Sick of Ash?

[Icє]

I'm tired of Ash. He's just gotten boring and dumber over the years.

 

[Trap-Eds]

Tate/Lisa, Well, you already know about Thunder Armor, so I'm not even going to bother.

Yeah, when I first saw that I thought, "What the heck; did Pikachu and Swellow turn shiny or something??" But I don't think that makes Ash a bad trainer.

If anything, we should be mad at the writers, not him. The writers and dubbers are the ones that make him so..."bad" or whatever. :cheeky:

 

[Artemis]

I actually agree....why are we blaming ASH, when it is the writers that make him do and say what he does in the show?
But still, I would have to keep Ash, because if we start off with someone new we'll just be going though what Ash did...really...

 

[ShadowDeeps]

The writer's volition is the writer's volition, duly-noted or not. I still think Ash has matured admirably despite his ever prevalently firm, impetuous, and intiating nature in the duration of the series and has had some good heroic exploits (especially in the movies). He's only an adolescent human (if not younger, but I wouldn't think such as of recent), and he can't exactly save everyone (though, that may fall into the altercation of whether anyone can be saved or whether one can just offer choices and options, but that's off-topic to the thread at issue) or win that many Pokémon battles. I also like his ever strengthened bond with Pikachu and his other Pokémon in general. I know many tend to querulously note that Ash's Johto starters were "abandoned" by him but at least Ash paid emotional heed to them. I think Ash has a generally good character complex.

Back to judging character, I think it's less the character and more how the character is used. As stated before, many inadequancies can be fulfilled through potential that lay untapped.
​

 

[HeidiMoose]

I don't think the show would have the right kind of "feel" to it without Ash.
He does get annoying from time to time, but the plot is based around his "goal" to be a Pokemon Master.

I've read some replies and it seems as though a good number of people are irritated with him because he never wins a league..
You also have to put into factor that when he starts in a new region, he gets new pokemon and works to make them stronger, ultimately in some way, shape or form, acts as though he's starting over (in which he literally does in Hoenn and Sinnoh, minus Pikachu of course), just like when we have to start over when playing a new game for the first time.
If he stuck with his original team he had throughout the first season, he'd definetely be more likely to win a league championship.

Personally, I think that the show is missing a certain "element" by having dropped Misty. Adding new characters wasn't a bad idea, but I think that Misty played an important role, and after being in so many seasons since episode one, losing her took away from the show.
I was glad when they brought Brock back. I didn't mind Tracey, but without Brock around to admire the girls and to throw in his wierd style of humor, the show was lacking in some kind of element in that department as well.

I think adding people like May and Dawn has taken away from the original plot of Ash trying to be a Pokemon Master, as they somehow manage to push him out of the spotlight somewhat and the show partly concentrates on Contests, instead of Pokemon Battles. I think it's cool that they decided to add another element to the Pokemon world by doing so, but they did it in such a way that takes away from the original plot.

However, routine can get boring, and after so many seasons of the same old "let's get another gym badge, let's lose the pokemon league, Oh no! Pikachu's been captured by Team Rocket let's blow their machine/balloon up with Pikachu's Thundershock" outline of almost every episode can get tiresome.

Pokemon Chronicles was a good thing, but again, takes away from the actual story.


All in all, I still think that the original Anime, moreso Season 1, is and will always remain the best of the Anime.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I actually agree....why are we blaming ASH, when it is the writers that make him do and say what he does in the show?

I think blaming the writers is just too easy for me. I mean, besides, people blamed the gods back in the Graeco-roman period of time for terrible things that were caused by mortals. blaming the Writers for something Ash did is a similar case.

But still, I would have to keep Ash, because if we start off with someone new we'll just be going though what Ash did...really...

Funny thing is, when they replaced May with a new girl of the generation, we're just going through what May did. Ironic, eh?

I don't think the show would have the right kind of "feel" to it without Ash.
He does get annoying from time to time, but the plot is based around his "goal" to be a Pokemon Master.

Well, technically, the plot involves capturing critters and trying to accomplish being the worlds best master/coordinator/WPM/breeder/apprenticemanship, it never was focused exclusively on Ash.

I've read some replies and it seems as though a good number of people are irritated with him because he never wins a league..
You also have to put into factor that when he starts in a new region, he gets new pokemon and works to make them stronger, ultimately in some way, shape or form, acts as though he's starting over (in which he literally does in Hoenn and Sinnoh, minus Pikachu of course), just like when we have to start over when playing a new game for the first time.

Yeah, I know, but I wished that he would meet those same difficulties in regards to beating the Hoeen Gym leaders (I mean, he took them down with as much difficulty as most of his JJM encounters, meaning they weren't even much of a fight. I mean, if this was his Kanto or even his Johto team, I can understand that. But this was his hoenn team, which, as you noted, was a newbie team aside from Pikachu, which even it got pretty cheap wins in that saga.)

If he stuck with his original team he had throughout the first season, he'd definetely be more likely to win a league championship.

That, or if they actually made the Hoenn gym leaders actually challenging for Ash instead of being portrayed as JJM-style joke opponents for the most part.

Personally, I think that the show is missing a certain "element" by having dropped Misty. Adding new characters wasn't a bad idea, but I think that Misty played an important role, and after being in so many seasons since episode one, losing her took away from the show.

I thought that as well. Heck, I figured, if you wanted to remove Misty because of things, why didn't you write EVERYONE off?

I was glad when they brought Brock back. I didn't mind Tracey, but without Brock around to admire the girls and to throw in his wierd style of humor, the show was lacking in some kind of element in that department as well.

Well, personally, I never liked how he admired girls (it made both genders look bad.). I may be straight, but that doesn't mean that I should be a total... well... swinger like Brock.

I think adding people like May and Dawn has taken away from the original plot of Ash trying to be a Pokemon Master, as they somehow manage to push him out of the spotlight somewhat and the show partly concentrates on Contests, instead of Pokemon Battles. I think it's cool that they decided to add another element to the Pokemon world by doing so, but they did it in such a way that takes away from the original plot.

I agree, plus, in Hoenn, it made his wins against Gyms like sitting through a TR battle (as he beats them in a way similar to how they "blast off" TR)

However, routine can get boring, and after so many seasons of the same old "let's get another gym badge, let's lose the pokemon league, Oh no! Pikachu's been captured by Team Rocket let's blow their machine/balloon up with Pikachu's Thundershock" outline of almost every episode can get tiresome.

I agree, and due to some peoples mention that they removed Misty because of her getting stale, I should point out "if that's the case, why didn't they remove Ash, Brock, and Team Rocket a long time ago?"

Pokemon Chronicles was a good thing, but again, takes away from the actual story.

True

All in all, I still think that the original Anime, moreso Season 1, is and will always remain the best of the Anime.

Also True.

 

[ShadowDeeps]

I don't think the show would have the right kind of "feel" to it without Ash.
He does get annoying from time to time, but the plot is based around his "goal" to be a Pokemon Master.

I've read some replies and it seems as though a good number of people are irritated with him because he never wins a league..
You also have to put into factor that when he starts in a new region, he gets new pokemon and works to make them stronger, ultimately in some way, shape or form, acts as though he's starting over (in which he literally does in Hoenn and Sinnoh, minus Pikachu of course), just like when we have to start over when playing a new game for the first time.
If he stuck with his original team he had throughout the first season, he'd definetely be more likely to win a league championship.

Personally, I think that the show is missing a certain "element" by having dropped Misty. Adding new characters wasn't a bad idea, but I think that Misty played an important role, and after being in so many seasons since episode one, losing her took away from the show.
I was glad when they brought Brock back. I didn't mind Tracey, but without Brock around to admire the girls and to throw in his wierd style of humor, the show was lacking in some kind of element in that department as well.

I think adding people like May and Dawn has taken away from the original plot of Ash trying to be a Pokemon Master, as they somehow manage to push him out of the spotlight somewhat and the show partly concentrates on Contests, instead of Pokemon Battles. I think it's cool that they decided to add another element to the Pokemon world by doing so, but they did it in such a way that takes away from the original plot.

However, routine can get boring, and after so many seasons of the same old "let's get another gym badge, let's lose the pokemon league, Oh no! Pikachu's been captured by Team Rocket let's blow their machine/balloon up with Pikachu's Thundershock" outline of almost every episode can get tiresome.

Pokemon Chronicles was a good thing, but again, takes away from the actual story.


All in all, I still think that the original Anime, moreso Season 1, is and will always remain the best of the Anime.

I agree with this. Misty might not have received the heroine limelight like May and Dawn have (and I did sort of like the mentor role Ash evolved into) but before Misty became monotonous background for Ash's actions like Brock did for everyone else she had a multifaceted nature and dynamic complexity that May and Dawn lack by my eyes. She's far more distinguished and memorable as a character, though I do agree that Togepi sort of subdued her more fiery tones but did bring out a more sensitive aspect. And I also hold the first season in high esteem, above all the others as of now. I always have.

Nevertheless, I feel Ash's best dynamics as far as girls have gone is with Misty. The two compliment one to the other with their firm, fixed, easily aroused yet dulled nature - both bring out the best of one another but both make their own flaws glaring. Misty may not pursue Pokémon training like Ash does (though she does have her own preferences as a water Pokémon trainer, obviously), but I felt she was a good character that haplessly was shafted away in the Johto seasons. I did enjoy her cameos and brief returns in the Hoenn seasons but I ultimately felt that the treatment she received was not very gratifying.

 

[Jorah]

I think blaming the writers is just too easy for me. I mean, besides, people blamed the gods back in the Graeco-roman period of time for terrible things that were caused by mortals. blaming the Writers for something Ash did is a similar case.

...

Nice randomness. Gods do not exist. The did nothing as they are not real. The writers, however, are real. They write the show. Ash is a fictional character who does not write the show.

Well, technically, the plot involves capturing critters and trying to accomplish being the worlds best master/coordinator/WPM/breeder/apprenticemanship, it never was focused exclusively on Ash.

Although the anime is advertising the games, we have always followed Ash's story. The whole programme is basically about watching Ash continue on his journey. Yeah, they could switch him with someone else, but so far the story is about Ash's journey to become a master. Now it's not so focused on Ash because of contests, but neither May nor Dawn are quite equal with Ash, but have came closer than any other twerp

That, or if they actually made the Hoenn gym leaders actually challenging for Ash instead of being portrayed as JJM-style joke opponents for the most part.

The only cheap wins I can remember is the psychic gym with Swellow and the electric gym, haven't watch Advanced Challenge. The rest were definatly more than a TR style battle. I remember he lost to the 2nd person, not much else

I thought that as well. Heck, I figured, if you wanted to remove Misty because of things, why didn't you write EVERYONE off?

To see the end of Ash's journey. If we didn't, that would've been a waste of 5 years watching him

 

[Sonikku]

he's cool for now but more gary whould be nice:cer_love::pink_love:

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

...

Nice randomness. Gods do not exist. The did nothing as they are not real. The writers, however, are real. They write the show. Ash is a fictional character who does not write the show.

Actually, it's been hinted via archaeological evidence and other things that the Graeco-roman gods did actually exist (plus, there's the fact that archaeological evidence that the Judeo-Christian God exists as well.), however, it doesn't necessarily mean that these gods (save for the JC God, but I'm only saying this due to my being christian.) are believed in. Just because something's real doesn't mean that it is to be believed. I mean, take the Nazi concentration/death camps, for example. That was an undeniably real and horrifying event, and yet there are actually some people who don't believe that it actually happened (7th Heaven had an episode referencing this fact, where Simon was trying to get a neighbor to try and reveal her experiences due to the fact that a classmate of his stated that he and his father think that the Death Camps never actually happened and were make believe.).

]QUOTE]Although the anime is advertising the games, we have always followed Ash's story. The whole programme is basically about watching Ash continue on his journey. Yeah, they could switch him with someone else, but so far the story is about Ash's journey to become a master. Now it's not so focused on Ash because of contests, but neither May nor Dawn are quite equal with Ash, but have came closer than any other twerp[/QUOTE]

Meh, not really. I mean, ALL of the people in Ash's group, not just Ash himself, has been referred to as the main protagonists, the heroes, the main characters, and others. Really, it was never quite focused on Ash to begin with (otherwise, why isn't the show named "Ash Ketchum's Journey", or why is it that they went as far as to have the Narrator label everyone in Ash's Group "Our Heroes" when they could have easily said "Our hero and his sidekicks"?)

The only cheap wins I can remember is the psychic gym with Swellow and the electric gym, haven't watch Advanced Challenge. The rest were definatly more than a TR style battle. I remember he lost to the 2nd person, not much else

Read this, as Chaosblazer actually pointed these out and revealed as to how Hoenn's battles aren't actually spectacular:

Now let's get to hoenn.
Let's start with Brawly, no one can look me in the eyes with an unbaised face and tell me that Treecko simply pounding Hariyama on the foot makes it weak enough to get beaten by one pound to the face, Treecko was good, but not that good, if Corphish had hit it more times, then i might have been inclined to think it legit, but that was not the case, not to mention Ash once again was able to take advantage of a different terrain to win instead of the gym's battleground.

Next up is Wattson, on one half this battle was rushed due to an inadvertain charge up which yes is cheap, but on the other hand, Wattson deserved every single bit of it for playing jokes, personally i'm neutral but i can see why people would regard this battle as cheap, of course i still don't see why people think the later battle between manetric and torkoal was seen as a "rematch" because if it was wouldn't Ash's badge had been on the line?

Norman is next, up till when Grovyle and Slaking went at it the fight was ok, but i'll say this, if Overgrow can allow a pokemon that much power after hardly doing crap the entire battle then if Charizard (or potential infernape) are able to master blaze, they will be untouchable gods, that is just how cheap that battle ending was, now if Grovyle had hit more leaf blades, again we wouldn't have an issue, but it was ONE leaf blade, come freaking on.

Winona:yet another final round folly, one that spanded beyond the forums and even onto gamefaqs, it was that infamous, Swellow takes hit after hit after hit, and suddenly one wing attack ko'es the opposing Swellow? I call bs to the max there, heck Grovyle beating Altaria was more legit than this was.

Tate and Liza:Need i bring up the thunder armor ordeal, not to mention once again a terrain change for Ash's edge--;

The only one whose cheap win WASN'T actually covered by Chaosblazer is the Roxanne one, as I was the only one who saw that as cheap. I mean, even you have to admit that having Pikachu absorb Hyper Beam (Yes, the original raw did actually refer to that attack as Hyper beam, not Zap cannon), recovering it's health, and batting it away is extremely cheap. I mean, if it could bat away Nosepass away that easily, why didn't he try to do that right at the beginning of the match instead of nearing the end of the episode. Really, stop letting your Ash/hoenn bias blind you to the actual content of the battles. I'm sorry for being harsh, but it really grits my teeth when people claim that the Hoenn battles, for the most part, were flawless, when it seems to actually not be the case.

To see the end of Ash's journey. If we didn't, that would've been a waste of 5 years watching him

Err, May hadn't even completed her Journey, yet they axed her out despite that. Misty also hasn't completed her journey, and she also had been axed out. Heck, Red didn't even complete HIS journey in "Pokemon Special', yet they axed him out anyways.

 

[Vernikova]

Axing May was one of the most intelligent things the writers did. Her character would've gone stale in Diamond and Pearl. Also in the Japanese version, the text refers to Ash's journey(Now Ash and Dawn's IIRC).

Another thing which really bothered me, don't say an opinion is a fact because it's an opinion.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Axing May was one of the most intelligent things the writers did. Her character would've gone stale in Diamond and Pearl. Also in the Japanese version, the text refers to Ash's journey(Now Ash and Dawn's IIRC).

Another thing which really bothered me, don't say an opinion is a fact because it's an opinion.

Let me guess, you're... Piplup from BMGf, right? I mean, you're sounding quite similar to him.

Also, about the text thing, I don't really buy it (Especially since they put that into the openings that don't even focus on him. Brock's Paradise and the various Team Rocket openings comes to mind.)

Also, in regards to opinions not being facts, considering how there aren't any ACTUAL in-universe facts about the Show, opinions = facts in this case.

 

[Vernikova]

I'm not on Bmgf, so I'm not "Piplup". Also, when I was refering to the fact statement, I meant you saying that Kanto was the best with:

Also true.

. You regarded it as a fact when it's an opinion.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I'm not on Bmgf, so I'm not "Piplup". Also, when I was refering to the fact statement, I meant you saying that Kanto was the best with: . You regarded it as a fact when it's an opinion.

Well, actually, it's not an opinion, as the ratings on both Japan and USA labeled it as being the Best saga, so really, it's a fact. Though I'm glad to hear you're not Piplup, since that guy's annoying (I only thought you were him, since he was the only one on the site who mentions that piece of text as a reason why Dawn can't leave the main cast.).

Speaking of Ratings, did you know that the actual ratings of both AG and DP actually rank it as being the worst sagas ever? Heck, according to both the ratings of the USA AND Japan, they were also even lower than Johto, the saga reputed to be the worst saga ever. Ask Nickstr if you don't believe me, since he's the one who found those figures.

I also noticed that the actual Box office revinue of The Sky Bouquet in Japan was actually lower than Pokemon Heroes:

I mean, according to a certain source (People don't usually believe Wikipedia, but then again, Bulbapedia's box office revinue of Sky's Bouquet and Wikipedia's box office revinue of Sky's bouquet was the same, so...), Pokemon Heroes made the Yen equivalent of $20,121,538 in the Box office, ranking it as the lowest Pokemon film Box office revinue ever.

Now, let's get to the Sky's Bouquet. The Box office revinue of that film was ¥1,018,770,000, which equates to $9,463,400 in the US.), so, going by what is said here, Giratina and the Sky Bouquet actually made LESS money than the the supposed flop, Pokemon Heroes.

However, it's still not really Ash's journey. It's actually All of Ash's friends journeys (Especially since even the Narrator also labeled his friends as "Our Heroes" occasionally since Kanto).

 

[Vernikova]

I think Diamond and Pearl is better than Kanto. There, it's an opinion now. Anyway,certain things can altmdr ratings. Such as that Neilson ratings aren't counting everyone, the show moved from free tv, etc.

Let's go away from the dub and stick to the original for narration. But the text refers that they are following the quest of so-and-so. Also, let's not forget that Darkrai beat out Nick and Disney when it came out.

But I digress. Ash is our topic here, not ratings and money.

 

[Lelouch99]

I want them to keep Ash but bring back Misty.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I think Diamond and Pearl is better than Kanto. There, it's an opinion now. Anyway,certain things can altmdr ratings. Such as that Neilson ratings aren't counting everyone, the show moved from free tv, etc.

Let's go away from the dub and stick to the original for narration. But the text refers that they are following the quest of so-and-so. Also, let's not forget that Darkrai beat out Nick and Disney when it came out.

But I digress. Ash is our topic here, not ratings and money.

Right, we should keep it on Ash.

Ok, and since we are staying away from the dub, considering how Dogasu would usually comment on something general in the General edits section (like change of openings, music, or if he actually did this, even Narrator openings) don't you think that Dogasu would comment on it if the whole "Our Heroes" line was never present in the original? I'm inclined to think that, since he didn't comment on it in the general edits sections, it's pretty much a direct translation, or at least a close enough translation. (It does deal with the original, as it deals with translations of Japanese to english.)

BTW, what are Neilson ratings?

 

[Vernikova]

Neilson ratings are the current ratings system in America. To be counted in the ratings, you need a Nielson box installed. Note that many people don't have one. For example, an episode a week or two ago got a 2.1/7 or something around there. The Toon Zone Forums' Cartoon Network section usually report these for CN, Nick, Disney, and T. Disney. Free tv also uses this. So if you don't know have a box, then....

Anyway, ask Dogasu on the whole text thing when you see him next time if you don't mind.

 

[Gars129]

They rate the TV viewings in the US.

 

[Vernikova]

On topic about Ash, it would be sad to see Ash go. Especially if he leaves before Brock.