It's still canon because Red's team in Gold and Silver has all 3 starters and one unevolved Pikachu in it. It's a nod to Yellow. But that's not the point; your utter refusal to even consider Yellow as canon is derailing the thread. This thread is about how FireRed and LeafGreen failed as remakes and how they could have been made better, not whether or not Yellow was canon or not, and that doesn't even matter because FR/LG retconned Yellow out of the timeline. If you wanna debate on whether or not Yellow was the true Gen 1 game go make your own thread about it, but leave it out of this one.
3rd Gen What went wrong with FRLG?
- Thread starter BettyNewbie
- Start date
- 510
- Posts
- 11
- Years
- Seen Jun 8, 2024
See my post regarding that interpretation.
Wrong. I never made any argument regarding "canon", precisely because Game Freak never made any claim about it. My argument was always that Yellow was a spin-off adaptation of the anime and therefore not something they should have based on if the purpose of these remakes was to re-tell the original quest as it was seen in Red/Green/Blue.
Read what has been written before making baseless accusations. The OP was the one who brought Yellow into this discussion. If you have a problem with Yellow being discussed, then talk to/blame him/her.
The OP brought Pokemon Yellow into the thread because Yellow was a Gen 1 game, and FR/LG are REMAKES of Gen 1. Elements of Pokemon Yellow being included in FR/LG are not bad, because FR/LG are remakes of Gen 1 as a whole, not simply remakes of Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue or Green. My "baseless accusations" aren't baseless at all, because you're STILL derailing the thread because you're missing the forest for the trees. Whether you think Pokemon Yellow is a canon game or just a spinoff of the anime is up to you, but it still doesn't change the fact it's a Gen 1 game and having elements of the game included in a remake is not a bad thing. Now if you wanna go argue with people whether Pokemon Yellow is on the same level as Pokemon Blue or Red go make your own thread and argue there. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation don't say anything.
- 895
- Posts
- 9
- Years
- Seen Apr 22, 2018
What facts? All I'm seeing coming from you is opinion... Which is derailing the entire thread.
I'm the one who actually provided a definition of what a "main series" game was. You, on the other hand, dismissed it without providing a source of your own.
I loathe RSE and FRLG, but I would never dismiss either as being "cheap spin-offs," because they still fit the definition of what a "main series" game is. You, on the other hand, won't give the Yellow the same courtesy.
Here are some other posts you've made elsewhere in the forum:
How are these statements NOT biased? And, how do these NOT also imply a hatred for the anime? (Which, you're allowed to hate... Just OWN up to it!)
Now, can we please get back to the topic of the thread?
- 510
- Posts
- 11
- Years
- Seen Jun 8, 2024
You are the one who brought Yellow into the discussion, and when some shared a different opinion than yours about it, you started making false claims.
Not an official definition, since Game Freak never made a statement about it.
I don't have to, the same way I don't have to share your opinion.
And what are the relevance of them to this thread? Isn't it ironic that you claim that I'm derailing this thread when all you do is make baseless accusations about me and bring posts made on different threads over here?
They aren't. My feeling towards the anime are completely irrelevant to the fact that Yellow was an anime adaptation. That's a fact, not even up to debate. Yet you can't seem to accept it.
That's up to you.
FR/LG are remakes of Red and Green, nothing more.
That's your opinion, not mine.
Yes, they are. Denying it doesn't make them less baseless.
You haven't provided any evidence for where I'm derailing the thread. You claim that I'm derailing it for not accepting Yellow as canon when that's completely false since I never made any statements about canon. You claim that I'm derailing because I'm discussing Yellow on a FR/LG thread when I wasn't the one who brought it into this discussion, etc, etc... Do I need to go on...?
That's not a fact, it's your subjective opinion. I don't share it, deal with it. Also, 'spin-off' and 'canon' aren't mutually exclusive.
It takes at least two to argue, so look at your own comments before making claims about others.
This is a discussion board. If you can't handle different opinions then you're in the wrong place.
Dude you're just being a prick at this point. The evidence is the tons of posts you've made taking up half of the page trying to convince others you're right, everyone else is wrong, and Yellow is a terrible game and shouldn't be mentioned anywhere. You can think whatever you want and say what you want but you're derailing the thread around your own opinions, completely ignoring the main purpose of this thread. If you're so dissed that Yellow exists go make your own thread and leave this one alone! You are not adding anything at this point; you're just trying to inflate your own ego and you're annoying everybody else here. I'd be more than happy to argue about Pokemon Yellow in a proper thread that isn't about Pokemon FireRed and LeafGreen in the section made for the third generation of Pokemon games. This is the wrong dang place. We wish to talk about the remakes and why they were as bad as they were and how they could have been made better. That is the dang freaking title of the thread. If you don't wanna adhere to it go complain somewhere else. Don't just drag your own prejudices into the thread and act inconsiderate toward the people who actually WANT to talk about FR/LG.
- 895
- Posts
- 9
- Years
- Seen Apr 22, 2018
Says the person who derailed an entire thread because somebody disagreed with him about a certain game. :rolleyes2:
To get back on topic, what are some things you would've changed about FRLG? Here are mine:
- All later Gen pre/evolutions obtainable in Kanto, along with every other Gen 2 Pokémon that was originally planned for Gen 1 (giving us a Regional Dex of around 190)
- At least, a watered-down clock like RSE's, if not full Day/Night
- Weather effects
- Berry Trees (or, at least, Berry Pots)
- A phone like the PokéGear and PokéNav
- Breeding on Route 5 Daycare
- Following Pokémon
- Gym Leaders based on Yellow (but with Koga and Sabrina's levels nerfed and their teams slightly altered)
- Unselected PC has a secondary rival role (the guy would be named "Red" and the girl would be named "Green")
- Jessie and James return as double battles (and have more appearances after Silph Co.)
- Team Rocket's connection to Mewtwo is fleshed-out
- Lugia's connection to Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres is fleshed-out
- The Sevii Islands are either expanded into a full region or scrapped for either the Orange Islands or Johto
- You can trade with RSE right away without any annoying sidequests, just like HGSS can trade with DPP from the get-go
Any other ideas?- At least, a watered-down clock like RSE's, if not full Day/Night
- Weather effects
- Berry Trees (or, at least, Berry Pots)
- A phone like the PokéGear and PokéNav
- Breeding on Route 5 Daycare
- Following Pokémon
- Gym Leaders based on Yellow (but with Koga and Sabrina's levels nerfed and their teams slightly altered)
- Unselected PC has a secondary rival role (the guy would be named "Red" and the girl would be named "Green")
- Jessie and James return as double battles (and have more appearances after Silph Co.)
- Team Rocket's connection to Mewtwo is fleshed-out
- Lugia's connection to Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres is fleshed-out
- The Sevii Islands are either expanded into a full region or scrapped for either the Orange Islands or Johto
- You can trade with RSE right away without any annoying sidequests, just like HGSS can trade with DPP from the get-go
Throwing my hat in here. :) Long(ish) post...
I think it's possible we're looking at these games with the benefit of hindsight. The games were released almost 11 years ago and we've had two quite impressive remakes since which have set a precedent. We mustn't forget these were the very first Pokémon remakes, and there was no precedent set. It was a different time. What do you do? Do you try and stay as faithful as possible to the originals or do you add features, regions and plot to bring it in line with the current generation? The risk with the second strategy is that you may end up diluting and ruining the experience.
If the FRLG remakes were proposed to me right now after HGSS and ORAS, I would say yes, absolutely add the extra features and plot additions we've come to love because I know that it's possible to add them and still stay faithful to the originals, that'd be fantastic. But back in 2004, I would've err'd on the side of caution. This was RBY we were talking about. This was genesis. This was hallowed ground. I would have been very nervous that it would be ruined by Hoenn Pokémon or different plots arcs or characters, etc.
Personally I thoroughly enjoyed FRLG, more so than RSE. I certainly found myself coming back to FRLG during the DS era as opposed to RSE, but it's a little difficult to say why. I think what I liked about it was that instead of concentrating on gameplay gimmicks and features, the developers instead concentrated on refinements, i.e. making the game as smooth and clutter-free as possible. It's certainly a huge improvement over the RS engine, it's noticeably faster, the text is more readable and there are quite a few gameplay enhancements (icons for the bag for instance), a lot of which patched into Emerald (which is more than can be said for the initial pre-patched Diamond & Pearl experience *shudders*). They're little things, admittedly, but I do love small, thoughtful touches above all. It's quite nice for a game to get out of the way and just let me play if you know what I mean. I think that this refined gameplay is possibly the reason why the FireRed engine seems to be the defacto choice for ROM hackers.
I also liked the extent the developers went to to keep faithful to the originals - little things like the START menu deliberately resized from RSE to not take up all the screen, or the hero deliberately not turning around to face a trainer who's spotted them, echoing the programming oversight in the originals. I also like the lava cookie near the truck as a small tribute to fans and the legendary Mew theory. I like how legendary Pokémon, instead of having their own theme, have kept the standard wild battle theme but with a remixed twist.
I quite enjoyed the addition of the Sevii Isles and their links to Johto. I would have liked to seen more out of them but I was more than happy with what I got. Weirdly enough, the only feature I actively missed out of RSE was berry trees, though I could live with it. :P I actually miss the VS Seeker - I much preferred that than having to either wait for someone to call me or look them up on the PokéNav, though ORAS really came through in that regard with its trainer alerts so I'm happy.
I had no issues per-say with the addition of the help system, the battle tutorial and the Teachy TV, since it helped ease brand new players into the game. Considering that the games are designed to be playable for children of 3-10 years, it was slightly baffling that something like this hadn't been introduced before. I think they may have gone a little overboard, and they obviously reigned it back in later releases, but it's by no means a game breaker because, as a veteran player, you can just switch them off. It also meant that you didn't have to buy a strategy guide or look through the manual as a first-time player - by providing an easy-to-understand all-digital in-game help system, it was arguably ahead of its time.
Despite lack of gameplay features compared to RSE, they were still the second best-selling games of all time for the Gameboy Advance behind Emerald, and they also received a Player's Choice edition (a distinction not shared with RSE), suggesting that they did at least do something right.
In any case, I regard FRLG as a vital first step - testing the waters (including wireless play). Players were more than receptive of the remakes, the additional features that were present and were hungry for more, and it gave Game Freak the confidence to make more remakes with even better features and additional plot extras that we've all come to enjoy.
I think it's possible we're looking at these games with the benefit of hindsight. The games were released almost 11 years ago and we've had two quite impressive remakes since which have set a precedent. We mustn't forget these were the very first Pokémon remakes, and there was no precedent set. It was a different time. What do you do? Do you try and stay as faithful as possible to the originals or do you add features, regions and plot to bring it in line with the current generation? The risk with the second strategy is that you may end up diluting and ruining the experience.
If the FRLG remakes were proposed to me right now after HGSS and ORAS, I would say yes, absolutely add the extra features and plot additions we've come to love because I know that it's possible to add them and still stay faithful to the originals, that'd be fantastic. But back in 2004, I would've err'd on the side of caution. This was RBY we were talking about. This was genesis. This was hallowed ground. I would have been very nervous that it would be ruined by Hoenn Pokémon or different plots arcs or characters, etc.
Personally I thoroughly enjoyed FRLG, more so than RSE. I certainly found myself coming back to FRLG during the DS era as opposed to RSE, but it's a little difficult to say why. I think what I liked about it was that instead of concentrating on gameplay gimmicks and features, the developers instead concentrated on refinements, i.e. making the game as smooth and clutter-free as possible. It's certainly a huge improvement over the RS engine, it's noticeably faster, the text is more readable and there are quite a few gameplay enhancements (icons for the bag for instance), a lot of which patched into Emerald (which is more than can be said for the initial pre-patched Diamond & Pearl experience *shudders*). They're little things, admittedly, but I do love small, thoughtful touches above all. It's quite nice for a game to get out of the way and just let me play if you know what I mean. I think that this refined gameplay is possibly the reason why the FireRed engine seems to be the defacto choice for ROM hackers.
I also liked the extent the developers went to to keep faithful to the originals - little things like the START menu deliberately resized from RSE to not take up all the screen, or the hero deliberately not turning around to face a trainer who's spotted them, echoing the programming oversight in the originals. I also like the lava cookie near the truck as a small tribute to fans and the legendary Mew theory. I like how legendary Pokémon, instead of having their own theme, have kept the standard wild battle theme but with a remixed twist.
I quite enjoyed the addition of the Sevii Isles and their links to Johto. I would have liked to seen more out of them but I was more than happy with what I got. Weirdly enough, the only feature I actively missed out of RSE was berry trees, though I could live with it. :P I actually miss the VS Seeker - I much preferred that than having to either wait for someone to call me or look them up on the PokéNav, though ORAS really came through in that regard with its trainer alerts so I'm happy.
I had no issues per-say with the addition of the help system, the battle tutorial and the Teachy TV, since it helped ease brand new players into the game. Considering that the games are designed to be playable for children of 3-10 years, it was slightly baffling that something like this hadn't been introduced before. I think they may have gone a little overboard, and they obviously reigned it back in later releases, but it's by no means a game breaker because, as a veteran player, you can just switch them off. It also meant that you didn't have to buy a strategy guide or look through the manual as a first-time player - by providing an easy-to-understand all-digital in-game help system, it was arguably ahead of its time.
Despite lack of gameplay features compared to RSE, they were still the second best-selling games of all time for the Gameboy Advance behind Emerald, and they also received a Player's Choice edition (a distinction not shared with RSE), suggesting that they did at least do something right.
In any case, I regard FRLG as a vital first step - testing the waters (including wireless play). Players were more than receptive of the remakes, the additional features that were present and were hungry for more, and it gave Game Freak the confidence to make more remakes with even better features and additional plot extras that we've all come to enjoy.
- 895
- Posts
- 9
- Years
- Seen Apr 22, 2018
Very interesting post, Kip.
It could be said that FRLG were made under very different (and rather unfortunate circumstances) compared to HGSS and ORAS. The later remakes were mostly made as a favor to veteran fans and because the then-current handhelds could no longer play the originals, with the DS killing GB/C compatibility and the 3DS (well, technically, DSi) killing GBA compatibility. Both the GSC and RSE cartridges also suffered from battery issues that made them difficult to play (especially in the case of the former), an unfortunate side-effect of both games having a clock before their respective handhelds were really capable of supporting the feature.
With FRLG, it was different. RBY could still be played on the GBA, they weren't plagued with dead batteries, and the games were only 5-6 years old--out of print, but not terribly hard to find for a reasonable price.
Instead, the only real issue was Ruby and Sapphire. They couldn't trade with the earlier Generations, and they only had 200 of the 386 total Pokémon, leaving a whopping 186 completely MIA. Many people feared that the franchise had been rebooted for real and that those "missing" Pokémon were gone for good, along with the regions and characters from RBY/GSC (as Ruby and Sapphire contained few to no references to Kanto/Johto).
So, thus, FRLG could be seen as a last-ditch attempt on GF's part to win back the people repelled by Ruby and Sapphire and bring back those "missing" Pokémon. There's just no other way to explain why the games were rushed out so early, years before they should've been made, IMO. If it hadn't been for Ruby and Sapphire's hard reboot, we probably wouldn't have gotten FRLG until well into the DS era, at the earliest.
Things have changed since then. Now, both RBY and FRLG are 10 or more years old, neither of which can be played on a 3DS. Age has also finally started to catch up to RBY's cartridge batteries (since they lacked a clock, they took longer to die than GSC and RSE). And, both versions of Gen 1 are long out of print and are literally selling for a fortune on sites like eBay. ($900 for a 15 year old Pokémon game, whoo-hoo!) And, if it's any cheaper than an arm and a leg, it's probably a bootleg.
And, most importantly, GF has learned how to make remakes since then. These are all reasons why Gen 1 could use another go and get its own HGSS or ORAS. Give the original games the remakes they deserve, not the remakes another pair of games need.
It could be said that FRLG were made under very different (and rather unfortunate circumstances) compared to HGSS and ORAS. The later remakes were mostly made as a favor to veteran fans and because the then-current handhelds could no longer play the originals, with the DS killing GB/C compatibility and the 3DS (well, technically, DSi) killing GBA compatibility. Both the GSC and RSE cartridges also suffered from battery issues that made them difficult to play (especially in the case of the former), an unfortunate side-effect of both games having a clock before their respective handhelds were really capable of supporting the feature.
With FRLG, it was different. RBY could still be played on the GBA, they weren't plagued with dead batteries, and the games were only 5-6 years old--out of print, but not terribly hard to find for a reasonable price.
Instead, the only real issue was Ruby and Sapphire. They couldn't trade with the earlier Generations, and they only had 200 of the 386 total Pokémon, leaving a whopping 186 completely MIA. Many people feared that the franchise had been rebooted for real and that those "missing" Pokémon were gone for good, along with the regions and characters from RBY/GSC (as Ruby and Sapphire contained few to no references to Kanto/Johto).
So, thus, FRLG could be seen as a last-ditch attempt on GF's part to win back the people repelled by Ruby and Sapphire and bring back those "missing" Pokémon. There's just no other way to explain why the games were rushed out so early, years before they should've been made, IMO. If it hadn't been for Ruby and Sapphire's hard reboot, we probably wouldn't have gotten FRLG until well into the DS era, at the earliest.
Things have changed since then. Now, both RBY and FRLG are 10 or more years old, neither of which can be played on a 3DS. Age has also finally started to catch up to RBY's cartridge batteries (since they lacked a clock, they took longer to die than GSC and RSE). And, both versions of Gen 1 are long out of print and are literally selling for a fortune on sites like eBay. ($900 for a 15 year old Pokémon game, whoo-hoo!) And, if it's any cheaper than an arm and a leg, it's probably a bootleg.
And, most importantly, GF has learned how to make remakes since then. These are all reasons why Gen 1 could use another go and get its own HGSS or ORAS. Give the original games the remakes they deserve, not the remakes another pair of games need.
I remember when FireRed and LeafGreen were announced Pokemon fans everywhere were happy they were going to get to play the remakes of Red and Blue for the Gameboy Advance.
It seems to me that since that people's expectations have grown along with the franchise. I enjoy FireRed/LeafGreen because they didn't deviate too much from what made their predecessors so successful. It wasn't about having a Night/Day system or any of the bells and whistles R/S/E had. So when compared to HGSS or ORAS, FRLG are going to pale in comparison, however I don't believe it was the goal of GameFreaks to remake Red/Blue to begin with.
Their premise was simple...recapture the novelty and creativity of catching Pokemon in the GameBoy Advance era. With the releases HGSS and ORAS people's expectations are much more strict than it was when FRLG were first released.
It seems to me that since that people's expectations have grown along with the franchise. I enjoy FireRed/LeafGreen because they didn't deviate too much from what made their predecessors so successful. It wasn't about having a Night/Day system or any of the bells and whistles R/S/E had. So when compared to HGSS or ORAS, FRLG are going to pale in comparison, however I don't believe it was the goal of GameFreaks to remake Red/Blue to begin with.
Their premise was simple...recapture the novelty and creativity of catching Pokemon in the GameBoy Advance era. With the releases HGSS and ORAS people's expectations are much more strict than it was when FRLG were first released.
CoffeeDrink
GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
- 1,250
- Posts
- 10
- Years
- Lootin' Your Poké's
- Seen Dec 5, 2016
Well, suffice it to say that Fire Red and Leaf Green don't deserve the ridicule that they're seeing here.
Hey You Pikachu! This. This game. What went wrong with Hey You Pikachu!? Everything. Worst Pokémon game ever. But I digress. . .
It's astonishing that these games receive tons of heat for just existing, but this is beyond ridiculous at how they've become attacked and nitpicked to the point where I have to stop and scratch my head. For me, Kanto is better than Hoenn so it automatically has favor behind it, but that aside why continually permeate the area with tiny little nitpicks about the game?
What's that? You don't like the Fame Checker or the Teachy T.V.? Well bully for you! That's like going to the grocery store and hating on all the grapefruits. Can't reach the bananas without passing the grapefruits so I suggest getting over the fact that there are items in the game that are 'useless' and don't add any significance to the game. You don't have to buy or eat the grapefruits and the same can be said about the Teachy T.V. Or maybe you're concerned that the addition of grapefruits in the produce section retracts from the experience of picking out potatoes.
Hey You Pikachu! This. This game. What went wrong with Hey You Pikachu!? Everything. Worst Pokémon game ever. But I digress. . .
It's astonishing that these games receive tons of heat for just existing, but this is beyond ridiculous at how they've become attacked and nitpicked to the point where I have to stop and scratch my head. For me, Kanto is better than Hoenn so it automatically has favor behind it, but that aside why continually permeate the area with tiny little nitpicks about the game?
What's that? You don't like the Fame Checker or the Teachy T.V.? Well bully for you! That's like going to the grocery store and hating on all the grapefruits. Can't reach the bananas without passing the grapefruits so I suggest getting over the fact that there are items in the game that are 'useless' and don't add any significance to the game. You don't have to buy or eat the grapefruits and the same can be said about the Teachy T.V. Or maybe you're concerned that the addition of grapefruits in the produce section retracts from the experience of picking out potatoes.
It's not so much pure hatred for FR/LG. It's a decent game, it works pretty glitch free, and it is a wonderful port of Pokemon Red and Green. It's just that we have HG/SS, which not only brings back what we loved in Gold and Silver but adds to it in such a way that it enhances it and makes it even better than the game it was based off of. Especially concerning Kanto; all the changes made to Kanto are still there, but many of the things people missed like Mewtwo and the legendary birds being missing and Viridian Forest were returned, and all kinds of awesome crap was added like the Pokethelon and Johto's very own Battle Frontier and even a Safari Zone that let you customize which Pokemon you ran into. Compared to those games, which are even better than the originals, FR/LG are quite bare bones. There's no real way of getting berries outside of Berry Forest, there's no weather, there's no breeding until post game, and while the Sevii Islands were great and there was more of a post game added, the game could still have been made better than it was. How awesome would it have been for the Sevii Islands to be their own region, and for a Battle Frontier to have been added instead of the Trainer Tower, or having Pikachu be able to follow the trainer and have the surfing minigame available, or simply even being able to evolve Pokemon without the aid of the National Dex? Blissey and Crobat are unobtainable until after you beat the game, and it sucks for your beloved Chansey or Golbat to be barred from their final stage of evolution because they're not in the Regional Dex even though they should be. And then there's the long quest of making long distance trades possible, which shouldn't have been so complicated.
Nobody is saying they're the worst remakes ever, and they were adequate for reliving our memories in Kanto. But they could have been on the same tier as HeartGold and SoulSilver, and that's what we're discussing here.
CoffeeDrink
GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
- 1,250
- Posts
- 10
- Years
- Lootin' Your Poké's
- Seen Dec 5, 2016
I see, but look at it from the 'true' perspective and the purists. To change so much within the games such as adding breeding, berries, and a slew of other options may have detracted from that Blue/Red Experience you see. It's bare bones perhaps because it was bare bones to begin with. So, as the record stands, Leaf Green and Fire Red are closer to 'updates' than those of Gold and Silver. Sure, they could have been better, but then again when has that not been said about any video game? They removed several glitches in the game and it was a smooth transitioning experience. To rail on it like no tomorrow clearly shows, to me, that some can never be truly pleased no matter what. It felt like Kanto, and that's what it was supposed to do. Mission accomplished.
Still HeartGold and SoulSilver had all the old Apricorn trees but allowed you to grow berries too. HeartGold and SoulSilver returned Viridian Forest from a path in a bunch of trees to a full on forest again, as well as restoring Seafoam Islands to their former glory. Gold and Silver didn't have the Unknown Dungeon, and HG/SS restored it. In short, it made the region better and more fleshed out than if it had just copied everything from Gold and Silver without improving on it.
The idea of a remake isn't just to copy over an old game and put a new coat of paint on it. The idea is to improve things that could have been made better, and make it a more compelling experience. FireRed and LeafGreen were good but they weren't as good as they could have been. Maybe they didn't need a lot of bells or whistles, but they still could have added some things Red and Blue lacked while keeping the feel of the region. As they are, they're alright, but they could have been made the best freaking remakes of Red and Blue EVER. After all, the originals will always be there. If you enjoy the simplicity
The help system and Teachy TV were not originally in Red and Blue. I actually used Teachy TV because LeafGreen was my first Pokemon game and I had no clue how the mechanics worked. I thought it was fine, and it's way better than having your rival teach you how to catch Pokemon for the 15th time with no way to opt out of it. The requirements for catching Pokemon to get certain things I think were originally in Red and Blue with the exception of getting the National Dex, as... well.. there was no National Dex. 151 Pokemon were all there were, discounting the other 100 something glitches.
Cerberus87
Mega Houndoom, baby!
- 1,639
- Posts
- 11
- Years
- Dream World
- Seen Dec 21, 2016
All this talk about FRLG "forgetting" Yellow is funny, because ORAS also "forgot" Emerald, even going as far as cutting characters only introduced in Emerald (Juan and Scott), and reusing the inferior gym rosters from RS, yet ORAS is being praised for being a "proper" remake.
Let's not forget that the Delta Episode, which is NOT a nod to Emerald but an entirely new thing and a way to fit Rayquaza into the RS modified story, was where Pokémon pulled a Dallas with its "alternate timelines" story, which effectively renders all games from 3rd to 5th gen irrelevant.
So no, I definitely don't consider ORAS a "proper" remake.
I'll even go as far as saying the only reason they added so much stuff to HGSS is because the original game had a lot of things cut out from it, due to space, and the larger DS carts were more than enough to expand on the original regions. Also, GF addressed some fan issues with the games, namely the lack of Safari Zone.
Compared to Hoenn, the Johto/Kanto pair of GSC had much more room for improvement. What would they add to Hoenn, really? There was nothing, because the region was already "locked down". The only way they could expand it was to the sky, which they did with the soaring feature.
They could've added Johto to FRLG but it wouldn't work story-wise because Red is already supposed to be the "ultimate" trainer when he becomes Champion. What excuse would he have to go to Johto to earn more badges? GSC had an excuse: Red himself. But in FRLG there was no such further challenge.
Adding to what Kip said, another feature in FRLG that carried over to future games was E4 rematches. FRLG were the first games to have that.
Let's not forget that the Delta Episode, which is NOT a nod to Emerald but an entirely new thing and a way to fit Rayquaza into the RS modified story, was where Pokémon pulled a Dallas with its "alternate timelines" story, which effectively renders all games from 3rd to 5th gen irrelevant.
So no, I definitely don't consider ORAS a "proper" remake.
I'll even go as far as saying the only reason they added so much stuff to HGSS is because the original game had a lot of things cut out from it, due to space, and the larger DS carts were more than enough to expand on the original regions. Also, GF addressed some fan issues with the games, namely the lack of Safari Zone.
Compared to Hoenn, the Johto/Kanto pair of GSC had much more room for improvement. What would they add to Hoenn, really? There was nothing, because the region was already "locked down". The only way they could expand it was to the sky, which they did with the soaring feature.
They could've added Johto to FRLG but it wouldn't work story-wise because Red is already supposed to be the "ultimate" trainer when he becomes Champion. What excuse would he have to go to Johto to earn more badges? GSC had an excuse: Red himself. But in FRLG there was no such further challenge.
Adding to what Kip said, another feature in FRLG that carried over to future games was E4 rematches. FRLG were the first games to have that.
- 6,266
- Posts
- 10
- Years
- Age 33
- Pennsylvania
- Seen Jul 30, 2021
As one who just recently completed Leaf Green for a challenge I did, allow me to state... Some people already mentioned, but as these games were meant to be remakes of the original RB, and not Generation I as a whole, I didn't mind that they left out things from Yellow. But in general, there was a lot about them I enjoyed - there were things about them left to be desired, but I don't mind playing them.
Well... there WERE some places near Hoenn like Faraway Island.... maybe expand on that? Or they could have a huge cave system underneath the sea a la Final Fantasy IV. Or an underwater kingdom. Heck have them version exclusives for Ruby and Sapphire respectively. But that's beside the point. (To be honest I don't really consider them remakes either. They're what if scenarios at best; I refuse to think of them as proper remakes.)
I doubt we could really go into Johto in FR/LG, as we'd just be seeing the region in a beta state, but the Sevii Isles could use some expansion. The idea they had behind them was to make them bigger, and I'd love to see them bigger with maybe even some Hoenn Pokemon like Wingull available, seeing as how Sevii is pretty far out at sea like Hoenn.
Cerberus87
Mega Houndoom, baby!
- 1,639
- Posts
- 11
- Years
- Dream World
- Seen Dec 21, 2016
A remake doesn't really need to add much to the original game. Star Fox 64 3D was criticized for being too similar to the N64 original. But I think the criticism is baseless, because the game was already pretty solid from the get go, and adding more would make it worse.
SF643D is worth it because:
- Graphics. The 3DS shits all over the N64 graphics wise, and it also has the 3D effect which I found good.
- Portability. 3DS is portable, so you can play the game everywhere, unlike the N64.
- Hiscore mode. This is a BIG plus that's often overlooked. For hardcore players, it's a great feature, because it means you don't have to play the story to try a high score on a specific level.
- Better multiplayer. It only works locally but it's far more varied than on the N64. We lost Landmaster and on-foot characters, sure, but those were vastly inferior to the Arwing anyway, and the new power ups make up for it.
Voices aren't the same, which is a bummer, but they had to change them because of rights issues.
I had a blast playing through SF643D, even though it was just the same game I owned on the N64 with a new coat of paint.
I also disagree that FRLG were "rushed". I could say the original Red and Green were "rushed", too, because of the incredible amount of glitches in those games, but there's no direct correlation to being "rushed". Games are usually planned at least 3 years before their release. It's quite possible GF made Ruby and Sapphire already with the idea they'd remake 1st gen some time later.
Also, the timing of their release makes sense because they're remakes of Red and Green, which were released in Japan in 1996. FRLG were released in 2004, that's 8 years later, which is a lot of time.
Finally, I never use the Teachy TV, to the point of not even knowing it's there sometimes, and the battle tutorial only lasts during a single battle at the very beginning of the game, so it's not a big issue, especially when a lot of modern games have amounts of handholding that far exceed what's in FRLG, and especially modern Pokémon games tend to have forced Pokémon catching tutorials.
SF643D is worth it because:
- Graphics. The 3DS shits all over the N64 graphics wise, and it also has the 3D effect which I found good.
- Portability. 3DS is portable, so you can play the game everywhere, unlike the N64.
- Hiscore mode. This is a BIG plus that's often overlooked. For hardcore players, it's a great feature, because it means you don't have to play the story to try a high score on a specific level.
- Better multiplayer. It only works locally but it's far more varied than on the N64. We lost Landmaster and on-foot characters, sure, but those were vastly inferior to the Arwing anyway, and the new power ups make up for it.
Voices aren't the same, which is a bummer, but they had to change them because of rights issues.
I had a blast playing through SF643D, even though it was just the same game I owned on the N64 with a new coat of paint.
I also disagree that FRLG were "rushed". I could say the original Red and Green were "rushed", too, because of the incredible amount of glitches in those games, but there's no direct correlation to being "rushed". Games are usually planned at least 3 years before their release. It's quite possible GF made Ruby and Sapphire already with the idea they'd remake 1st gen some time later.
Also, the timing of their release makes sense because they're remakes of Red and Green, which were released in Japan in 1996. FRLG were released in 2004, that's 8 years later, which is a lot of time.
Finally, I never use the Teachy TV, to the point of not even knowing it's there sometimes, and the battle tutorial only lasts during a single battle at the very beginning of the game, so it's not a big issue, especially when a lot of modern games have amounts of handholding that far exceed what's in FRLG, and especially modern Pokémon games tend to have forced Pokémon catching tutorials.
Chronosplit
I play for keeps!
- 494
- Posts
- 13
- Years
- Seen today
FRLG is good, it does everything it set out to do. Good remake, fixes every single bug with the original thanks to the Gen 3 engine, contributed some code to Emerald, made Pokemon available that weren't before, manages to look better and be better built than Ruby/Sapphire, and added a decent island postgame. It's a great game that... I don't understand the opinions in this thread about.
There is one thing I find went wrong with it though: though it succeeded in making Kanto feel like Kanto, it stuck too close. You have Pokemon in Gym Leader's teams for no reason other than because it was there in the originals, completely screwing up why they were there in the first place (Sabrina's Venomoth, Blaine's pre-evolved Pokemon, Bruno's Onix). You have the trainer fixed in facing just because they did it in the originals (though it's long been fixed, thanks Jambo51). Limited evolutions while a decent idea to preserve Kanto, end up more annoying than anything when only seven (five when taking complete lack of RTC into account) actually needed to be barred and could be easily incorporated in later teams because breeding and trading to other versions never happened until post-game (fixed without needing the National Dex). Some movesets, while improved over the originals later in the game, aren't very imaginative compared to their Hoenn counterparts (Lt. Surge, Blaine, Giovanni as leader). While it's true that the game didn't add too much and I'm more than fine with that approach, they went out of their way to replicate things long fixed.
Nowadays we've easily hacked out these annoyances that were created for first-time players. Help was always able to be turned off, Oak tutorials are easy as whiting out six bytes, remove the intro/journal if desired, etc.. I get why they were there, but why didn't they do this with Ruby/Sapphire instead? The intended audience is people who played before obviously, so they don't need this stuff. The biggest crime about this however is twofold: in the beginning of the game, where before Brock the Nidorans are replaced with Yellow's Mankey making it about as easy as "Low Kick everything" as opposed to thinking around it with discovering what Nidorans/Butterfree/your starter learns, and SelfDestruct is removed from almost every trainer that can use it. Check the trainer data, it proves it via custom movesets.
But hey, we've long since ironed these out. This is a good remake. I just hope later when they revisit they'll be ironed out officially.
There is one thing I find went wrong with it though: though it succeeded in making Kanto feel like Kanto, it stuck too close. You have Pokemon in Gym Leader's teams for no reason other than because it was there in the originals, completely screwing up why they were there in the first place (Sabrina's Venomoth, Blaine's pre-evolved Pokemon, Bruno's Onix). You have the trainer fixed in facing just because they did it in the originals (though it's long been fixed, thanks Jambo51). Limited evolutions while a decent idea to preserve Kanto, end up more annoying than anything when only seven (five when taking complete lack of RTC into account) actually needed to be barred and could be easily incorporated in later teams because breeding and trading to other versions never happened until post-game (fixed without needing the National Dex). Some movesets, while improved over the originals later in the game, aren't very imaginative compared to their Hoenn counterparts (Lt. Surge, Blaine, Giovanni as leader). While it's true that the game didn't add too much and I'm more than fine with that approach, they went out of their way to replicate things long fixed.
Nowadays we've easily hacked out these annoyances that were created for first-time players. Help was always able to be turned off, Oak tutorials are easy as whiting out six bytes, remove the intro/journal if desired, etc.. I get why they were there, but why didn't they do this with Ruby/Sapphire instead? The intended audience is people who played before obviously, so they don't need this stuff. The biggest crime about this however is twofold: in the beginning of the game, where before Brock the Nidorans are replaced with Yellow's Mankey making it about as easy as "Low Kick everything" as opposed to thinking around it with discovering what Nidorans/Butterfree/your starter learns, and SelfDestruct is removed from almost every trainer that can use it. Check the trainer data, it proves it via custom movesets.
But hey, we've long since ironed these out. This is a good remake. I just hope later when they revisit they'll be ironed out officially.
Last edited: