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Atheist, not Agnostic

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • Sometimes I get asked why I consider myself atheist. A lot of people I know consider themselves agnostic and think that any "smart" person would do the same. They'll tell me that "there's no way you can disprove the existence of a God or gods, so you should be agnostic, right?" That may be true, but the reason I consider myself atheist is because that is not a useful position to take. If, back in the middle ages, someone came up to me and said "I'm doing an experiment and I want you to tell me whether gravity exists," there would be three reasonable responses: it does not exist, it might exist, or it does exist. Based on the evidence at the time, I'm pretty sure gravity exists, but I don't have proof. The first response is right out because it isn't supported by the evidence I've seen. The second one just isn't useful; telling the person that it might exist isn't going to help him in the slightest. The best answer is the third one: I tell him gravity exists because the evidence I've seen supports, because there's no reasonable reason to believe otherwise, and because it's more useful than the second answer.

    I think this is a pretty clear analogy. Like gravity, there's a lot of evidence supporting theories like evolution. The theory is by no means perfect, and creationism certainly can't be disproved with the knowledge we have right now. However, there hasn't been compelling evidence to suggest creationism is correct. Additionally, being able to say that I am atheist means that I've completely shed myself of the morals and such associated with religion. My morals are my own, and I choose what I think is right and what I think is wrong based on logic, societal norms and taboos, and maybe a little emotion. I think being able to think about morality without considering the whims of an almighty creator is a useful position both for myself and for society at large. It allows us to formulate our actions based on what we think will help people (or, for the more self-serving among us, help ourselves without hurting others) without regard for what some cosmic force might do to us for disobeying his or her rules.

    On a similar note, a number of my atheist and agnostic friends ask me why I'm tolerant of religious people given "all the problems religious people cause" or some nonsense like that. Putting aside the fact that I'm generally tolerant toward anyone whose actions don't hurt others, I think religion is still a force of good for many people, and it wouldn't be helpful to get them to question their beliefs. First of all, while in my heart I am a bit disappointed that more people don't try to understand (or even think about) morality and how the forces of the world work, it's not my position to tell others what they should or should not believe. Again, as long as their actions don't bring suffering to others, I see no problem with them. There's no reason to try to stop people from doing good.

    It's also worth considering that a lot of people have structured their entire lives around religion. Some people are able to get through the day purely because of their beliefs; others do good works for others because they believe that their deity or deities desires it. Assuming any argument I could make would actually cause them to question their beliefs, it would be cruel to the people they help to interfere with their actions, and it would be cruel to the believers themselves to try to take away something that gives them satisfaction in life. In fact, it goes against my morals to do so, for the same reason I gave above: I begin to question actions when they bring pain to others. Forcing someone to question their beliefs and the very way they have lived their life? That's horribly cruel and will undoubtedly bring them a lot of mental anguish, and for what? So they are without a cause or direction in life? Given enough time (provided they don't do something horribly destructive first), they may come to find their own purpose in life without religion as many non-religious folk have, but I hardly think that's worth it, especially given how little time we have before we die. And in the end, will they be any happier? Will those that they associate with be any happier? Maybe, maybe not. Even assuming a positive outcome, I don't think it's right to put them through such pain to achieve such an end if they don't want it to begin with. If they begin to question their beliefs themselves, that's a different story, but nobody has the right to force them into that position.

    And finally, more often than not, attacking someone's beliefs isn't going to cause them to question their religion at all, it's going to polarize them and get them upset with you for the exact reasons given above. That's more likely to cause a war than a particular belief is.
     

    J

    good morning
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    everyone should read this post
    because it is pretty cool
     
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    2caus, your writing is enlightening and eloquent as usual. you pretty much said everything that needs to be said, there is nothing to dispute and nothing to add. all i can do is rate this blog five stars and recommend everyone to really read and comprehend this entry.
     

    Luck

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    A/Theism is related to belief.
    A/Gnosticism is related to knowledge.

    A person can technically still be an atheist and an agnostic. It's not a hard concept to grasp, I don't know why some people are so confused about it.
     
    Last edited:

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • You completely missed the point. The point was that agnosticism is a useless position to take. Whether you take it to mean "an uncertainty in the existence of any deities" or "the position that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of any deities" or whatever, it doesn't matter. It's still a useless position to take. Of course you can't prove or disprove a deity, at least not with our current knowledge. Likewise, back in the 1800s (or whenever) we couldn't prove or disprove gravity, but it was still useless to say so in a discussion about its existence because that much was obvious to everyone present.
     

    Luck

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    I never disagreed with you. I know it's a useless position to take. I was just saying that you can be agnostic and still be religious or nonreligious.

    Your analogy also falls short because gravity is scientific and something supernatural is unscientific. You can very well prove gravity because it's natural, measurable, and testable, but supernatural beings aren't any of the three. I understand what you mean, I really do, but you should really compare things that are more akin to each other.
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • Oh, sorry if I misinterpreted. I was actually tired even when I wrote the post, and I'm probably going to bed in a few minutes, aheh.

    It's hard to make a good analogy in this case. I felt gravity worked because it was a situation in which people were unsure of the existence of something that was important to our understanding of the world. And at the time, it wasn't provable due to incomplete knowledge, a very similar circumstance to what we have in the religion debate.
     

    KanadeTenshi

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  • science-religion.gif

    What I think.
     

    Melody

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  • ...I love this logic Twocows. :3

    Seriously. I adore it! <3
    Even though I'm religious myself, I can't help but love the ideal you have. It's the perfect picture of the perfect atheist. I can most certainly live with that. :3

    If more atheists would have this way of thinking, I think even the worst bible thumpers could get along with them. xD (No, I kid, those bible thumpers would cram the bible down a poodle's throat if it dared to utter a whimper against god. XD)

    Still, I think it's an epic stance to take. Anyone who dares utter an ill word about you for that is naught but a fool, even by the Lord's standards. I don't believe that the Lord says people should cram the bible down people's throat. Jesus never did. He used life itself to prove it right.
     
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  • Why is agnosticism useless? I can understand your relation to gravity, but is it not also possible to adopt an unknowing stance on whether gravity exists but still proceed to try and find the answer? I would argue that it's not effective to assume knowledge permanently because mistakes will then be made.

    We can pretend or theorise and build off those theories, for example string theory - the majority of scientists on string theory, if not all of them, would say that it's possible that they're wrong, that the string theory doesn't work after all. They've adopted an agnostic stance on the string theory - they can assume knowledge (so that they can build off it to explain the universe) but not believe it (similar to an agnostic stance, for example I do not adhere to any religious rules or doctrines however I do not believe that there is definitely no god(s)).
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • It's reasonable to take the stance that gravity may or may not exist when there is little to no evidence to the contrary. A skeptical approach would probably be best in such a case, to be certain. However, once the evidence starts mounting (as is the case here), that becomes less useful and regarding the theory as correct by default becomes more useful. Obviously that doesn't mean we should stop looking for evidence and testing the theory, but looking at it as the default position gives us a place to build from.

    Another example that just came to mind is early models of the atom. Newer models have changed substantially based on new evidence, but even the early models (though largely flawed) provided us a starting point. As we learned more, we found the old models to be insufficient and so we amended them. Our current scientific models of creation are almost certainly wrong, but we're likely on the right track. I'm sure if we keep researching, we'll fine-tune our theories to be more accurate.
     
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