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What kind of Ash do you want?

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15
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  • Age 31
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A Pokemon Master was also someone who caught every Pokemon in the world at one point. The role of Pokemon Master is still vague and I don't really think we'll really see what they mean by it until the end of the show, whenever that'll be.

To be all variations of Ash is well... Ash. The roots of who is he is always pretty much there, and they some other aspects just jump out more than other depend on the situation. And even in BW! some aspects of Ash had grown from OS so I can never completely understand why people insist that OS Ash is better. Sure, BW was kinda super dumb because they made the mistake of a 'super reset' (more so than the other regions) but he had still grown from his past self in some aspects.

To help me with the whole 'forgot things he shouldn't have' yadda yadda arguments that people seem to have with BW I sort of just think that his mind was just on vacation mode. After all, he did originally go to Unova in order to go on vacation with his mom. And on top of that, most of his Pokemon seemed to have a lot less battling experience and had more to learn than past generations. Even first generation Bulbasaur protected a village, Squirtle was part of a squad, and so on and so forth.

But that's just how I see things and I'm sure most will disagree with me. vOv
 
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Spoiler:

And how do you know Ash is ''Everyman'' Character ? Do You think Pokemon is an Anime suitable for Everyman Character.
Pokemon is an Kids Anime about an Imaginary world with magical Creature ! The whole world isn't normal . Its not the type of Anime Which suited for everyman and also Ash shown a lot of ability a 10 old boy shouldn't have .
Remember , Ash has Aura Reading ability , Special Bond with Legendary Pokemon and A Infernape with Overpowered Blaze. Plus Some althetic thing he did was impossible for Normal 10 year old Kids . An Everyman is someone who doesn't process any Special Skill , Knowledge & ability that transcend normal human.
Also , You keep trying to proclaim Pokemon's theme to be ''There always Someone better'' ! Aren't you just using your own made up theme .
I mean , I can Say ''Pokemon is About Underdog can become Super strong'' ! But This won't make it true.
POKEMON ANIME DOESN'T HAVE A THEME ! IT JUST ABOUT SELLING MERCHANDISE.
Ash being OP isn't a Stupid idea ! The Stupid thing is That Ash is still 10 despite 5 year has passed in Anime Universe . Just like ''Crayon Shin-Chan''
Crayon Shin-Chan are like ''The Simpsons'' . Its a Kids Anime aimed toward Adults . Its has a lot joke and scene that not suitable for Kids Anime .
The Main Character Shin-Chan was 5 year before his sister was born . And he's still 5 year old after his Sister 2nd Birthday .
So , Do You think ''Pokemon'' is suppose to be like ''Crayon Shin-Chan'' ??? A Gag Anime with no Continuity.
There are many theories about Ash's Agelessness But nobody care about Shin-Chan because everyone know its a Gag Series without Continuity So they except it .
But There just so many pun or Theory related to Ash's Agelessness ! Its Because Pokemon never suppose to have an Ageless Protagonist Yet Ash is Ageless and will remain Ageless for probably another 20 year.
But You know , Why Writer doesn't age Ash ? Because they afraid of big drop on Merchandise sales by aging & replacing him.
Do You even know what kind of Anime Pokemon Suppose to be ? Animes like Yugioh , Inazuma Eleven , Beyblade , Gundam Build Fight ete . Anime About A Protagonist trying to achieve a Goal involving Imaginary Creature Or Toys .
Those Protagonist become stronger & achieve their goal and then They move on while passing the Torch to Someone else.
But That not happening with Ash because Merchandise sales is more important for that Anime.
So stop using made-up theme.
Because This show will do anything & Everything to sell Merchandise.


And It was a Bad idea for Ash to lose 6vs2 to Paul 1 year before that League . Kids Would have been interested in Ash & Paul League battle from the start .
But Writer put drama ! Unfortunately Pokemon is a Kids Anime , Not a Drama Show . There is limit to how much drama you can put in a Kids Anime.

And Overpower Character are popular despite the criticism ! Writers does need to handle the story .
If Ash become OP Protagonist Then Writer would need to create even OP Rival. Because They can't just create another trash like Trip if Ash is OP .
For Example , Dragonball Z
When Goku become Strongest in the World , The show Brought Enemies From Out of The World . When Goku became the strongest in the Universe , The Show Brought enemies from the Future . And When Goku overcome them then the Show Brought Enemies from Another Universe.
That's how You Handle a OP Protagonist.

Also, Just because Rivals stand in Ash's way doesn't mean he's an Antagonist.
I mean , Cyrus Or Giovanni doesn't stand in Ash's way ! Does that mean None of them are Antagonist.
Paul is nothing more then a rival with Different Mindset then Ash .

You ever Watch Digimon Adventure 02 ! I will show the Difference between Original Ash & DP Ash.
DP Ash is like Devis (Digimon) who transform into TK (Digimon) .
And Devis transforming into TK isn't Development.
Ash being still Kind & Selfless mean nothing because its a requirement for a Protagonist to be Kind & Selfless . If Alain turn out to be Kind , Caring & Selfless like Ash then would you say he just like Ash Since Alain's Cold attitude is like Paul or Trip.
Also , I watched ''The Simpson'' and Bart still a Badboy like he always was While Lisa is still the Goody Good Girl despite being worst then Bart.

But none of those would adapt the "collect the badges" aspect of the games, which is what Satoshi is really there for. If he's not doing that, then his worth as the franchise's main character is gone. I also don't care for seeing what a Pokémon Master is. The idea doesn't make a lot of sense given that this is a world where "there's always someone better", and I'd honestly rather it remain a mystery. But that's just me.

I would prefer Satoshi to just be retired. Have him win a League, set off for his next adventure, and just start over with a different protagonist. But as long as the anime is still using him to collect Gym badges, then that journey should be written as a challenge for him.
And Why does Ash has to collect Badge ?? This Anime is about Introducing New Pokemon , Not Gym Badge.
Honestly , If Ash already a League champion then he should have to straggle to collect Gym Badge.
He can just have a Pratice battle against them.
Also , Since Your trying to use Real life Theme & Sport , Let me told you the Ultimate truth--
--Nothing Last Forever--
If You One of those People who think Pokemon can go Forever & Ever by repeating the Same Story Over & Over , Then Remeber this that Someday This ''Same old Story'' will run out its juice and Writer/Director have to do Something Completely New to save the Anime-Series.

Because Thats How Reality Works.
 
Last edited:
2,688
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A Pokemon Master was also someone who caught every Pokemon in the world at one point. The role of Pokemon Master is still vague and I don't really think we'll really see what they mean by it until the end of the show, whenever that'll be.

Other than the commercials, I don't think it was ever hinted that Ash had to collect every single Pokémon to be a Pokémon Master. They do mention collecting several Pokémon a few times in early Kanto, particularly on Ash and Gary's end, though it is never made clear whether it was actually one of each or just any Pokémon they can find regardless of whether they technically already have it. Remember, counting the herd of thirty Tauros and Pokémon he had released, he had about 40 Pokémon, 45 if we count evolutions. Gary by the end of Kanto had 200 Pokémon, and considering that there were at most 149 accounted-for Pokémon in Kanto (not counting Mewtwo or possibly Mew, especially after the events of Battle of the Badge where Mewtwo is not even recognized in the Pokedex at all), plus five Johto Pokémon (Six counting Ho-Oh), it's extremely unlikely he got all 150 Pokémon, especially not Legendaries. If anything, even in Kanto, there was more emphasis on getting badges and participating in the League than getting Pokémon.

And DP did indicate that beating the Elite 4 and Champion would get you there, or at least closer to the goal.

To be all variations of Ash is well... Ash. The roots of who is he is always pretty much there, and they some other aspects just jump out more than other depend on the situation. And even in BW! some aspects of Ash had grown from OS so I can never completely understand why people insist that OS Ash is better. Sure, BW was kinda super dumb because they made the mistake of a 'super reset' (more so than the other regions) but he had still grown from his past self in some aspects.

Well, for starters, even OS Ash AFAIK (the only series I watched in full was Kanto, so please correct me if I am mistaken) never mistook what was clearly a human being for a Pokémon, unlike in BW (His first meeting with Iris had her mistaking her for an Axew despite it being extremely obvious from height alone that she's not one, not to mention they look completely different even with her mane of hair). I think the closest it's come to that was in the Kangaskhan Kid, and even that was at least justified due to Officer Jenny wearing a Chansey cap in what was clearly a sting operation against attempted poachers, and her being obscured by bushes.

To help me with the whole 'forgot things he shouldn't have' yadda yadda arguments that people seem to have with BW I sort of just think that his mind was just on vacation mode. After all, he did originally go to Unova in order to go on vacation with his mom. And on top of that, most of his Pokemon seemed to have a lot less battling experience and had more to learn than past generations. Even first generation Bulbasaur protected a village, Squirtle was part of a squad, and so on and so forth.

Yeah, and at least that actually made some of the Gym Leaders actually seem skilled, even if it came at the expense at Ash. That's at least better than in AG where Ash's Pokémon basically treated Hoenn's Gym Leaders no differently than how Ash's Caterpie treated Team Rocket despite being at a complete disadvantage (thus permanently earning them the reputation both by the fans and in-universe based on Misty's comments as being so weak and unskilled of trainers that they're not even good enough to prove that a trainer was skilled).
 
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Other than the commercials, I don't think it was ever hinted that Ash had to collect every single Pokémon to be a Pokémon Master. They do mention collecting several Pokémon a few times in early Kanto, particularly on Ash and Gary's end, though it is never made clear whether it was actually one of each or just any Pokémon they can find regardless of whether they technically already have it. Remember, counting the herd of thirty Tauros and Pokémon he had released, he had about 40 Pokémon, 45 if we count evolutions. Gary by the end of Kanto had 200 Pokémon, and considering that there were at most 149 accounted-for Pokémon in Kanto (not counting Mewtwo or possibly Mew, especially after the events of Battle of the Badge where Mewtwo is not even recognized in the Pokedex at all), plus five Johto Pokémon (Six counting Ho-Oh), it's extremely unlikely he got all 150 Pokémon, especially not Legendaries. If anything, even in Kanto, there was more emphasis on getting badges and participating in the League than getting Pokémon.

For the most part it was sorta kindaaa hinted. Or at least urged that he should catch as many Pokemon as possible if he 'wanted to be a great Pokemon trainer'. But they dropped that a long time ago and to be honest likely even dropped before the first movie. But it doesn't mean that the term "Pokemon Master" isn't still really vague. Only that Gym Leader and Elite Four are closer to that, likely because of their skill level.

Well, for starters, even OS Ash AFAIK (the only series I watched in full was Kanto, so please correct me if I am mistaken) never mistook what was clearly a human being for a Pokémon, unlike in BW (His first meeting with Iris had her mistaking her for an Axew despite it being extremely obvious from height alone that she's not one, not to mention they look completely different even with her mane of hair). I think the closest it's come to that was in the Kangaskhan Kid, and even that was at least justified due to Officer Jenny wearing a Chansey cap in what was clearly a sting operation against attempted poachers, and her being obscured by bushes.

This is simply one time (out of several in BW, I am aware) that Ash was just being super dumb for not particular reason. But I'm not looking at single instances. I'm looking at it as a whole and as a whole he did grow in someways and kept some of what he did learn in past season. The thing is, a lot of people like to look at the things he did wrong so much that it's hard for people to even remember or point out the good things. And I'dimagine it'd be even harder for someone who hadn't even watched it because hey, it's sometimes the little things that are actually the most important.

( And also, at least he noted that it looked a bit different from the Pokedex image. He wasn't that blind. I guess one can argue that it was his excitement that got the best of him because DRAGON TYPE THAT'S RARE but vOv just one of those things you can look at in several ways).



Yeah, and at least that actually made some of the Gym Leaders actually seem skilled, even if it came at the expense at Ash. That's at least better than in AG where Ash's Pokémon basically treated Hoenn's Gym Leaders no differently than how Ash's Caterpie treated Team Rocket despite being at a complete disadvantage (thus permanently earning them the reputation both by the fans and in-universe based on Misty's comments as being so weak and unskilled of trainers that they're not even good enough to prove that a trainer was skilled).

I'd admit that I haven't watched much of AG (which is why I don't look to that very often until I have watched it), but yeah. I think sometimes people forget about the skill level of the Pokemon? And let's be real the fact that Ash can take pretty much any Pokemon at any skill level and help them out and help them become stronger, no matter how long it takes, is a good thing about his character.

And (Famon because I am too lazy to quote) I didn't read most of your post I will admit but re: the end reality also doesn't have us steadily growing and not having us go in rollarcoasters. We all forget simple things, make dumb mistakes, so on and so forth. And most importantly: there is always someone better than us. And that's important.
 
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A Pokemon Master was also someone who caught every Pokemon in the world at one point. The role of Pokemon Master is still vague and I don't really think we'll really see what they mean by it until the end of the show, whenever that'll be.
Other than the commercials, I don't think it was ever hinted that Ash had to collect every single Pokémon to be a Pokémon Master.

There are some missing hint--

--Episode 5 (Showdown at Pewter City) , Ash visit Pewter city Pokemon center where Nurse Joy directed him toward a Regional League Poster that said ''Todays Trainers are Tomorrows Pokemon Master''.

EP5055.jpg


--
Episode 107 (Charizard Chills) , At the end of the Episode the Narrator Said ''Every Pokemon trainers eventual Goal is to be a Pokemon Master''


--
At The Final Episode of DP , Ash explained his Goal to beat Cynthia and Becoming a Champion Master. Now ether he changed his Goal or Pokemon Master is same as Champion Master.

I think The Definition of Pokemon Master Is already explained .
 

Lizardo

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  • Age 33
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I'm getting the impression that you don't really understand what the primary function of the "everyman" character is. He's a proxy for the audience, someone relatable enough that they can bring the audience (children, in the case of Pocket Monsters) into their world. This is what Satoshi does, and why I refer to him as an "everyman". The world of Pocket Monsters obviously isn't normal, which is why a character who the audience can use as their proxy (i.e. the "everyman") is necessary. Satoshi is that character. And when it comes to other Pokémon trainers, Satoshi isn't remarkable. Like anyone else he has to grow, he has to make mistakes, and he has to learn lessons. He doesn't have special powers that give him an advantage over anyone else. Aura was a gimmick used once in a movie and two or three times in DP and promptly discarded. Satoshi isn't the only character to bond with legendary Pokémon (Masato has too, are we going to assume he's special as well?) or perform physical feats, and no one in the show suggested that any of that makes him special. As far as the characters in the anime go, Satoshi is a normal 10-year old boy.

And no, the theme of "there's always someone better" isn't made up, it's actually been said in the anime and demonstrated several times over. It's why Satoshi, as well as the other characters, have to keep training and getting stronger. They can never be content with where they are because the world is a big place, and there are always new people and new Pokémon with abilities that they've never seen. But since you tried to tell me "the ultimate truth" (which is hilariously nonsensical, by the way), allow me to tell you a basic fact of life as well: no matter what it is you decide to do, no matter how skilled you become at doing that thing, there will always be someone better than you and there will always be something new for you to learn. It's a fact as true of the lives you and I lead as it is of Pocket Monsters. And that's why I find the idea of a "Pokémon Master" - assuming it means the ultimate Pokémon trainer - incongruent with the anime, and am content with never actually seeing Satoshi become one.

This is also why the idea of Satoshi intentionally being overpowered is a stupid one. How does this message get across in an anime where Satoshi is presented as someone who can just breeze past whatever challenge is put in front of him?

The fact that the anime primarily exists to promote the games and sell merchandise does not prevent it from having themes, or spreading messages or morals. It can, and has, done both because it's still a television show with writers behind it. Every television show or movie that's released is done so with the intention of getting more money, like Pocket Monsters. Are you going to assume that none of them can have themes as well? Your thinking is far too narrow, and I'm getting the impression that this is what the big issue is in this discussion. I'm also getting the impression that you haven't really read my posts, because if you did you would see that I think the decision to not age Satoshi (or, at the very least, not make his age ambiguous) is a stupid idea as well. But it's a fact of the franchise that's canon and we'll have to take into consideration when we're discussing this. Twenty years has not passed in the Pocket Monsters universe, and Satoshi is not at the place where he can believably breeze past other trainers.

Please, don't try to lecture me on what kind of anime Pocket Monsters is supposed to be. I've watched it just as long as you have, once as part of the age group it's targeted to and now as someone who can judge it from a more grown up perspective. I have just as good (if not, better) a grasp on what Pocket Monsters is meant to be as much as you do: a long-running children's show that adapts the plot of a series of ongoing video games by using its main characters, Satoshi and Pikachu, as avatars of the protagonists of those games who travel different regions to collect Gym badges, along the way meeting new kinds of Pokémon and trainers. It's because I understand what kind of anime Pocket Monsters is trying to be that I don't compare it to Dragonball or Yu-Gi-Oh. The anime isn't Yu-Gi-Oh, the writers aren't trying to make it Yu-Gi-Oh, and just because Yu-Gi-Oh does things one way with its own batch of characters doesn't mean that Pocket Monsters has to proceed in the same fashion. And Yu-Gi-Oh promotes merchandise, too. Should we assume that every theme in it is "made-up" as well?

Now I'm getting the impression that you don't understand what it truly means to be an overpowered character. And overpowered character is a victim of lazy writing that has him breeze past challenges in a manner than kills the conflict in a story. I don't care how many people like said character, it's terrible writing! Stories are driven by conflict, an overpowered character kills that conflict. If your character still has believable challenges, then he is not overpowered. Can you please stop with the stupid popularity argument? Not only is it inherently stupid, because you should never base your opinions on what other people like, I very much doubt that you've really done the exhaustive research to really prove your claims (no, random polls on the Internet in and of themselves don't count).

Yet another impression I'm getting is that you don't really understand what an antagonist is, and the sad thing is that you'd even just Google the world you'd find a definition: An antagonist is a character, group of characters, or institution that represents the opposition against which the protagonist or protagonists must contend. Now look at Shinji. As Satoshi's rival, who actively stands in his way of winning the Sinnoh League, Shinji is an antagonist. You understand? That's all an antagonist has to do: stand in opposition to the protagonist. Since Shinji does that, he's an antagonist to Satoshi. If you don't understand that, then you don't know what an antagonist is and this discussion isn't worth having with you.

Famon said:
Also , I watched ''The Simpson'' and Bart still a Badboy like he always was While Lisa is still the Goody Good Girl despite being worst then Bart.
I'm a huge fan of The Simpsons and have watched the show from the Tracey Ullman shorts all the way down to 2014. I can tell you personally that, while the idea behind the characters have mostly remained the same, they are not the same way today as they were in 1990. As a result of many different writers coming into the show, each with their own styles, the characters have undergone subtle differences in their characters. Homer was never as stupid or childish in the first season as he is now, and was a much more strict and responsible parent in 1990 than he is now. Lisa wasn't a vegetarian, and at times could be just as bad as Bart. Bart was far more childishly presented in 1990 than he is in the current days. Principal Skinner wasn't as much of a loser. Flanders wasn't as much of a Christian fanatic. And so on. As the styles changed, so did the characters. But even so, they're still the same characters as originally envisioned by Matt Groening and co.

The same thing has more or less happened with the Pocket Monsters anime franchise. The anime is no longer written in the same style as it was in the early OS days (I'll leave the question of whether or not that's a good thing up to each person individually), and you can see the way Satoshi has changed with that. In some ways, he might be a little more grown up. But in other ways, it's just the result of different writing. But the point is that he's not supposed to be a different character than in the OS days. It's just how long-running television franchise work.

Famon said:
And Why does Ash has to collect Badge ?? This Anime is about Introducing New Pokemon , Not Gym Badge.
Because, much like the games the anime is supposed to adapt, collecting Badges is the driving function of the protagonist character. For someone who asked if I even know what the anime is supposed to be, I'm surprised you'd even ask that.

Because Thats How Reality Works.
Here's the actual reality: overpowering Satoshi goes against what the story the anime is telling with his journey and will not benefit the show in any way. You can hate it all you want, but this how the Pocket Monsters anime franchise works. You can either accept that and actually judge the anime for what it is, you can continue watching the franchise and be miserable that it's not going to cater to your every taste, or you can stop watching until it becomes something else or ends (whatever comes first).

In any case, I'm tired of this argument and I can see we're never going to agree on it. So this is my last post on the subject.
 
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I'm getting the impression that you don't really understand what the primary function of the "everyman" character is. He's a proxy for the audience, someone relatable enough that they can bring the audience (children, in the case of Pocket Monsters) into their world. This is what Satoshi does, and why I refer to him as an "everyman". The world of Pocket Monsters obviously isn't normal, which is why a character who the audience can use as their proxy (i.e. the "everyman") is necessary. Satoshi is that character. And when it comes to other Pokémon trainers, Satoshi isn't remarkable. Like anyone else he has to grow, he has to make mistakes, and he has to learn lessons. He doesn't have special powers that give him an advantage over anyone else. Aura was a gimmick used once in a movie and two or three times in DP and promptly discarded. Satoshi isn't the only character to bond with legendary Pokémon (Masato has too, are we going to assume he's special as well?) or perform physical feats, and no one in the show suggested that any of that makes him special. As far as the characters in the anime go, Satoshi is a normal 10-year old boy.

I doubt "Everyman" characters are the types to see Ho-Oh (which is strongly implied to only appear before pure-hearted trainers, an exceptionally rare breed at that, which is part of the reason I hated the ending of the first Brandon episode since it appeared before characters who clearly were not pure of heart such as Brock and possibly Scott), and they most certainly aren't the types to be prophesized as exceptional trainers in Movie 2 or have Aura abilities like in DP and Movie 8, or anything like that, so I'm doubtful Ash even fits into an Everyman trope. Otherwise, he'd literally be unremarkable, not seeing Ho-Oh (which BTW, even among Legendaries, seeing one is ludicrously rare), not having Aura abilities at all, not being an exceptional trainer at all (meaning Movie 2 wouldn't happen at all since, hey, he's not an exceptional trainer, and thus he's not eligible for the prophecy). In fact, he'd be as irrelevant as an episode and the cast of Seinfeld (and this isn't meant to dig at the series, it even markets itself as being irrelevant, being the "show about nothing."). And let me make clear on something, when I say "not use them at all", I mean that literally, as in not even as a gimmick.
 
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Of course, a 10-year-old boy is just basically a kid. Not to mention that boys are way more immature than girls. So Ash should has characteristics of a 6-7 kid.
 
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I want an ash who is smarter and more responsible. He should not change his partners every season like he does, so I would like if he doesn't leaves serena the next season because they are a great team and serena likes him too so they should stick together forever. And if he gets to know the advantages of evolving pokemon and evolves them as fast as possible either by training or by stones. If this happens pokemon will become a hell lot better.
 
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I'm getting the impression that you don't really understand what the primary function of the "everyman" character is. He's a proxy for the audience, someone relatable enough that they can bring the audience (children, in the case of Pocket Monsters) into their world. This is what Satoshi does, and why I refer to him as an "everyman". The world of Pocket Monsters obviously isn't normal, which is why a character who the audience can use as their proxy (i.e. the "everyman") is necessary. Satoshi is that character. And when it comes to other Pokémon trainers, Satoshi isn't remarkable. Like anyone else he has to grow, he has to make mistakes, and he has to learn lessons. He doesn't have special powers that give him an advantage over anyone else. Aura was a gimmick used once in a movie and two or three times in DP and promptly discarded. Satoshi isn't the only character to bond with legendary Pokémon (Masato has too, are we going to assume he's special as well?) or perform physical feats, and no one in the show suggested that any of that makes him special. As far as the characters in the anime go, Satoshi is a normal 10-year old boy.


In any case, I'm tired of this argument and I can see we're never going to agree on it. So this is my last post on the subject.

And I think Your don't understand the meaning of Proxy ! Ash doesn't need to be ''Everyman'' to be a Proxy . There are other anime set in alternate universe where Protagonist manage to become a Proxy with becoming an ''Everyman''.
It might fun when the show first start But that doesn't mean Ash has to be Everyman.
Ash being Everyman mean he can't win the League Or Process Megevolution because Ash to be special to go that far.
Pokemon isn't an Like Doreamon Or Oregiru ! Pokemon is an Anime Where the Protagonist keep on getting stronger then his previous self.

A True Example would Kenichi From ''Kenichi the Strongest Disciple''. Kenichi start off as a Completely A Cowardly Normal Boy with no Special ability But he train hard to become really OP .
Do You even where Most ''Everyman'' Goes to ? In a Visual Harem Novel about A so call Normal guy getting all girl by his Kindness.

Furthermore , Discussing ''Aura'' Just because it only appeared in Movie and 2 DP Episode is the stupid way to think .
And no, the theme of "there's always someone better" isn't made up, it's actually been said in the anime and demonstrated several times over. It's why Satoshi, as well as the other characters, have to keep training and getting stronger. They can never be content with where they are because the world is a big place, and there are always new people and new Pokémon with abilities that they've never seen. But since you tried to tell me "the ultimate truth" (which is hilariously nonsensical, by the way), allow me to tell you a basic fact of life as well: no matter what it is you decide to do, no matter how skilled you become at doing that thing, there will always be someone better than you and there will always be something new for you to learn. It's a fact as true of the lives you and I lead as it is of Pocket Monsters. And that's why I find the idea of a "Pokémon Master" - assuming it means the ultimate Pokémon trainer - incongruent with the anime, and am content with never actually seeing Satoshi become one.
So Just because Something was said long before , You think it became a theme !!!
I remember Multiple Trainer saying That ''No trainer Can be Stronger without Strong Bond with Pokemon'' ! Yet A guy like Paul who doesn't believe in Bond become So Strong That So Far Only A Champion & A Trainer with Legendary Pokemon mange to Crush him.
It doesn't matter Ash beat him in League . What matter that Paul super Strong and its took One year For Ash to get One win from Him even though he had stronger Bond with Pokemon.
So Are you gonna tell me Its Okay For Paul to be Super-Strong without any Strong Bond with Pokemon Because he's Some sort of Antagonist. Even if it goes against the Theme.
This So called Theme You talk about are nothing more then Some Regular Moral You heard in a Sport Anime .
Pokemon is a Kid Anime and Its need to have Moral. Thats a requirement .

Just like , 20 year ago Pokemon Theme was ''Gotta Catch em all'' ! It can be heard every time when the Anime started But Pokemon doesn't follow that theme . Isn't it ?

Your theme is Made-Up ! Writer/Director doesn't care what they said or Demonstrated.
There So many thing Writer said in the Anime and later they did the Opposite.
They will do whatever it take for their Story.

This is also why the idea of Satoshi intentionally being overpowered is a stupid one. How does this message get across in an anime where Satoshi is presented as someone who can just breeze past whatever challenge is put in front of him?
Oh , I see ,
So Your Ideal version of Ash is Someone Who can be beaten by Anyone , Anywhere and Anytime !! Even if his Opponent is a Total Rookie Or A Complete Idiot.
Ash being OP Doesn't mean his Unbeatable Or Win every match without a straggle.
Even OP Protagonist can get their ass kicked.
Example : Izayoi (Moudaiji) The Most OP Protagonist from 2013 who got his Ass kicked by Azi Dahaka to the point that every bone in his Body broke.

Now I'm getting the impression that you don't understand what it truly means to be an overpowered character. And overpowered character is a victim of lazy writing that has him breeze past challenges in a manner than kills the conflict in a story. I don't care how many people like said character, it's terrible writing! Stories are driven by conflict, an overpowered character kills that conflict. If your character still has believable challenges, then he is not overpowered. Can you please stop with the stupid popularity argument? Not only is it inherently stupid, because you should never base your opinions on what other people like, I very much doubt that you've really done the exhaustive research to really prove your claims (no, random polls on the Internet in and of themselves don't count).
I see ,
So ''Death Note'' , ''Dragon Ball Z'' , ''Gurren Leagun'' ,''Prince Of Tennis'' , ''Comboy bepop'', ''Mahouka'' , ''Yakitate Japan'' , ''Yugioh'' etc all of them were Lazy Writing huh!

Animes like Pokemon Or Yugioh Zexal are written by hard working writer for not making their Protagonist OP.


Keeping a Protagonist Underdog for 20 year is also a Lazy Writting !!

After all , You don't have think about giving the Protagonist an Interesting Personality Or Rival when he's a underdog.
Its Much easier to give him the most Pathetic Personality and then Create some OP Rival that will appear to beat & Insult him !

Unlike OP Protagonist where you have to think of a Interesting Personality for the character to Succeed .
Plus , The Writer has to find a way to create more & More Powerful rival without using the Protagonist a Punching Bag .
Creating An Good OP Protagonist isn't easy ether.

Because, much like the games the anime is supposed to adapt, collecting Badges is the driving function of the protagonist character. For someone who asked if I even know what the anime is supposed to be, I'm surprised you'd even ask that.
The Game was Suppose to be about ''Gotta a Catch Em all''
I don't see Ash ever Catching them all !
Collecting Gym-Badge is not as important as it sound.
Specially , If Ash ever Win a League.
In that case , A League-winning Trainer is straggling to get Gym-Badge doesn't sound good.
PokeSpe and Pokemon DPA Prove that there can't better Pokemon series without collecting Gym-Badge.

The same thing has more or less happened with the Pocket Monsters anime franchise. The anime is no longer written in the same style as it was in the early OS days (I'll leave the question of whether or not that's a good thing up to each person individually), and you can see the way Satoshi has changed with that. In some ways, he might be a little more grown up. But in other ways, it's just the result of different writing. But the point is that he's not supposed to be a different character than in the OS days. It's just how long-running television franchise work.
Oh Really ,
Detective Conan , Bleach , One-Piece , Doreamon run longer as well But the character didn't become totally different person then Ash.

Yet another impression I'm getting is that you don't really understand what an antagonist is, and the sad thing is that you'd even just Google the world you'd find a definition: An antagonist is a character, group of characters, or institution that represents the opposition against which the protagonist or protagonists must contend. Now look at Shinji. As Satoshi's rival, who actively stands in his way of winning the Sinnoh League, Shinji is an antagonist. You understand? That's all an antagonist has to do: stand in opposition to the protagonist. Since Shinji does that, he's an antagonist to Satoshi. If you don't understand that, then you don't know what an antagonist is and this discussion isn't worth having with you.
That mean , Cyrus & Giovanni aren't Antagonist , Right .
After all , They never stood in Ash's Way .
Ash just travel as usual and those guy just happen to dump into him.
According to Your theory , Every Rival , Champion , E4 and Gym-Leader are Antagonist of this series because they also stand in Ash's way.
Now I think of it , Harley & Ursula were Antagonist But they hardly ever beaten May & Dawn .

Please, don't try to lecture me on what kind of anime Pocket Monsters is supposed to be. I've watched it just as long as you have, once as part of the age group it's targeted to and now as someone who can judge it from a more grown up perspective. I have just as good (if not, better) a grasp on what Pocket Monsters is meant to be as much as you do: a long-running children's show that adapts the plot of a series of ongoing video games by using its main characters, Satoshi and Pikachu, as avatars of the protagonists of those games who travel different regions to collect Gym badges, along the way meeting new kinds of Pokémon and trainers. It's because I understand what kind of anime Pocket Monsters is trying to be that I don't compare it to Dragonball or Yu-Gi-Oh. The anime isn't Yu-Gi-Oh, the writers aren't trying to make it Yu-Gi-Oh, and just because Yu-Gi-Oh does things one way with its own batch of characters doesn't mean that Pocket Monsters has to proceed in the same fashion. And Yu-Gi-Oh promotes merchandise, too. Should we assume that every theme in it is "made-up" as well?
And You not the only one who watched All Pokemon Show So don't think your special and can lecture me about Pokemon.
There are Some Anime that are made to be loved & Watched by other. But Pokemon isn't one of them! Pokemon are the type of Anime that exist to sell Merchandise.
Its the truth that Every Mature Pokemon Fans know & except .
Pokemon Company are making More Pokemon Toys & Merchandise While The Anime trying to create a good Market for them.
That how Pokemon exist .
That Why Oshawott didn't evolve ! Because It was a very Marketable Pokemon and writer doesn't want to risk evolving it.
Pokemon is at the same level as Yugioh, Digimon , Precure ,Beyblade , Inazuma Eleven etc.

Here's the actual reality: overpowering Satoshi goes against what the story the anime is telling with his journey and will not benefit the show in any way. You can hate it all you want, but this how the Pocket Monsters anime franchise works. You can either accept that and actually judge the anime for what it is, you can continue watching the franchise and be miserable that it's not going to cater to your every taste, or you can stop watching until it becomes something else or ends (whatever comes first).
Keeping up with Continuity doesn't go against the Anime .
Ash being an Ageless Normal Trainer doesn't make the show better ether !
Pokemon is the type of Anime Where The hero become Stronger & Stronger until he become a OP and leave the Show.
It doesn't matter how experience Ash was in DP Series Because he has to be stronger then his Previous Self which also mean DP Ash.
Your simply saying Ash should just remain a Normal Trainer for rest of his life.
Just like , I said
Pokemon can lest forever with the same repeated Story . Someday a new franschise will take over (Actually Yokai-Watch already started to take over)
 
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KorpiklaaniVodka

KID BUU PAWAA
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I'd like a smart and competent Ash with the ability to grow up, winning more battles, him getting a legendary (Terrakion?), oaking Pikachu and all five girls to travel with him and fawn over him.
 
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They should've replaced Ash back during the OS (Kanto) era. I don't see the point of keeping him as the main protagonist for 20 years (speaking of which, I ran across a post on Bulbagarden, talking about the possibility of Ash being retired/removed from the anime on its 20th anniversary).
 
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I'd like a smart and competent Ash with the ability to grow up, winning more battles, him getting a legendary (Terrakion?), oaking Pikachu and all five girls to travel with him and fawn over him.

I don't think Misty's quite the type to fawn anyone, even him. Not to say she definitely doesn't have feelings for him, because there are at least some undeniable hints that this may be the case (especially 2000), but she's not exactly the fawning type (I think of the triplets from BATB when I hear the term "fawning" in that instance). May and Dawn, possibly Serena as well are, though.

And I kinda have to agree with Poke425, especially when they didn't even have him increase in rank until... what? DP? A Whole eight years after Johto? And then they butchered it with BW?
 
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Another part of Original Ash was Narcissism ! He was total Narcissist However BW Ash had no Narcissism even though writer/Director resetted him.

Most of You will say that Ash became mature So he no longer act like a Narcissist. But Narcissism was a part of him So writer can't just take it away in name of Maturity .

Its Same as Pride ! Pride consider to be A Bad quality But that doesn't mean A person shouldn't have any pride at all .


Same Way , Ash shouldn't lose his Narcissism in order to be Mature ! He should keep some of his Narcissism.
Like Gold (PokeSpe) Who happen to be the most Narcissist PokeSpe Protagonist ! He more competent & Mature then Ash but that doesn't mean He no longer act like a Narcissist .

Another example : Shinichi/Conan (Detective conan) , Arata (Trinity Seven)

They should've replaced Ash back during the OS (Kanto) era. I don't see the point of keeping him as the main protagonist for 20 years (speaking of which, I ran across a post on Bulbagarden, talking about the possibility of Ash being retired/removed from the anime on its 20th anniversary).

Since AG , I had a idea that Generation VI going to be Ash's last journey . Because--

-- Trainer can carry Only 6 Pokemon.

--6 is the highest number of Pokemon that can be used in a Full battle.

So , It make ''6'' a Special Number.
May be , Director/writer planning for Ash to use 6 different Pokemon from 6 different region in his final and most important Battle.
 
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i like ash and everyone thinks red is better than him is a big idiot no one beats ash he is the very best like no one ever was
 

RetroFanatic

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I'd like for him to keep that exciting personality he has but still not be dumb as a brick as he is sometimes.
 
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i like ash and everyone thinks red is better than him is a big idiot no one beats ash he is the very best like no one ever was

I'm pretty sure Ash was beaten by a lot of people, actually, so he's far from being the very best.
 

Dragon

lover of milotics
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Hm, taking a look at these responses, I'm prepared to give my opinions! Firstly, I don't really mind Ash Ketchum at all; he can have a really great and exciting personality when he really gets into battling, and that's the kind of thing I wanna see more often! Case in point, I think he generally has a fair personality already, and, he's slooowly growing up, so, perhaps his personality will diverge at few points?

In any case, when it comes to winning and losing, yes, I agree that while Ash has many great victories in his belt, it doesn't mean he can keep winning all the time. But, what I'd like to see happen is that I'd like to see his losses in the anime get more meaningful, if you know what I mean. Like, they did a really great job at this during Pokemon: The Origin when Red lost to Blue, because then he had to learn the hard lesson that he needed to connect with his pokemon, and his loss to Giovanni proves that he needed to be stronger to protect pokemon from Team Rocket.

I think they have the capacity to be on the right track with that in the anime, because Ash does special training whenever he looses to a gym leader, or whoever, especially at the time during the DP saga where he lost to Paul on that full 6 on 6 battle where his confidence dropped for a period of time, or where he lost in the Inigo Plateau and took it really hard. Just saying, while he can lose, I'd like to see a little more meaning behind his losses, and thus more life lessons for him coming from his losses~
 
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