Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[.]

If Rattata was complete crap but was used extremely often it would be OU. OU, UU and NU are determined by usage > power which is subjective in most instances. BL and Ubers are determined by gauging the centralisation for the pokemon and seeing if it causes the metagame to be unhealthy.

Wait...I assumed UU and OU were determined by power and overall viability. I also thought BL was the tier that determined usability (for OU, of course)

 

[Ooka]

Really? Well now I feel stupid, I could have sworn BL was the only tier determined by usage. Well, we learn something everyday, right?

 

[Aquilae]

Sort of, OU is literally OverUsed and UU is literally UnderUsed. BL and Ubers are just banlists.

 

[Ooka]

Well, even now knowing that, I still think BL should be a more, well, existent tier. I love to use plenty of the Pokemon in it, however when I ask for a BL battle, most people reject that fact that I even use them.

 

[.]

Sort of, OU is literally OverUsed and UU is literally UnderUsed. BL and Ubers are just banlists.

That makes sense, especially the BL and Uber being banlists. But if we go by that logic, Salamence is usable in UU?

 

[ABYAY]

The distinguishment between Ubers and OU: Power; Obviously, if Arceus was never used, it'd always remain Uber. The same goes for Wobbuffet. It's too strong for OU because its ability, Shadow Tag, as well as Encore/Mirror Coat/Counter/Safeguard, it basically allows setup to become easier than ever. Shadow Tag blocks a Pokemon that can't do much to Wobbuffet, which Wobbuffet can Encore or retaliate. If it Encores, then you get a free switch to something to set up stat-wise.

Distinguishment between OU and BL: Usage; simply enough, if it's used a lot, but not too powerful for the metagame, then it's OU. If it's rarely used, say Gardevoir, but it's still too strong for the likes of UU, then it's BL.

Distinguishment between BL and UU: Power; Unsaring may never be used, but it's too strong for it to fall into UU. Weezing plummeted straight from OU down to UU, so it can even take from the OU metagame if capable.

I hope that clears up any questions on tiers. Now, as for my Deoxys-Speed opinion; Have a counter, or you might lose pretty badly. It can cause a 6-0, or it can just do little the entire game.

 

[.]

The misconception a lot of people make about D-E is that it is a true sweeper. It can't hurt things unless it hits for super effective. Things like Metagross and Bronzong counter it pretty badly, even Regirock takes SuperPowers from it's Base 95 Att and laughs at it (with no Def EV's or even a +Def nature)

D-E is a fantastic revenge killer with a fantastic movepool and fantastic stats. But as for Choice items...It kind of defeats the purpose of using D-E once you slap a Band/Specs on it.

 

[Ooka]

The distinguishment between Ubers and OU: Power; Obviously, if Arceus was never used, it'd always remain Uber. The same goes for Wobbuffet. It's too strong for OU because its ability, Shadow Tag, as well as Encore/Mirror Coat/Counter/Safeguard, it basically allows setup to become easier than ever. Shadow Tag blocks a Pokemon that can't do much to Wobbuffet, which Wobbuffet can Encore or retaliate. If it Encores, then you get a free switch to something to set up stat-wise.

Distinguishment between OU and BL: Usage; simply enough, if it's used a lot, but not too powerful for the metagame, then it's OU. If it's rarely used, say Gardevoir, but it's still too strong for the likes of UU, then it's BL.

Distinguishment between BL and UU: Power; Unsaring may never be used, but it's too strong for it to fall into UU. Weezing plummeted straight from OU down to UU, so it can even take from the OU metagame if capable.

I hope that clears up any questions on tiers. Now, as for my Deoxys-Speed opinion; Have a counter, or you might lose pretty badly. It can cause a 6-0, or it can just do little the entire game.

Well in that case, then I suppose I thought right about the tiers.

 

[4th Gen Matt]

The distinguishment between Ubers and OU: Power; Obviously, if Arceus was never used, it'd always remain Uber. The same goes for Wobbuffet. It's too strong for OU because its ability, Shadow Tag, as well as Encore/Mirror Coat/Counter/Safeguard, it basically allows setup to become easier than ever. Shadow Tag blocks a Pokemon that can't do much to Wobbuffet, which Wobbuffet can Encore or retaliate. If it Encores, then you get a free switch to something to set up stat-wise.

Distinguishment between OU and BL: Usage; simply enough, if it's used a lot, but not too powerful for the metagame, then it's OU. If it's rarely used, say Gardevoir, but it's still too strong for the likes of UU, then it's BL.

Distinguishment between BL and UU: Power; Unsaring may never be used, but it's too strong for it to fall into UU. Weezing plummeted straight from OU down to UU, so it can even take from the OU metagame if capable.

I hope that clears up any questions on tiers. Now, as for my Deoxys-Speed opinion; Have a counter, or you might lose pretty badly. It can cause a 6-0, or it can just do little the entire game.

I hate wasting a space on my team to counter one idiotic Pokemon that deserves to be in Ubers.

Why isn't it in ubers anyway? It outruns EVERYTHING and still maintains a good Atk, SpAtk, Def, and SpDef stat. The only thing it lacks is good HP which really does not matter since it outruns everything and 1 or 2HKOs everything.

And for the people who think UU Pokemon can't beat OU are wrong. My Hitmonlee 1HKO'd two OU Pokemon.

Haha, pwnage.

 

[Anti]

The misconception a lot of people make about D-E is that it is a true sweeper. It can't hurt things unless it hits for super effective. Things like Metagross and Bronzong counter it pretty badly, even Regirock takes SuperPowers from it's Base 95 Att and laughs at it (with no Def EV's or even a +Def nature)

D-E is a fantastic revenge killer with a fantastic movepool and fantastic stats. But as for Choice items...It kind of defeats the purpose of using D-E once you slap a Band/Specs on it.

Regirock rofl

I agree with the second paragraph totally...but how is Deoxys-S not a "true sweeper" exactly? It doesn't have many counters and it's almost impossible to revenge kill (and the one thing that does revenge kill it is so insanely easy to set up on that it's not even worth it).

I mean it isn't good in the early game, but mid to late and it's a real pain lol. And by that I mean it can easily sweep teams without even having to set up. It doesn't hit very hard, but it is very fast and versatile, and it hits a ton of stuff supereffective. It's like a much better Electivire, essentially. It hits almost everything supereffective. While it has trouble with what it can't, that list is very short.

Also, don't forget that there are trappers with the ability to defeat Deoxys-S's most common foes (Bronzong and Metagross, and to an extent, Heatran). I wouldn't take that for granted.

EDIT: While I agree that UUs can compete with OUs in many cases, my Luvdisc did in fact kill two ubers with its STAB Surf in the rain. In other words, I don't think that's a very good argument =p

 

[.]

I hate wasting a space on my team to counter one idiotic Pokemon that deserves to be in Ubers.

Wasting a slot to counter one idiotic Pokemon?

@ Choice Scarf
Timid
252 SpA/252 Spe/6 HP
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt
HP Ice
Focus Blast

Use this guy. He revenge kills Gyarados, Salamence, Deoxys-e, Alakazam, Azelf, foe Gengar, Tyranitar, etc...


@ Anti

When I say it's not a true sweeper, I mean that it'll never be using Choice items, nor will it be hitting things for neutral and doing mass damage. It's main offensive method is to hit things for Super Effective (and it most certainly can) Things like Missy can boost their SpA and can afford to hit less things for super effective. D-E can't, thus is restricted to hitting things for Super Effective.

 

[4th Gen Matt]

Regirock rofl

I agree with the second paragraph totally...but how is Deoxys-S not a "true sweeper" exactly? It doesn't have many counters and it's almost impossible to revenge kill (and the one thing that does revenge kill it is so insanely easy to set up on that it's not even worth it).

I mean it isn't good in the early game, but mid to late and it's a real pain lol. And by that I mean it can easily sweep teams without even having to set up. It doesn't hit very hard, but it is very fast and versatile, and it hits a ton of stuff supereffective. It's like a much better Electivire, essentially. It hits almost everything supereffective. While it has trouble with what it can't, that list is very short.

Also, don't forget that there are trappers with the ability to defeat Deoxys-S's most common foes (Bronzong and Metagross, and to an extent, Heatran). I wouldn't take that for granted.

EDIT: While I agree that UUs can compete with OUs in many cases, my Luvdisc did in fact kill two ubers with its STAB Surf in the rain. In other words, I don't think that's a very good argument =p

Yeah, it has hardly any counters and can take its counters out fairly easily. A real pain in battling.

So do you believe it should be moved to uber?

 

[Aquilae]

Wasting a slot on a Pursuit weak choice scarfer which gets 2HKOed by everything DX-S throws at it (except HP Fire, GK, Superpower) that is one of the few pokemon that can revenge-kill DX-S and DX-S can just switch out??

 

[.]

Gengar does more than enough to earn a moveslot. It revenge kills the best things in the metagame, and if it forces a switch, then it's obvious it's doing it's job in scaring the foe away.

 

[Aquilae]

and Deoxys-S can come in again, and down another pokemon for gengar to come out to revenge-kill....

Gengar is not a reliable solution for Deoxys-S which in most cases would necessitate the use of walls / tanks.

 

[sims796]

Hm, Deo-S as uber? Well, I've been out of the battling scene, but I will say that once my Grumpig left my team, he's been getting harder to handle. Yes, Grumpig, gotta problem wit dat? I mean,even with Piggly Wiggly, it's been tough.

So I wouldn't be sad to see him go. But I don't see him uber for some reason. Possibly because he's similar to Dugtrio --a mindless revenge kill with little afterthought.

Don't be an idiot and comment with such refined crap such as "But sims, Trio has Arena Trap,they're different!!!!1!!!11oneoneone". I know. but the principal is similar, and the point i make is valid.

 

[Azonic]

Deoxys (Speed)
Should not have anything done to it. I honestly don't see it as such a strong Pokemon anymore. It isn't a real sweeper, I have to say that. It's easily walled by Sucker Punch, Pursuit, bulky psychics, and the little fat pink bowling ball over there. It Softboiled stalls it until Deoxys-e is weakened from the Attack drop enough. It just doesn't strike me as uber to me. It's a revenge killer, but it's easily revenge killed. You follow?

Donphan
Down to BL you go. It hasn't seen usage anymore. It's outclassed by a lot of other spinners. At first I thought its stats were great for a Pokemon, but looking further into it, it really is crap.

Dusknoir
This has seen a fair amount of decrease in usage these days. It just doesn't pose as a threat anymore. All it can do is Will-o-Wisp the opponent and try to stall it out, or something like that.

Electivire
Oh Electivire. It's walled by so many, and the lack of a boosting move severely limits its capabilities. It's usage has decreased a fair amount, and even with the Motor Drive boost it can't afford to pull off a good sweep.

Jolteon
Eww... this thing is still here? I haven't seen one in years a long time. It's a good Baton Passer, but its usage has dropped a good amount. Its outclassed by a slower, but much more bulky alternative of Zapdos.

Ninjask
In the beginning of Diamond and Pearl, I saw this thing coming around every corner. Now, I barely see any of it. It doesn't really work at all anymore.Most people would use the bulkier and safer alternative of Zapdos if they wanted to Baton Pass to another member.

Umbreon
What the poo is this thing doing in OU? I mean honestly, there was only one time I've encountered it in a battle. And that trainer put Giga Impact on Umbreon, so... There's barely any usage of this guy. It's just a Cresselia with bad HP.

Weavile
...is debatable. It's usage hasn't gone down that much like others have. But it's strength isn't what it used to be. Shaymin-Sky has gotten that little boost just like Garchomp to barely outspeed it. Weavile is walled by the common steel type, and its usage has dropped because it can't afford to have such a common weakness.

Weezing
This is one I'm curious about. Not only has its usage plummeted in OU, but Smogon has even bumped it down to UU. Why on earth would you still have this guy up here?

Who wants Porygon2 as Overused? \o/

Anyways, why am I under the suspicion that Ooka hasn't updated this thread in a very looong time? Someone move Shaymin-sky to ubers already. >>;

Edit: -screams- Just missed my postcount. BUT THIS IS MY 4567TH POST. Yay consecutive numbers.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Should not have anything done to it. I honestly don't see it as such a strong Pokemon anymore. It isn't a real sweeper, I have to say that. It's easily walled by Sucker Punch, Pursuit, bulky psychics, and the little fat pink bowling ball over there. It Softboiled stalls it until Deoxys-e is weakened from the Attack drop enough. It just doesn't strike me as uber to me. It's a revenge killer, but it's easily revenge killed. You follow?

I would like to know how you wall something with Sucker Punch and it can take out most common Pursuiters such as Weavile, Tyranitar etc.(Your best bet if you want to Pursuit it are Trap Scizor and variations of IPL Metagross). And if Blissey switches IN TO a Super Power its 2hko'd.


I would like to emphasize that it IS NOT the sweepers set that is in question, its the utility lead sets which can set up sweeps pretty darn easily for the rest of your team.


Anyway as i said the sweepers set is not really a problem there are quite a few counters in ou to its set, even if you said "But its unpredictable" yes whilst it has a HUGE movepool sweeping wise you drop something from the set and use another offensive move your going to get walled by something else. The joys of moveslot syndrome. For example, you drop say Thunderbolt for Grass Knot ? Congrats you are now walled by steels etc even more. Super Power for HP Fire ? yay lets get owned by T-Tar etc, see ?.

I dont want to list ALL of its viable counters 1. Because i cant be bothered 2. Is it necessary for me to just say "Steel like Metagross, Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Sp.Def Heatran, bulky psychics, Ghosts like Spiritomb and Dusknoir etc" as examples, when you can find them yourself lol ?.


Not to mention offensive teams SHOULD have a revenge killer anyway (who lets face it are the only ones at risk from sweeper deoxys, if you have a Deoxys-E weak stall team, re-think your game choice lol) .

Also how Gengar is #1 in usage at this present time and ~95% of them use a scarf revenge killing set as listed by vance and more and more people are using stuff like Scarf weavile and what not.

Cosmic power set is meh it still cant take powerful stuff on like CB Tar, Heracross, Yanmega, Gengar etc.

Anyway as i said on the previous pages i doubt this will be a as much of threat anymore thanks to Trick scarf benig omnipresent on leads in platinum and other changes to pokemon to screw its set up up.

Weavile
...is debatable. It's usage hasn't gone down that much like others have. But it's strength isn't what it used to be. Shaymin-Sky has gotten that little boost just like Garchomp to barely outspeed it. Weavile is walled by the common steel type, and its usage has dropped because it can't afford to have such a common weakness.

As hard as weavile is walled it is still common (13th and 14th most commonly used leads on Standard and suspect ladders respectively) and can fill nice niches in your team revenge killing, anti lead , it can also pose a threat late game with SD etc.So meh =p.

Anyways, why am I under the suspicion that Ooka hasn't updated this thread in a very looong time? Someone move Shaymin-sky to ubers already. >>;

Yeah, Skymin is irritating, against the sub set you have to sacrifice something to kill it aka break its sub JUST to get your Heatran in to revenge it. Sub Seed set is even worse due to its speed. However im still on the fence with this thing. However i do believe that it will get moved up eventually like Garchomp did if it causes problems.


Speaking of Garchomp i wonder with the changes of platinum to other pokemon if it may get unbanned later on, hmmm.

 

[BeachBoy]

• Deoxys (Speed)
  • Meh, I don't think it's uber-like anymore. Hasn't really been doing well with Platinum changes. Now that Platinum is out, I just don't see this getting uberfied. One word: Trick. Trick is indeed everywhere, and support and set up Deoxys fail to them, miserably. It's not even top 15 in usage anymore, that's not a fact, but it's been really limited lately. I barely even see one these days. It's lost its quality and ability as a top tier Pocket Monster, I'd say. Seems to me like the utility sets are having a really hard time these days, from what I've heard, seen, and attempted. I wouldn't mind to see it go so... *shrug* Perhaps the whole swirl of testing things is the reason it's not doing well or seen often, that could easily be why.
    

• Donphan
  • Could care less.

• Dusknoir
  • See above.

• Electivire
  • This is definitely OU, not even kidding. Not only have I seen more and more of them, people are forgetting this humble yeti exists. Focusing so much so on the new threats they get destroyed by Electrivire.

• Jolteon
  • Keep it OU, still working like a charm. See Electivire.

• Ninjask
  • Ahahaha.

• Umbreon
  • Isn't OU, sorry kids.

• Weavile
  • Are you freakin' kidding me? What the hell is this up for debate? Tier Drop? What a joke. Weavile is an OU Pocket Monster, hands down. The leads are rockin the scene these days and are very effective.

• Weezing
  • Frankly, I'm not sure. I don't play UU, I wouldn't know how it's performing there.

Also how Gengar is #1 in usage at this present time and ~95% of them use a scarf revenge killing set as listed by vance and more and more people are using stuff like Scarf weavile and what not.

Heatran says hi.

 

[.]

Electivire

• This is definitely OU, not even kidding. Not only have I seen more and more of them, people are forgetting this humble yeti exists. Focusing so much so on the new threats they get destroyed by Electrivire.

Disagree. It's incredibly easy to revenge kill/wall. Cresselia COMPLETELY shuts it down, and all the Rotom forms handle it pretty well.