YGO: Individual Card Discussion

[Marauding Master]

No one plays Double Summon. No one plays Gene-Warped Warwolf.

 

[Scarlet Weather]

And who are you, to know all this? Just because you haven't played anyone who uses Double Summon doesn't mean it ain't usable. Anyway, support your replies with more then a generality and maybe I'll listen.

As for use of Double Summon, I don't know why the heck a swarm deck would pass it up. Samurai doesn't have to have Grandmaster in the opening hand now in order to plunk down a two-man team, and its chances of doing so increase on the first move. As for Gene-Warped Warwolf, the point wasn't the monster played but the situation: Dark Bribe negates heavy storm but opponent pulls a card to blow it away anyways, which happened to be the double summon that called Breaker to the field. Silly Marauding Master. XD

Alright, now to talk about a certain favorite semi-nomi of mine: the Yubel line. Any possible uses seen?

Yubel
Monster/Dark/Fiend/Effect/10*
Atk 0000/Def 0000
This card is not destroyed by battle. If this face-up Attack Position card is attacked by your opponent's monster, inflict damage equal to the ATK of the attacking monster to your opponent. All Battle Damage to this card's controller that they take from a battle involving this card becomes 0. During your End Phase, this card is destroyed, unless you Tribute 1 monster you control. If this card is destroyed by an effect other than its own, you can Special Summon 1 "Yubel - Das Abscheuliche Ritter" from your hand, Deck or Graveyard.

Hmm... might have made an error with the card text there. So anyway, can you see this monster line being used? Yubel itself is a bit lackluster though it has wonderful synergy with Staunch Defender, or whatever that card is that forces all of your opponent's monsters to attack your card, and the added bonus of being able to call out Ritter, who basically nukes everything else at the end of the turn, and Das Extremer Trauren after that, who kills the opponent's monster no matter what it is and Flame Wingmans them in the bargain. Can anyone see a deck being built using this monster, or is it to be relegated to the depths of nomi?

Edit: Wow, you still need three monsters to get Yubel out if you want to attack more then once with it, but I'm impressed. Apparently, you only need two tributes as opposed to three, and it's got no restrictions on special summoning. Oopsies. 0_o

 

[Forci Stikane]

I don't see why Mirror Force needs protection in that example though... A player invests the minimal amount needed if Heavy Storm isn't played yet for the back field. Mirror Force alone, should destroy all the monsters attacking, so I personally won't set another back row with Mirror Force unless the other back row can be chained for other purposes, like scapegoat or something.

That example is more about the power of double summon rather than the lack of power for Dark Bribe too~ That situation can occur with or without dark bribe, and the keycard there is actually the double summon (which is another -1 CA but increase tempo card.)

*headdesk*

That was just meant as an example of how Dark Bribe can come back to hurt you. If somebody like me can think of a situation like that so fast, just imagine what could happen in a real-life tournament.

No one plays Double Summon. No one plays Gene-Warped Warwolf.

No one cares about your clearly-faulty opinion. *points at above & at ACC-M's post*

Alright, now to talk about a certain favorite semi-nomi of mine: the Yubel line. Any possible uses seen?

Yubel
Atk 0000/Def 0000
This monster cannot be normal summoned except by offering three monsters as tributes. This monster cannot be special summoned. This monster is not destroyed by battle. Any battle damage from a battle involving this monster is inflicted to your opponent. Once per turn, tribute one monster on your side of the field. If you do not, this monster is destroyed. If this monster is destroyed by an effect other then its own, special summon one "Yubel Das Absheuliche Ritter" from your hand or deck.

Hmm... might have made an error with the card text there. So anyway, can you see this monster line being used? Yubel itself is a bit lackluster (though it has wonderful synergy with Staunch Defender, or whatever that card is that forces all of your opponent's monsters to attack your card) and the added bonus of being able to call out Ritter, who basically nukes everything else at the end of the turn, and Das Extremer Trauren after that, who kills the opponent's monster no matter what it is and Flame Wingmans them in the bargain. Can anyone see a deck being built using this monster, or is it to be relegated to the depths of nomi?

...It might not matter much in this case, but can we get the top-line stats (Level, Type, Attribute), please?

Anyway, yes I can see it getting played in its own deck. Granted, it's severe Skill Drain and/or Fissure bait, but there are also charms in tossing an opponent's Cyber Dragon back at them. The only trick might be the three monsters, but as you kind of pointed out, decks like Six Samurai can swarm more than well enough.

 

[Frostweaver]

True that nobody plays double summon right now though, because recursion can usually swarm just as well but it doesn't cost so much in terms of CA. I'm still firmly gripped to the belief that double summon has untapped potential, just like how it took Skill Drain that many years to finally be part of a metagame-defining deck.

Normal monster is also (imho) untapped potential, with more and more powerful normal monster support every set. It's true that currently nobody plays it because it's not an insect and that Demise is not as fast as zombies, not to mention lack of metamorphosis for Cyber Twin, but still... Normal monster beatdown will probably consider Gene Warped Warwolf, when one is finally made.

(I actually wanted a normal monster beatdown, but I headdesked myself when I realize Gogiga Gagagigo is not in WC07 x_X)

 

[Scarlet Weather]

Normal monster Beatstick needs a bit more help then what it's got. Closest you can get would be Neos Revival or something like that, I suppose. Ah well, back to Yubel.

Anyway, I went back and checked the card text. Turns out Yubel is a lot more usable then I originally thought- there's no three-tribute requirement, and no restriction on special summons. As far as that goes, it means we now have a Tomato-searchable monster that thrives off of Scapegoat and swarming, as well as having the added bonus of summoning something even nastier when it gets nuked by card effect. Yessir, this monster is fun to play with. *evil laugh*

 

[Frostweaver]

Of course soul exchange/enemy controller tributing, or just swapping it with a turtle are totally legit ways to kill it too XD; But either way, it depends on what he pulls and what other cards come out with that set... afterall, the OCG may produce new cards that turn out to make fun of Yubel horribly in the same set (or whatever promos we don't know of) XD;

 

[Marauding Master]

And who are you, to know all this? Just because you haven't played anyone who uses Double Summon doesn't mean it ain't usable. Anyway, support your replies with more then a generality and maybe I'll listen.

As for use of Double Summon, I don't know why the heck a swarm deck would pass it up. Samurai doesn't have to have Grandmaster in the opening hand now in order to plunk down a two-man team, and its chances of doing so increase on the first move. As for Gene-Warped Warwolf, the point wasn't the monster played but the situation: Dark Bribe negates heavy storm but opponent pulls a card to blow it away anyways, which happened to be the double summon that called Breaker to the field. Silly Marauding Master. XD

Alright, now to talk about a certain favorite semi-nomi of mine: the Yubel line. Any possible uses seen?

Yubel
Monster/Dark/Fiend/Effect/10*
Atk 0000/Def 0000
This card is not destroyed by battle. If this face-up Attack Position card is attacked by your opponent's monster, inflict damage equal to the ATK of the attacking monster to your opponent. All Battle Damage to this card's controller that they take from a battle involving this card becomes 0. During your End Phase, this card is destroyed, unless you Tribute 1 monster you control. If this card is destroyed by an effect other than its own, you can Special Summon 1 "Yubel - Das Abscheuliche Ritter" from your hand, Deck or Graveyard.

Hmm... might have made an error with the card text there. So anyway, can you see this monster line being used? Yubel itself is a bit lackluster though it has wonderful synergy with Staunch Defender, or whatever that card is that forces all of your opponent's monsters to attack your card, and the added bonus of being able to call out Ritter, who basically nukes everything else at the end of the turn, and Das Extremer Trauren after that, who kills the opponent's monster no matter what it is and Flame Wingmans them in the bargain. Can anyone see a deck being built using this monster, or is it to be relegated to the depths of nomi?

Edit: Wow, you still need three monsters to get Yubel out if you want to attack more then once with it, but I'm impressed. Apparently, you only need two tributes as opposed to three, and it's got no restrictions on special summoning. Oopsies. 0_o

No one (Who's good anyway) will play Double Summon because it gives you a -1 for an extra summon who'll usually end up being more for the opponent to work with. Not to mention it's a bad topdeck. I wouldn't recommend it in any tier 1 deck.

Dark Bribe is very good. Because the decks it will usually be played in are Skillburn decks and the chance of drawing another backrowkiller with Bribe is relatively low. In which case you'll have Solemns. I've tested a skillburn deck with 2 Bribes and they come in real handy most of the time. Think of as much situations as you want to but I still went like 60-8 with that deck.

On to Yubel. I think it's a good control card and a good stall card but I don't think the set will bring to a tier 1 deck. Personally I'm holding out for Dark Nephthys.

Which leads to:

Dark Nephthys
Monster/Dark/Winged-Beast/Effect/8*
ATK: 2400/DEF: 1600

When there are 3 or more DARK monsters in your Graveyard, by removing 2 of them from play, send this card from your hand to the Graveyard. When sent to the Graveyard by this effect, during your next Standby Phase, Special Summon this card from your Graveyard. When this card is successfully Special Summoned, destroy 1 Spell or Trap Card on the field.

The OCG is already steamrolling over this card. It's definitely the best 'corrupted' monster of the Phantom Darkness set.

 

[Scarlet Weather]

Heh. I'm personally holding out like Frosty. It'll take time for Double Summon to come into its own, but I'm sure that once it does it'll make waves like Skill Drain. Eventually.

As for tier one, Yubel is basically hate for recursion, IMO, because playing Yubel doesn't revolve around CA. In fact, the more your opponent has, the better, since Yubel will likely be playing cards that force attacks from other monsters. Your opponent can control all the zombies in the world, and Yubel will still be able to nuke them all. Six Samurai will be a bit of a problem with Enishi, but presuming you can keep him off the field Yubel will be able to make fun of Zanji, at the very least, since the minute your opponent destroys it they not only give you a monster without a pesky upkeep requirement, they also basically place in your hands a continuous black hole. I think Yubel's real value lies in its ability to deal massive damage when comboed with Staunch Defender and its ability to replace itself. As for whether it makes tier one, like Frosty said, we don't know what else comes out in regards to support. (Though I'm slightly less pessimistic, since there'll probably be at least a few Yubel supports in there, as it is the star of the set.)

 

[Marauding Master]

Maybe, but I can see a lot of inconsistency as well. The TCG is currently in full Aggro where, if they can't kill your monster, they'll spin your monster. As well as Decrees against Stauch, Smashing, Fissure, Exiled, DDWL, etc.

I think there will be a few decks that use this card(But not the higher-ups), especially dark ones who will become tier 1 in some form, can use this effectively with Tomato.

 

[Forci Stikane]

No one (Who's good anyway) will play Double Summon because it gives you a -1 for an extra summon who'll usually end up being more for the opponent to work with. Not to mention it's a bad topdeck. I wouldn't recommend it in any tier 1 deck.

Mobius, Zaborg, Raiza, Thestalos, Breaker, Marshmallon, Jinzo, Samurai, and pretty much every Tribute out there. As far as I recall, most of *those* are also bad topdecks.

Frostweaver brought up the idea of tempo earlier, and that's exactly what's going on here. Skill Drain doesn't actually give any CA, either, but it's still used, isn't it?

Dark Bribe is very good. Because the decks it will usually be played in are Skillburn decks and the chance of drawing another backrowkiller with Bribe is relatively low. In which case you'll have Solemns. I've tested a skillburn deck with 2 Bribes and they come in real handy most of the time. Think of as much situations as you want to but I still went like 60-8 with that deck.

If you have Solemn Judgement down, then, uh...why not just use it to negate the card in the first place!!!?????? DUH. In that case, you don't even have to worry about what your opponent drew because they won't draw anything. >_>; Oh, and that record (as if it's for real) can't exactly be credited to two cards...

Maybe, but I can see a lot of inconsistency as well. The TCG is currently in full Aggro where, if they can't kill your monster, they'll spin your monster. As well as Decrees against Stauch, Smashing, Fissure, Exiled, DDWL, etc.

*points at Yubel's effect in its entirety* Smashing, Fissure, & Exiled only help you and DDWL will still be met with damage before removing.

 

[Marauding Master]

If you have Solemn Judgement down, then, uh...why not just use it to negate the card in the first place!!!?????? DUH. In that case, you don't even have to worry about what your opponent drew because they won't draw anything. >_>; Oh, and that record (as if it's for real) can't exactly be credited to two cards...



*points at Yubel's effect in its entirety* Smashing, Fissure, & Exiled only help you and DDWL will still be met with damage before removing.

If you run the other dead topdecksmonsters, yes then Smashing would only help you, yes.

And good players go Double Dutch with two counters. Of course you'll use Bribe first. What if exiled hits, allowing his 3stars to slip under my Gbind, for example. Or even worse, imagine LaDD or Des Wombat. You need the Solemn much more than Bribe.

 

[Forci Stikane]

If you run the other dead topdecksmonsters, yes then Smashing would only help you, yes.

ANY Tribute monster is a dead topdeck without anything to tribute for it, so stop using that as an excuse. ...Besides, the chances of Smashing hitting Yubel are actually pretty low, it having 0 DEF and all...

And good players go Double Dutch with two counters. Of course you'll use Bribe first. What if exiled hits, allowing his 3stars to slip under my Gbind, for example. Or even worse, imagine LaDD or Des Wombat. You need the Solemn much more than Bribe.

If that's the card they draw due to Bribe, then you're still paying the Life Points one way or another. At least activating Solemn on the original card gives you a turn to draw into & set another one...or something even worse for your opponent. Oh, and LaDD is about as difficult to get out in the first place as Yubel's other forms (and certainly just as bad of a topdeck), and just one negation puts it at weaker than Monarch/Jinzo, at which point it gets killed and you have to get rid of ALL your played cards for what will probably be a useless monster.

.......By the way, Exiled is 4 stars, not 3. I think that any good player would know that...

 

[Frostweaver]

What is LaDD? ^_^;;;

Actually Yubel being hit by Smashing Ground is reasonably high because of its own effect of eating monsters on its own side of the field to maintain itself. More often than not, unless there is tokens of some kind or CotH/Premature, it is alone and thus, fissure and smashing ground will both target the same thing.

Indeed you want to use Dark Bribe first if you have the option to choose which to activate. In a usual deck, there are more monsters than there are spells that can destroy the back row. Solemn the Jinzo/Mobius/Mei kei (more than 2/40) (whatever that name is... I actually got a question about it. If Skill Drain is out already, you can't activate his ability right?), and leave the Bribe to handle the heavy storm/MST (2/40). Dark Bribe is simply not as flexible as solemn, you want to conserve the most flexible card for the worse situation to come.

Possible that Dark Bribe stops the heavy storm but draws the breaker, yes, but chance of that is sooo slim.

 

[Forci Stikane]

What is LaDD? ^_^;;;

Actually Yubel being hit by Smashing Ground is reasonably high because of its own effect of eating monsters on its own side of the field to maintain itself. More often than not, unless there is tokens of some kind or CotH/Premature, it is alone and thus, fissure and smashing ground will both target the same thing.

Indeed you want to use Dark Bribe first if you have the option to choose which to activate. In a usual deck, there are more monsters than there are spells that can destroy the back row. Solemn the Jinzo/Mobius/Mei kei (more than 2/40) (whatever that name is... I actually got a question about it. If Skill Drain is out already, you can't activate his ability right?), and leave the Bribe to handle the heavy storm/MST (2/40). Dark Bribe is simply not as flexible as solemn, you want to conserve the most flexible card for the worse situation to come.

Possible that Dark Bribe stops the heavy storm but draws the breaker, yes, but chance of that is sooo slim.

Light & Darkness Dragon ......I assume.

Right, right...but ideally you'll have a CotH or something (maybe even a Trap Monster) ready to sacrifice for Yubel without wasting your Normal Summon, so those can also be activated in response to Smashing to take the hit in case you indeed do NOT have the other monsters for it (although I have doubts whether or not a competitive player would use Smashing in the first place and risk it). I'm not going to argue that Fissure's going to always hit it, though.

...Well, Dark Bribe can't stop monster effects, anyway, so you don't exactly have a choice on Jinzo/Mobius. Also, may I remind you once again that that was just an example? It isn't just negating Heavy to draw into Breaker but rather negating a dangerous Spell only for your opponent to draw one just as damaging, if not worse (Shield Crush into NoC, Fissure into Vortex, etc). However, negate the first one with Solemn and not only does your opponent not draw that card, but the card under it is delayed a turn from being drawn as well, giving a sort of Raiza or Jar of Greed-like situation (depending on how you look at it).

 

[Marauding Master]

If that's the card they draw due to Bribe, then you're still paying the Life Points one way or another. At least activating Solemn on the original card gives you a turn to draw into & set another one...or something even worse for your opponent. Oh, and LaDD is about as difficult to get out in the first place as Yubel's other forms (and certainly just as bad of a topdeck), and just one negation puts it at weaker than Monarch/Jinzo, at which point it gets killed and you have to get rid of ALL your played cards for what will probably be a useless monster.

.......By the way, Exiled is 4 stars, not 3. I think that any good player would know that...

Lol. Useless monster? The last effect is his best one. If you've been doing it right, you'll have a Green Baboon/DMoC/Disk Commander. And yes, I wasn't referring to Exiled attacking. I was referring to him blowing up your monster defense. And it doesn't matter if you pay life points or not. It's just a case of knowing what to chain against. Would you rather not have played Bribe and let his Storm hit you?

To end my discussion on Bribes. In a lockdown deck, 3/40 is just not going to cut it. You need the Bribes to maintain presence.

Light & Darkness Dragon ......I assume.

Right, right...but ideally you'll have a CotH or something (maybe even a Trap Monster) ready to sacrifice for Yubel without wasting your Normal Summon, so those can also be activated in response to Smashing to take the hit in case you indeed do NOT have the other monsters for it (although I have doubts whether or not a competitive player would use Smashing in the first place and risk it). I'm not going to argue that Fissure's going to always hit it, though.

...Well, Dark Bribe can't stop monster effects, anyway, so you don't exactly have a choice on Jinzo/Mobius. Also, may I remind you once again that that was just an example? It isn't just negating Heavy to draw into Breaker but rather negating a dangerous Spell only for your opponent to draw one just as damaging, if not worse (Shield Crush into NoC, Fissure into Vortex, etc). However, negate the first one with Solemn and not only does your opponent not draw that card, but the card under it is delayed a turn from being drawn as well, giving a sort of Raiza or Jar of Greed-like situation (depending on how you look at it).

If you want to preserve Yubel's from Smashings then I recommend using Interdimensional Matter Transporter. And players would play Smashing on him, if not hitting him, it will at least draw out something.

 

[Scarlet Weather]

Once again, I say it: Yubel will want to get killed. Also, as far as useless topdeck goes you need only run one copy of Ritter and Trauren, since both of them get called from the deck. A 2/40 means you have a maybe one in twenty chance of drawing them at all, and if you do you've always got other (albeit extremely situational) uses for them, like dumping them from the hand with Dark World Dealing or tossing them from the deck with Card Trooper in order to set up for Dark Nephtys. (Oh, how I love the corrupted monsters. XD) Anyway, I'm taking notes either way. I don't care how much of a nomi Yubel is, I'm building my deck around it when WC08 comes out. Whether I'll actually use it is another story.

 

[Forci Stikane]

Lol. Useless monster? The last effect is his best one. If you've been doing it right, you'll have a Green Baboon/DMoC/Disk Commander.

Okay, let's run that real quick:

-I kill your LaDD with my Jinzo/Monarch.
-You Special Summon Green Baboon.

-ENEMY CONTROLLER.

-Follow up by tributing for another Jinzo/Monarch.

Really, if somebody like me can poke holes in these plans so easily...there's definitely something wrong with them.

Now, as for Yubel, the last part of the effect still stands. Either you play Smashing and you let your opponent get something worse out or you end up getting blocked.

 

[Frostweaver]

I'm not going to comment on LaDD honestly because I admit that somehow I can't get that darn thing out fast enough =( I'm still toying around with it against computer duelists first (regardless of how they're technically incompetent) until I get something I'm decently satisfied with, then I'll talk about LaDD. Certainly it's going to completely influence the metagame, but the question is just how should LaDD be implemented in a deck, and what should go with it. Japanese uses all kinds of monsters to go with LaDD, even samurai (I heard of it a lot but still can't get a deck list of LaDD Samurai... it sounds absurd to me and I'll love to know how the heck does that work.)



As for Yubel, it depends... there are certainly possibilities and reasons why you'll run Yubel, but not any of the other in the same line. Raiou still walks in triplets in OCG, and its effect will just negate and destroy Yubel's attempt to summon the rest of its family. Not to mention, Stun always have the 3 Skull Descalibur too. Talking about Yubel now is really not doing much unless we're talking about OCG setting. TCG is just missing too much to be on the same level to talk about an OCG card.

 

[Marauding Master]

Okay, let's run that real quick:

-I kill your LaDD with my Jinzo/Monarch.
-You Special Summon Green Baboon.

-ENEMY CONTROLLER.

-Follow up by tributing for another Jinzo/Monarch.

Really, if somebody like me can poke holes in these plans so easily...there's definitely something wrong with them.

Now, as for Yubel, the last part of the effect still stands. Either you play Smashing and you let your opponent get something worse out or you end up getting blocked.

Jinzo doesn't get negated. And it's not a 'plan'. You use Disk or DMoC to get more advantage, and if you have the opening, you go for something stronger.

Japanese uses all kinds of monsters to go with LaDD, even samurai (I heard of it a lot but still can't get a deck list of LaDD Samurai... it sounds absurd to me and I'll love to know how the heck does that work.)

I'm testing Samsam-RaiDa this sunday.

 

[Forci Stikane]

Jinzo doesn't get negated. And it's not a 'plan'. You use Disk or DMoC to get more advantage, and if you have the opening, you go for something stronger.

I didn't say it did.

That actually sounds a lot like a "plan" to me. Disk Commander gets switched into Attack mode for a hit to your LP and DMoC is a solid 2800 when EC'd. My overall point here is that LaDD's revival effect leaves your field wide open for something to hit your monster back at you, Enemy Controller being one of the bigger examples. Granted, if you're hoping for the recursion effect, you won't have that many cards out on the field (if at all), so you'll have to deal exclusively with what's in your hand (which, may I remind you, has a size limit). However, if you're topdecking, that leaves you with only a few cards to go against whatever's left over after LaDD dies. This, the two-tribute, and the impossibility of a dump/revive makes it an incredibly horrible topdeck, especially compared to something more flexible like Monarch.

Oh, and LaDD is usually going to get killed on your opponent's turn, giving them time to counter whatever you pull out. Most good players will probably have either a Fissure/Smashing that they saved or some Quick-Play in their hand, like Enemy Controller. Even if you suicide LaDD, the monster you bring out will still be vulnerable to anything your opponent had set while waiting for LaDD to die. The best you could get here would be either Disk Commander in defense, whose two cards would just negate the -2 for tributing it, or DMoC's spell right before he gets killed by something.

All in all, I'm calling LaDD not worth it right now. Most competent players will probably only let two cards MAX get negated before killing it (loses to Breaker w/counter at that point), unless of course they're trying to DDWL it, at which case that's three (I wonder how that would work, actually...would LaDD's effect still trigger if it was already determined to be destroyed in battle?). Then, the monster that comes out with its effect after nuking your entire field will be expected and almost immediately destroyed, ruining the majority of your work. The "No Special Summoning" part only makes it harder to come out. I could only see it getting teched in a Phoenix deck, if even that.

That's all I have to say on it.