Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[Anti]

I think it is hilarious how you got all worked up Azelf.

I am just saying that I BELIEVE he can hold his own in OU. I am not saying he will be the most powerul pokemon in there but he can hold his own.

And talking about all of his counters is not a valid argument either. As every single Pokemon has at least 1 counter. End of story.

rofl lol

You clearly don't understand how the tiers work. Can Weezing hold its own in OUs? Yes, but that doesn't mean it is OU. The tiers aren't defined by "well Nidoking can break walls in OUs so let's move it up."

Hell I used Luvdisc with decent success, but no way is it going to be OU. It's like OU/Uber debates with Garchomp - it doesn't matter how well Garchomp does in ubers, just the tier it's currently placed in (which was OUs at the time).

Now let's translate that to Hitmonlee. How good it does in OUs is NOT relevant. It's only what it does in UUs. Hitmonlee loses to the most common pokemon in the tier in Claydol and Weezing, who is also common. Hitmonlee has not over centralized the UU tier, so it's not going to be moved up until it does (which in this generation is likely never).

If you want to argue that Hitmonlee has caused over centralization, then by all means do say so (and man do I wish you luck, as you're going to need it). "It can hold its own in OUs" is not an argument to move it or anything else up from UUs and it never will be.

Maybe Dark_Azelf is getting worked up because this discussion is eroding because logic is practically nonexistent in about everything you say. "It can hold its own in the tier I want it to be moved to" is not relevant to these tier debates because of how the system works. Stop acting like it does, because it is NOT an argument to get it moved up. I reiterate, a lot of UUs can be used to great success in OUs (Kabutops being a very good example). That doesn't mean they should be moved up. It's that simple.

 

[El Gofre]

Yeah, what is Lee going to do to the like of Cress? I say he's POSSIBLY BL material, but only if maybe Weezing moves up as well. As it is, he's a frightening sweeper, yes, but doesn't overcentralize UU. Also remember that he is very predictable. You can't really do much with him except run CC/Stone Edge/EQ, and his speed leaves much to be desired.

I'm also very surprised that Lee can survive a CC from Infernape, actually. My Mothim can outspeed and OHKO Lee with AA... and it's a mixed set!

Standard MixApe (Naiive@24Att) will do 82-94% to standard hitmonlee, and since that's the most common set you can bet that's the reason for its survival. Against a fully physical variant he would most certainly not be so lucky.

However the arguament of who beats who is not valid when deciding who is better at a certain job. Hitmonlee is, in my opinion, a better fully-fledged physical sweeper, being able to fire off more powerful attacks and dedicate itself to a single attacking type better than infernape. Nape is perfectly suited to mixed sweeping, with moderate stats in both attacks, wide movepool and speed to match. However base 108 is hardly passable for a dedicated sweeper of one spectrum (Not being able to OHKO a base 53 Def poke is testament), and it is done far better by other pokes.

 

[.]

How does everyone feel about Steelix in UU? Curse on it's gonna make it pretty beastly now, and many of the dominant physical sweepers are going to be screwed over by it.

 

[sims796]

How prominent are special sweepers in UU? Enough to keep Steelix in check? Leafeon does get Roar, and can take an Ice Fang that's been boosted once.

 

[El Gofre]

How does everyone feel about Steelix in UU? Curse on it's gonna make it pretty beastly now, and many of the dominant physical sweepers are going to be screwed over by it.

Were they not screwed over by it anyway?

But yeah, curse is gonna make it significantly more dangerous. I myself am not keen on lowering its own speed, raising its own attack, and then firing off STAB'd Gyro Balls. The bump to its already huge defence is the icing on the cake really. Luckily it didnt gain anything else significant, and special sweepers still poop on it.

 

[.]

Well...With Max SpD and Max HP, it can survive a few Special Attacks (things like LO Flamethrower from Ninetails and non-LO Fire Blast)

 

[Anti]

I can't believe Curse Steelix is getting the hype it is. It's still easy to PHaze away if people still use those moves, and it's still even easier to wall/kill with so many UU threats it isn't even funny. Fighters like the hitmons and Primeape can still break its defenses, and if it uses rest to recover off damage, the result will either be switching out anyways or getting set up on by something like Ninetales. Your call.

Don't forget that any water type beats it and most anything can revenge kill it besides a few physical sweepers. I just don't see it having the effect you guys say it will, sorry.

So to answer your question, Curse isn't a very great gain so I doubt it is moved up. However, even without Curse Steelix is very dominant in UUs, so it could be just enough to push it to BL despite it not being a very helpful addition in my eyes.

It's like the Curse Skarmoy of UUs lol

 

[sims796]

O yeah, it gains Magnet Rise, but that won't help with it's fighting weakness, and the fact that EVERY FIGHTER HAS A FIRE MOVE. &%$#. I maen, every physical force has one. Leafeon doesn't count, even tough it has HP FIRE.

So yeah, it can stay where it is. It's still the safest bet to revenge kill an Outraging Mence. It means nothing, I just like saying it.

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

>_> I think the REAL discussion is why Poliwrath is still UU? I mean seriously...c'mon. Ice Punch AND Vacuum Wave? Uber. Definitely uber.

[/sarcasm] but I still love that he gets those moves

Anyway, so pretty much every electric and steel (as well as some rocks) have gotten Magnet Rise. What's your guys take on that move? I mean, will it be considered an addition on movesets for the popular likes of Metagross, Electivire, and Jolteon? Is it going to help competitive no-shows like Bastiodon or Raichu?

 

[The Hero Without a Name]

Meta already had Magnet Rise in the first place.

 

[4th Gen Matt]

I would appreciate if you would stop saying I don't know how the tiers work. I am 100% knowledgeable on how they work.

Anyway, what does everyone think of Kingdra being moved to OU?

It has gotten a lot more attention in Platinum. I think it was a good move, the thing was a beast on Rain Dance teams before Platinum and it is certainly a beast now in Platinum.

I agree with it.

Oh, and how does Miltank have no counters?

Infernape use Close Combat.
Miltank fainted.

 

[BeachBoy]

I would appreciate if you would stop saying I don't know how the tiers work. I am 100% knowledgeable on how they work.

Anyway, what does everyone think of Kingdra being moved to OU?

It has gotten a lot more attention in Platinum. I think it was a good move, the thing was a beast on Rain Dance teams before Platinum and it is certainly a beast now in Platinum.

I agree with it.

Oh, and how does Miltank have no counters?

Infernape use Close Combat.
Miltank fainted.

Wait, why ISN'T Kingdra OU? Because it certainly is now, and I'll change it now... unless someone has a point to make about BL? (Which I doubt) But it shreds teams in Platinum, it's OU 100%. Bulky and not easy to revenge kill, arguably the best Outrage user. Access to speed like rain, or speed and attack with Dragon Dance. So yeah, it's easily OU material.

And countering is switching in and taking the hit, Matt. But I don't know much about Miltank, so can't say much. :x

 

[Noir Lancer]

Donphan claimed as OU is really bugging me....

I still personally think basing decision off usage above all really was a bad idea from the beginning, and should be based off actual usefulness and potency before absolutely anything else, but that's my humble opinion anyway... =/


EDIT: Absol is BL now, Superpower and whatnot

 

[Dark Azelf]

Added Skymin to OU (Although i understand this is suspect now, so maybe i should of left it until testing is finished, but technically its more than guaranteed OU.)

Added Giratina- O to Uber

Those are pretty much guaranteed tier placements. Speak up if you feel otherwise.

Rotom - C (Cut)
Rotom - F (Freezer)
Rotom - H (Heat)
Rotom - S (Spin)
Rotom - W (Wash)


All the above are up for debate on where they belong. I think the general consensus is that they are ALL OU bar Rotom -S and possibly Rotom -F who will be BL ?

Aerodactly moved up to OU, since it is, based on usage.

Moved Shedinja to UU same reason as above.

Moved Gallade to OU, same as above.


Issues for debate : -

Abomasnow : - OU or BL ?

Alakazam : - Well apparently its usage is high enough for ou, but meh, opinions ?

Donphan : - Up for discussion for OU or BL i feel.

Dusknoir : - Read Above

Electivire : - Do i even need to say anything lol ? Another "BL or OU issue ?"

Porygon-Z : - Read Above

Umbreon : - Read Above

Articuno : - UU. ?

Crobat : - I understand this is used alot as a lead.

Miltank : - This is UU, however i understand it causes some issues.

Venusaur : - Read above.

Weezing : - UU ?



I would like opinions on most of these and where they should be placed and i feel are outstanding issues to be dealt with, if you feel i missed anything let me know =p.

 

[Archer]

D_A, OU is based on usage, so the actual viability is not up for debate.

As for the BL/UU issues, I don't see a major problem with any of the questionable UUs. Miltank is the biggest one and I would assume Steelix and bulky fighters could deal with it. Weezing should be able to incapacitate it with WoW, as well...

 

[Anti]

D_A, OU is based on usage, so the actual viability is not up for debate.

I think what he's saying is that platinum has had some effects on the usages of these different pokemon.

I still think we should wait until all the hype dies down and the metagame settles in. Remember, in early DP, BulkyGyara and Electivire were spammed and Rampardos and Rhyperior were going to change the game in many peoples' eyes. I think we should just wait.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I think what he's saying is that platinum has had some effects on the usages of these different pokemon.

I still think we should wait until all the hype dies down and the metagame settles in. Remember, in early DP, BulkyGyara and Electivire were spammed and Rampardos and Rhyperior were going to change the game in many peoples' eyes. I think we should just wait.

Pretty much.

Im also trying to kinda compromise usefulness and usage since otherwise whats the point in our own tier list (As we are not differentiating ourselves from how other tier lists are worked/decided)? We might aswell just Copy and Paste Smogons and call it a day, then i can lock this lol.


But yeah with the Rotoms and Skymin ill probably wait until usage statistics are out for next month.

 

[Archer]

Pretty much.

Im also trying to kinda compromise usefulness and usage since otherwise whats the point in our own tier list (As we are not differentiating ourselves from how other tier lists are worked/decided)? We might aswell just Copy and Paste Smogons and call it a day, then i can lock this lol.


But yeah with the Rotoms and Skymin ill probably wait until usage statistics are out for next month.

Fair enough, I see what you're saying. We should probably factor in potential to the BL/OU dispute. I was talking to X-Act on Smogon (He set up the BL/OU split stats) and he agrees that the Rotoms should be OU, but there's no accurate stats to base it on. You can't add the forms, as people have been using All-Rotom Teams.

 

[BeachBoy]

Agreeing with Anti, we should wait until the metagame stabilizes to pull the trigger on anything.

 

[Archer]

Agreeing with Anti, we should wait until the metagame stabilizes to pull the trigger on anything.

This is true for everything except the Rotom Appliances, which need to be removed from UU, they work perfectly in OU and I assume they are over-powered for UU.

What I am saying, is that BL/OU changes can wait. UU/BL is far more important to get right.