Abortion.

[TRIFORCE89]

And I believe that we should go by what literally everybody accepts as the beginning of life (birth), rather than trying to debate whether or not it begins prenatally.

Well, that's the question then isn't it? Not everybody accepts birth as when life starts. It's merely when you legally become a person.

I don't think life starts at birth. But I don't think it starts at conception either. At some point during that nine-month span though, probably.

And the law always inherently knows when to consider someone a person. The African-American Civil Rights and Women's Rights movements were just big wastes of time :\ Right?

Through all these discussions lately, I think I've come to the conclusion that my stance is something like pro-choice but anti-abortion. An at times necessary procedure, that I find morally questionable and worth questioning, but not worth outlawing as that can lead to worse outcomes.

 

[Scuki]

what I think

Abortion here is illegal. The phils is a very religious country. Heck not even protection would be allowed if it were for the church. Which I find kinda absurd. ( i'm not attacking religion or church.) For me abortion depends on the situation a person is in. If a girl got rapped or unwanted pregnancy then I find it okay. Still, you need to know that you erase your childs life before it started. Just imagine if your parents decided to abort you. You wouldn't be living today. Decide for abortion if absolutely necessary. Use protection to avoid pregnancy im the first place. =). Better safe than sorry right?


Sorry for the long post lol. And sorry if there are some wrong spelling and etc. XDD.

 

[Nihilego]

And I believe that we should go by what literally everybody accepts as the beginning of life (birth), rather than trying to debate whether or not it begins prenatally.

But that's... not really what 'everybody' accepts. Since posting this you've had two people disagree with you - TRIFORCE89 above me, and now me, as I think life begins at conception. So far it's definitely not looking like 'everybody' accepts this stance. It's true that the baby starts living independently of the mother's body at birth, but many people would say that it's living a long time before that.

Your opinion is not fact, do not argue it as such. Furthermore, how ****ing dare you. How dare you say that a woman should have to carry the child of the man that raped her. Why don't you go move to some ass-backwards non-secular country where she'd probably have to marry him as well? Also did you compare abortion to the holocaust? Were you dropped on your head as a child? Do you have any idea of the kind of trauma rape victims suffer? Do you have ANY idea what actually happened in the holocaust?

Calm down. You can get your point across without being this aggressive.

Now, I could write thousands of ad-hominems, and question your integrity all day. But let's think about this, in your ideal world where abortion is illegal, what should be done with women who have illegal abortions?

Then they would have broken the law and would have to face whatever the penalty may be. Same as anyone else who does something illegal.

 

[CrazyMrHans]

But that's... not really what 'everybody' accepts. Since posting this you've had two people disagree with you - TRIFORCE89 above me, and now me, as I think life begins at conception. So far it's definitely not looking like 'everybody' accepts this stance. It's true that the baby starts living independently of the mother's body at birth, but many people would say that it's living a long time before that.

That's not what I meant, what I mean is, everybody accepts that something is alive as soon as it's born, but not everyone accepts that it's alive prior to that. Hence, the logical conclusion is to take the stance that life begins at birth, and not before. At least, legally.

Calm down. You can get your point across without being this aggressive.

Not really, not when someone trivialises rape and the holocaust. And the same could be said of aspie.

Then they would have broken the law and would have to face whatever the penalty may be. Same as anyone else who does something illegal.

But what would that penalty be?

 

[Nihilego]

That's not what I meant, what I mean is, everybody accepts that something is alive as soon as it's born, but not everyone accepts that it's alive prior to that. Hence, the logical conclusion is to take the stance that life begins at birth, and not before. At least, legally.

Oh right, I get what you mean now. I get where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that a more scientific approach is needed here rather than just going with what people can all agree on. Just because, for example, a plant may not seem to be living to everyone, it is considered to be alive because it exhibits life processes. Idk if an unborn fetus does exhibit those, but if it does, then it should be considered alive at the point which it shows them. If it doesn't show the processes required to consider it 'alive' then, in the eyes of the law, I don't suppose it is 'alive'.

Not really, not when someone trivialises rape and the holocaust.

Like you said twice in your other post, "that's your opinion". If you want your opinions treated with respect then treat the opinions of others with respect. That said I'm not gonna go into a discussion here about debate etiquette - PM me if you feel the need to, otherwise, forget about it and continue with the thread.

But what would that penalty be?

Imprisonment, I assume. I think that's what you get for breaking most laws.

 

[jpp8]

Birth is merely where you legally become a person.

Well there you go. Once the baby is out of the womb, killing it would be illegal as it most certainly is a person. However, until then, it is living off of the pregnant person and is not a fully functional human being that can exist without their body. The pregnant person has every right to control her body and if they feel they cannot, are not ready, or some other reason to not take care of the baby that will result from the pregnancy, then they have the right to abort it. Not your uterus, not your say.

Making abortion illegal wouldn't change a thing in the same way keeping marijuana illegal doesn't curb use. Just as people still smoke weed, pregnant persons will still seek abortions. Except now, they'll have to get them in back alleys or otherwise dangerous, illegal methods. Marijuana could be entirely safe if it were commercialized, but as it's not, it's sold by drug dealers and cartels and thus have add an element of danger and death to an otherwise absolutely non-lethal drug. In the same vein, illegal abortions can result in medical complications, infertility, and even death. If you're OK with their deaths because it was "illegal", then I really don't think this is so much "Pro-life" but "Anti-woman". Illegal abortions stop two beating hearts. Keep abortion safe. Keep abortion legal for all situations.

 

[aspie3000]

Your opinion is not fact, do not argue it as such. Furthermore, how ****ing dare you. How dare you say that a woman should have to carry the child of the man that raped her. Why don't you go move to some ass-backwards non-secular country where she'd probably have to marry him as well? Also did you compare abortion to the holocaust? Were you dropped on your head as a child? Do you have any idea of the kind of trauma rape victims suffer? Do you have ANY idea what actually happened in the holocaust?

How dare me? How dare you decide that a human being doesn't have the right to live because of the way it's conceived? And yeah, I know what happened in the holocaust. A white nationalist slaughtered ten million people and justified it by dehumanizing them. Kind of like today how female nationalists justify the slaughter of innocent children by dehumanizing them. The trauma of a rape victim is no excuse to take an innocent life in the same way that the trauma of a serial killer's childhood doesn't give him the right to kill others. And I find it hilarious that you're questioning my integrity, MY INTEGRITY when you're sitting there justifying the deaths of innocent people! I could lower myself to your level and insult you but quite frankly what's the point? I have about as much respect for you as I have for those who say that the Jews deserved to die in the holocaust. You justify the murder of innocent people, end of story.

Now, I could write thousands of ad-hominems, and question your integrity all day. But let's think about this, in your ideal world where abortion is illegal, what should be done with women who have illegal abortions?

I'm not going to beat around the bush. Abortion is murder, and murder should be punishable by death. So unless the two exceptions are the reasons for the abortion, they must pay with their lives. You may try to take the moral high ground because of this, but the problem is that you don't have the moral high ground. Like I said, you're defending murder.

Not really, not when someone trivialises rape and the holocaust.

Much like you trivialize the human life. Also, note that if you insult me again, I'll report you. I didn't want to enter this debate specifically because of angry morally challenged liberals screaming their hollow heads off because they lack a real argument.

 

[Oryx]

Aspie, don't you think you trivialize human life yourself by making the decision that everyone who has an abortion should die? If you cared about all life like you claim, then you would be against the idea of killing anyone for any reason. You're dehumanizing the person by claiming that once they've murdered someone, they are no longer human and therefore have no right to life.

Just something to think about.

 

[jpp8]

Rape is an extremely traumatizing act that even causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It is truly triggering for those who have been through it. The pregnancy or child resulting from rape can serve act as a brutal reminder for the mother of the act. If she does not want as such, then she should be able to abort. Incest is not only illegal, but can usually be caused by rape as well. The Holocaust and slavery were terrible terrible periods of time for those unfortunate enough to have been the victims of such. No one knows the turmoil, pain, and suffering that they went through except for the survivors. No one should trivialize their plight by using it to promote their cause. Reproductive freedoms and control over one's own body is nothing like the holocaust or slavery. The only oppression going on here is of women's rights to control their body.

 

[aspie3000]

Aspie, don't you think you trivialize human life yourself by making the decision that everyone who has an abortion should die? If you cared about all life like you claim, then you would be against the idea of killing anyone for any reason. You're dehumanizing the person by claiming that once they've murdered someone, they are no longer human and therefore have no right to life.

Just something to think about.

Nope, it's the opposite. A human life is worth a lot and when it's taken by force there has to be payment for it. That's the definition of justice, repaying actions with an equal punishment or reward. It doesn't make them any less human, but they are deserving of death. The next time that an unborn baby decapitates somebody willfully, you may have an argument.

Rape is an extremely traumatizing act that even causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It is truly triggering for those who have been through it. The pregnancy or child resulting from rape can serve act as a brutal reminder for the mother of the act. If she does not want as such, then she should be able to abort. Incest is not only illegal, but can usually be caused by rape as well. The Holocaust and slavery were terrible terrible periods of time for those unfortunate enough to have been the victims of such. No one knows the turmoil, pain, and suffering that they went through except for the survivors. No one should trivialize their plight by using it to promote their cause. Reproductive freedoms and control over one's own body is nothing like the holocaust or slavery. The only oppression going on here is of women's rights to control their body.

You act like I don't know what the effects of rape are. One of my mother's friends was a victim of rape. She is a shell of the woman that she used to be. She also carried the resulting baby to term. No amount of turmoil or stress, I repeat NO AMOUNT gives anyone the right to kill an innocent person. And I'm not the one trivializing the Holocaust and slavery, far from it. Abortion justifiers are the ones trivializing innocent life. My comparison to the Holocaust is not made just to promote my cause. It's made because it truly is comparable. Woman's nationalists saying that someone does not have the right to live because they aren't born is a repeat of the holocaust. And this "right to a woman's body" crap is getting old. This is not about her body, it's about the body growing inside her.

 

[Oryx]

Nope, it's the opposite. A human life is worth a lot and when it's taken by force there has to be payment for it. That's the definition of justice, repaying actions with an equal punishment or reward. It doesn't make them any less human, but they are deserving of death. The next time that an unborn baby decapitates somebody willfully, you may have an argument.

Sorry, you didn't speak your full opinion here. You mean "a human life is worth a lot unless they're a murderer then it's not worth anything", right? I don't think using the term pro-life is appropriate for people that advocate killing people for any reason at all.

 

[aspie3000]

Like I said, the murderer's life is worth the life they took, and thus is the only payment for it. And if that's what "pro life" is than I don't want to be called pro life. There are times where you have to kill people. If everyone had been your definition of pro life we'd all be speaking German right now.

 

[Oryx]

Godwin's Law invoked.

There's a reason why there's a different sentence for manslaughter and murder, and murder and genocide, and why there's a difference between "right" and "justifiable". But that's another topic for another thread that may or may not be active (can't remember off the top of my head).

Either way comparing abortion to the Holocaust is inflammatory and really unnecessary. It's much less black and white than that, as you can see by people disagreeing about when life starts. Even if you do think it's murder, the Hitler comparisons are really out of line and I would appreciate if you would refrain from using them. Surely you have more coherent arguments than "YOU'RE HITLER", so you should be able to easily take them out of your rhetoric.

 

[jpp8]

I'm sure you know what the effects of rape are, but you still trivialize it. Rape is a truly traumatic experience for the victim. Like, people will get PTSD attacks if you bring it up for some. It's very very serious (and the fact that so many go unpunished and the victims are blamed is another woman topic for another time). Your friend's mother may have been able to carry the baby to term, but that was her choice. Not all people want to have a permanent reminder of the horrible traumatizing event known as rape. Just because someone could do it doesn't mean that their view should be imposed upon the whole populace.

The body growing inside of her is still part of HER body until it is born so she should be able to have full control over it. A fetus is living off of the mother until it is born, and it is her CHOICE whether or not she allows it to live in her or not. Nobody is saying "fetuses have no right to live". People are saying that it is their right to do what they wish with their own bodies. Not your uterus, not your place to say anything.

If you don't value human life that's already been born and are thus not pro-life, then what's your rationale for wanting to make abortion illegal? Could it possibly be that you just want to control women into popping out babies and are actually anti-woman? Something to think about

 

[aspie3000]

Well, you're the Mod so you make the rules, and I've spelled out argument after argument that no one has even tried to refute. I've shown that I have more arguments than calling people Hitler. The reason that people focus on that argument so much is because it hits a nerve. Why don't they have any real arguments as to why this isn't synonymous to the holocaust other than HOW DARE YOU! WERE YOU DROPPED ON YOUR HEAD? It's exactly that kind of hateful liberal crap that keeps me from coming to other chat. Anyways, I digress and will stop with the NAZI comparisons even if it is a valid point.

If you don't value human life that's already been born and are thus not pro-life, then what's your rationale for wanting to make abortion illegal? Could it possibly be that you just want to control women into popping out babies and are actually anti-woman? Something to think about

:laugh: This has to be the single stupidest comment I have seen in my entire freaken life! I do value life that's already been born! And I've explained why I believe the death penalty despite that. And yes, you are saying that children that aren't wanted by their mother because they were raped don't deserve to live. No amount of stress gives you any excuse to take an innocent life. How in Gods name did that turn into me hating women? Liberals are allergic to logic.

 

[jpp8]

The Holocaust was much more than "dehumanizing", which is what you're implying is the only connection. The Holocaust involved pain, cruel suffering, torture, human experimentation, and a whole slew of other crimes against humanity. The concentration camps broke people. Completely and utterly broke people. I don't know how painful their plight was, so it is not my right to say that anything is "like the holocaust". Abortion is the safe removal of a cluster of cells that cannot feel pain or have cognitive thought. One of the safest medical procedures there are. Huge difference.

 

[aspie3000]

A cluster of cells that is going to become a human being. Whether you're taking a born life or a future life, it's still taking a life.

 

[Oryx]

This isn't synonymous to the Holocaust because the Holocaust was one man killing millions of fully grown people that everyone agrees are human beings due to their religion/ethnicity. Abortion is women making the choice not to carry a fetus to term.

1. It is an accepted fact that the people killed in the Holocaust are separate human beings from the Nazis that killed them. It is not an accepted fact that fetuses are separate human beings from the mother that is nourishing them.
2. People were murdered in the Holocaust not for any logical reason on the part of the Nazis, but because they were Jewish or a gypsy or an ethnicity they didn't approve of. Women have abortions for various reasons, most of them completely legitimate, logical reasons ("I don't have the money", "I have panic attacks when I see my stomach because I was traumatized by rape", etc).
3. In the Holocaust, millions were marched to concentration camps, tortured, forced to work and then submitted to painful deaths. None of that applies to abortion.

Interesting fact: Prenatal care for a fetus is about $2,000. What if you don't have the money to even be pregnant, let alone take care of the child when it's born? That child should be paid for by the government to be born, so it can be paid for by the government to be raised, so it can be unwanted in pregnancy and birth? In the United States, 120,000 children are adopted a year, and over 250,000 children go into foster care. (Source 1 | Source 2). Of those children, "an estimated 78 percent (78.3) suffered neglect, an estimated 18 percent (17.6) were physically abused, an estimated 9 percent (9.2) were sexually abused, an estimated 8 percent (8.1) were psychologically maltreated, and an estimated 2 percent (2.4) were medically neglected. In addition, an estimated 10 percent of victim (10.3) experienced "other" types of maltreatment such as "abandonment," "threats of harm to the child," and "congenital drug addiction."" (Source) There are enough abused, neglected children in this world, if I can't afford a child, took all the precautions against having one, and still got pregnant due to something going drastically wrong, I wouldn't bring another child into that.

 

[Dakotah]

A cluster of cells that is going to become a human being. Whether you're taking a born life or a future life, it's still taking a life.

Only 30-50% of instances does that cluster of cells naturally become a person. Up to 70% of all pregnancies result in a spontaneous abortion. This is also called a miscarriage. Who then shall we assign blame for these abortions?

Also, I find it very interesting that you used the word "become." I say this because to use it indicates that the thing being described hasn't yet become what it is intended to be. Which in this case means, that cluster of cells, by your own admission, is NOT a human being. Since criminal law only deems murder to be an act of willfully terminating the life of another person and not a "potential" human, it cannot LEGALLY asserted that performing an abortion is akin to murder.

Let us not forget that the law protects persons under the law. Not human beings. Legally, these are two completely separate concepts.

 

[jpp8]

Any cluster of cells can become a human being. The sperm and egg separately are clusters of cells that will become a human being. The hundreds of millions of sperm lost in a single ejaculation and the eggs lost to menstrual cycles; those too are clusters of cells that will become human beings. Even fertilized eggs will become human being, but not all of them make it to the womb and are flushed out during menstrual cycles. Are women and men taking lives every single day? And again, if you don't value human life that's already been born, what's your rationale for being so against abortion? Every child wanted and every parent willing isn't that radical of a concept.