over the line, I'm not going to hype anything until it hits the shoddy field.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, players have a reason to be excited with the moves. Lucario, uber? Now that's probably insanity at its finest, but who knows how things will play out.

Frankly, I do not see Salamence jumping into the uber tier, yes, the Outrage addition is welcome, but it has so much going against it. This time people can't whine about "hax" and the like. (As the Garchomp debate flared numerous times) And also, I don't see a problem with Mence being capable of 2HKOing it's "counters" with Choice Band. Choice Pokémon aren't countered, they're predicted. Agreeing with Anti, I seriously hope this doesn't turn into a Garchomp v.2 seven month shamble. Experiencing it once was enough, twice? D_A and BeachBoy would probably cut their heads off if that happened again. [Sorry for the imagery that caused]

 

[sims796]

I never said that it doesn't add a layer of uncertainty when using Luke. But no matter how "unpredictable"it is, it will always be walled hard by something. Without Bullet Punch, Gengar has a free switch inas it uses either Swords Dance, Close Combat, or X-Speed, and once it is out, there is nothing you can do but switch. So he is walled by faster pokemon that can handle X-Speed as well. It really doesn't add anything scary to Luke, as he is not that hard to beat. By the time he is used, his counters are weakend enough for an OHKO, anyway. Not to mention that Weezing & Spiritomb will always be surefire counters.

I won't get into Mence. I've said enough on that. But what i aill speak of, is the counter mentality.

Counters is still a viable part of battling. Many pokemon are countered, and many people rely on counters as part of their playing style sucsessfully. To say that pokemon aren't countered is crazy. Certain pokemon aren't. We all get that. But many teams, especially defensively mind, use counters to their fullest. Until Smogon decides to take "Counters" off their poke-analysis, it won't be obsolete.

And while I'm here, let me get this one thing straight, and this isn't aimmed at anyone in particular, mind you, but this has been getting on my nerves.

People who whines about peopple that whines on Chomp being uber. Confusing? Well, I'm talking about people who says that Chomp isn't uber, because

A."Counters are invalid"
B."You can't discriminate on it's ability"
And
C."They just can't handle it".

Once again, I can't stress on the fact that this is really aimmed at noobs.

A.Counters to you are invalid, not to everyone. Revenge killing is an important part, but counteing isn't going to dissapear anytime soon.

B.Yeah, I'm sure Martin Luther King will forgive us for discriminating on Chomp only, but quite frankly, it isn't his ability alone, it was really just the straw that broke the camel's back. That is why Gliscor isn't going away for having Sand Veil. If his ability works towards him being "broken" (for lack of a better word) then it does for Glisor or Froslass, so be it.

C.We also can't handle Mewtwo being part of our metagame. Your point? Should we allow Arceus into our game because we are "whining"?


The TL;DR version of it: This wasn't something made on a whim. It was a just a simple case where the majority decided that the uberific flaws outweighed the OU pros. That's all.

 

[マツバ]

And yet I never accused you of not saying it adds to the unpredictability, merely stating such. Yes, that's true. Something will be there to stop it, but again... if the player brings out their "Lucario counter" and ends up being wrong, like say... Cressilia and Crunch, it'll be costly. The punches add another dimension to that, that's all I'm saying. Someone can't carry all the Lucario counters, and at the same time, someone can't have all those moves. Something's gotta give, you know?

On counters, if perhaps the crazy talk was directed at me. (But probably not, I'll just say it anyway XD;;) I was referring to Choice Banded Pokémon, usually they're predicted and locked into switching instead of dealing with counters. Yes, there are counters in today's metagame, but quite frankly, checks and revenge killers are definitely on the rise. Defensive teams rely on the word "counter" offensive teams rely on the words "revenge killing & checks." But I think we can all agree offensive teams outnumber defensive teams by a large margin.

And now that that is over, I think Garchomp talk can give it a rest, once and for all... at least until it gets tested months and months down the road. <_<;;

 

[sims796]

And yet I never accused you of not saying it adds to the unpredictability, merely stating such. Yes, that's true. Something will be there to stop it, but again... if the player brings out their "Lucario counter" and ends up being wrong, like say... Cressilia and Crunch, it'll be costly. The punches add another dimension to that, that's all I'm saying. Someone can't carry all the Lucario counters, and at the same time, someone can't have all those moves. Something's gotta give, you know?

On counters, if perhaps the crazy talk was directed at me. (But probably not, I'll just say it anyway XD;;) I was referring to Choice Banded Pokémon, usually they're predicted and locked into switching instead of dealing with counters. Yes, there are counters in today's metagame, but quite frankly, checks and revenge killers are definitely on the rise. Defensive teams rely on the word "counter" offensive teams rely on the words "revenge killing & checks." But I think we can all agree offensive teams outnumber defensive teams by a large margin.

And now that that is over, I think Garchomp talk can give it a rest, once and for all... at least until it gets tested months and months down the road. <_<;;

That's true, and sorry if it seemed that I was, um, "yelling" at you, but I wasn't. It just so happend that everything you said, 12 other people said, as well. At once. That's why my time on Smogon was so short. A group of morons.

They keep regarding Lucario as if he is godly & broken because he has the punches, when really, all that does is make him a tad more difficult to counter effecently. Most teams I've encounterd (on shoddy) has had Cressy & Sala, Gya & Sala, Gya & Cressy, Gliscor & Cressy, etc. Or a combination of the three (Spiritomb is pretty rare, based on my experiences, for some odd reason. So Luke isn't too hard to beat, yet people fears him broken.

And their was a whole thread regarding counters being obsolete. Some moron acted like he spoke for the majority. I feel that revenge killing & checks are just fancy words to "counter".

As for Chomp, well, you're not a noob, so whatever...

 

[Samson]

wait, so whatever happened to chomp? xD

is he all uber and stuffz o.o?