Should we change Christmas so it is no longer a Christian holiday?

Our western countries are becoming a lot more diverse in terms of religion and we should change our culture to accomodate that. Christmas is a huge part of our culture but many people of non-Christian faiths are excluded from it because they do not believe in Jesus. There are so many non-Christian people living here and they must feel really sad when it gets around to Christmas and they aren't allowed to join in the fun. I think that western countries should alter Christmas so that it is no longer a Christian-related holiday, and then everyone can celebrate it! We should call it International Presents Day or Winter Festival.

After all, I think that barely anyone really cares that Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ. All we care about is the presents and parties. That is the true spirit of Christmas and as long as that remains then Christmas will still be good. In fact, Christmas is not even a Christian holiday: it was originally a Pagan holiday called Yuletide but the Christians stole it!

Of course Christians can still have a day to celebrate the birth of Christ but it should be a lower-key event.

The western world is still mostly Christian though. And a large portion that aren't are atheists/agnostics from a Christian background.

So, it should still be a national holiday. And it IS a Christian holiday. You can't change that.

Are you going to say Ramadan is no longer an Islamic practice in the western world because there are not as many Muslims as other religions? No.

Surmonter said:

The western world is still mostly Christian though. And a large portion that aren't are atheists/agnostics from a Christian background.

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I think it's mostly just America that is religious. In European countries hardly anyone is religious and a lot of the people who are religious are not serious about their religion.

Surmonter said:

So, it should still be a national holiday. And it IS a Christian holiday. You can't change that.

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It wasn't always a Christian holiday though, so it has already been changed.

Surmonter said:

Are you going to say Ramadan is no longer an Islamic practice in the western world because there are not as many Muslims as other religions? No.

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I think you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that Christmas is such a big and impactful event that it's only fair for us to make it accessible to everyone, otherwise the Muslims and Jews and people of other religions who live in western countries might feel as though they don't fit into our culture.

Jolene said:

I think it's mostly just America that is religious. In European countries hardly anyone is religious and a lot of the people who are religious are not serious about their religion.

It wasn't always a Christian holiday though, so it has already been changed.

I think you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that Christmas is such a big and impactful event that it's only fair for us to make it accessible to everyone, otherwise the Muslims and Jews and people of other religions who live in western countries might feel as though they don't fit into our culture.

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It was a pagan holiday, but adopted as a Christian holiday in the 1500's I believe to make it easier for Pagans to convert to Catholicism. Just clarifying

Even in Europe, the majority of people are Christian or atheists/agnostics who come from a Christian background.

Uh, who said Jews and Muslims can't celebrate Christmas or that they don't get any of the benefits such as getting days off work? They do. They also get days off for their own religious holidays. I know many Muslims who celebrate Christmas by the way, because Jesus is still a religious figure in their religion. Just not the messiah.

The thing about America, and the majority of western countries is that there is no true culture. There are smaller separate cultures in a larger society, each with their own traditions. This isn't as true in Europe, but it still occurs. Just not as much as in the U.S.

Also, having different cultures is a good thing. It creates diversity. What you're basically saying is that culture differences should be wiped out, just because they're different.

Surmonter said:

Also, having different cultures is a good thing. It creates diversity. What you're basically saying is that culture differences should be wiped out, just because they're different.

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Hmm I think you've missed the point again, or perhaps I didn't explain things well enough but I dunno I think I did. I am not saying that different cultures should be wiped out. I dunno why you think I meant that because I didn't say anything like that at all.

I think Christmas should be a non-religious holiday is because I want it to be accessible to people of all different cultures. I thought I made that clear enough but I dunno perhaps I did not.

Christians can still have a holiday which celebrates the birth of Jesus, but it must not be right at the heart of western culture like it is now, because having a Christian-centric holiday at the heart of a multi-cultural society is wrong!

It's only a Christian holiday if you want to celebrate it as one. Anyone can celebrate any holiday however they want, as long as it doesn't break local laws.

I would rather celebrate the Russian "Christmas"/New Year, just for fun. :P

Jolene said:

Hmm I think you've missed the point again, or perhaps I didn't explain things well enough but I dunno I think I did. I am not saying that different cultures should be wiped out. I dunno why you think I meant that because I didn't say anything like that at all.

I think Christmas should be a non-religious holiday is because I want it to be accessible to people of all different cultures. I thought I made that clear enough but I dunno perhaps I did not.

Christians can still have a holiday which celebrates the birth of Jesus, but it must not be right at the heart of western culture like it is now, because having a Christian-centric holiday at the heart of a multi-cultural society is wrong!

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Your reasoning is because other cultures feel left out.

Also, you can't take away the religious aspect of Christmas.

Let's take it away from Easter too.

Hell, let's do the same to Good Friday. Why stop at that? LET'S DO IT TO LENT TOO.

And like I said before, there is nothing saying other religions can't celebrate Christmas.

I don't think that would ever happen, at least not for a long time yet.

Heck no, if we do that then is isn't the USA anymore.

Jolene said:

Christians can still have a holiday which celebrates the birth of Jesus, but it must not be right at the heart of western culture like it is now, because having a Christian-centric holiday at the heart of a multi-cultural society is wrong!

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Actually, If I read this correctly, I believe she is right. Because, so many people know about Christmas and celebrate it, yet the know nothing about the meaning of the holiday and the birth of Christ, in fact, one could easily tell you that it was a holiday based on getting gifts. If we moved Christmas closer to Christ's actual birth, we could have a day that was the public "Christmas" devoted to public and commercial devotion, and the religious Chistmas, where Christmas is celebrated at church. I think ths could work. I'm sorry if this offends, but I go to church, and I think this is effective.

Lemme have a crack at this, simply because I love easy fights.

Jolene said:

Our western countries are becoming a lot more diverse in terms of religion and we should change our culture to accomodate that.

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Look up the term "Melting pot." American culture, though it may be the product of Satan, is centered around diversity, political correctness, and good feelings.

Christmas is a huge part of our culture but many people of non-Christian faiths are excluded from it because they do not believe in Jesus.

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1. Know what X-Mas is (Well, technically, it's a Greek shortening of Christmas, using Chi Ro, but...)? It's what non-Christians call Christmas so they can celebrate Christmas without being tainted by our pagan ways.

2. Where does it say you have to believe in Jesus? Easter is much more "Christian", and yet everyone celebrates that as well.

There are so many non-Christian people living here and they must feel really sad when it gets around to Christmas and they aren't allowed to join in the fun.

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Right. Go over to Japan, and tell their non-Christian butts to stop celebrating Christmas because it's Christian. See how it goes. Don't worry, they won't laugh, they'll just resume their Christmas celebrations.

I think that western countries should alter Christmas so that it is no longer a Christian-related holiday, and then everyone can celebrate it!

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1. Wut

2. Then it's not Christmas. I think we should alter the American Flag so that it's bright orange, has a giant picture of Aya Shameimaru on it, and is triangular...

But then it wouldn't be the American flag.

We should call it International Presents Day or Winter Festival.

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Or Kwanzaa! Or Chanukkah!

Umm... Wait...

Why are you butchering a Christian holiday, rather than removing it all together?

I want to celebrate Yom Kippur, but I don't want any of that annoying Jewish stuff. I just want the good part of it, and they can worry about whatever faithy things they want.

(Wut?)

After all, I think that barely anyone really cares that Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ.

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How many Christians are there in the world? Answer me that, please.

All we care about is the presents and parties.

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Blood pressure spiking. Will not touch.

That is the true spirit of Christmas and as long as that remains then Christmas will still be good.

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I mad. I very mad.

The "true spirit of Christmas" is mostly a myth. Christmas is a time of celebration of the birth of Christ. If it's not, it's not Christmas.

In fact, Christmas is not even a Christian holiday: it was originally a Pagan holiday called Yuletide but the Christians stole it!

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Alert the Illuminati of your uncovered conspiracy.

Everyone knows, and I'm sick of this being "proof" against us.

Of course Christians can still have a day to celebrate the birth of Christ but it should be a lower-key event.

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Look up the Roman persecution. Do you think early Christians ran around in red hats celebrating the birth of Christ?

Christmas, and most of Christianity, was low-key at first. Why is it so popular now?

Because it's been embraced by most of the world, before all the "Ban religion and everything" people came around.

I'm fine with Atheism, Agnosticism, and other religions.

But I'm not going to go torch a mosque simply because I think that they're offensive.

Oh, look, that statement can be considered offensive, because it's a Catholic insulting a Muslim.

If someone said we should, say, prevent Muslims from building a mosque, there would be public outcry (Owait).

So... why are Christians such an unprotected target? Why are we mocked, hated, criticized, and in every way disliked, when the Jews and the Muslims aren't?

Is it because we're the horrible religion, because of the Spanish Inquisition?
If so, I suggest you read about the Bataan Death March, so you can start hating Japan unconditionally.

Is it because we're obnoxious?
In that case... Well, I'm not even going to say anything here. It's too obvious.

Is it because we're the standard everyone wants to rebel against?
Bingo. 60s and 70s, I hate every year of you.


EDIT: Double Straiku!

Jolene said:

I think it's mostly just America that is religious. In European countries hardly anyone is religious and a lot of the people who are religious are not serious about their religion.

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America is religious? Or, to clarify, America is Christian?

Since when? Well, since what time period after the 1960s?


And Europe...

It's religious. Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. But still religious. Don't let the loud minority of anti-religious Atheists (I'm not saying that all Atheists are anti-religious, but some Atheists are more like Anti-theists) make you think that they're the majority of Europeans.

I think you broke that up in so many parts that your point got lost somewhere =/

Simple:

1. Christianity isn't some whacko cult. If anyone believes it is, they need to move forward another 1700 years.

2. If you take the Christ out of Christmas... Well, ironically, you get mas(s). But more seriously, it's not Christmas anymore. Changing it entirely to a random "Winter Fest" kinda feels like you're having a winter holiday for the sake of having a winter holiday. Or spiting Christians. Either way.

3. If it got lost, meh. If you can't grasp my position from that post, then... yeah.

Shanghai Alice said:

Alert the Illuminati of your uncovered conspiracy.

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Careful what you wish for.......

<_<
>_>
<_<

Shanghai Alice said:

Simple:
1. Christianity isn't some whacko cult. If anyone believes it is, they need to move forward another 1700 years.

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That's funny, because all of the hardcore Christians I've met are quick to call any other religion a cult, even if that "cult" believes in one God and is driven by the same morals as Christians, but no, those religions must be cults because they don't believe in Jeebus and or don't worship him.

Hell, if anything Christianity is a cult, as kids are forced to follow those beliefs as a kid, and can't really leave that lifestyle until they are old enough to move out. That really seems to be the definition of a cult to me, basically a religion that not only recruits members, but forces them to continue being a part of it at an early age.

But enough of this, I don't even know why I am arguing, as you will probably pick apart what I said and then claim you "owned" me. >_<

look at Halloween: society didn't get together one day and legislate that the pagan roots of this holiday would be neglected, society gradually led it to what it is today. hardly anyone sees it as a Pagan holiday, and those who do usually participate in different kinds of celebration.

in a christian society we can't ignore let alone completely remove the christian background of christmas, and trying to would make a lot of people angry. besides, just because christmas is a part of a certain religion's history doesn't make it exclusive to people of that religion. in any case, it's evolved in a way that's causing it to slowly segregate from its christian roots as it is, and i think we should just let it be. i don't think 'taking the "christ" out of "christmas"' will do anything positive for culture, except anger the christian masses.

That's funny, because all of the hardcore Christians I've met are quick to call any other religion a cult, even if that "cult" believes in one God and is driven by the same morals as Christians, but no, those religions must be cults because they don't believe in Jeebus and or don't worship him.

Hell, if anything Christianity is a cult, as kids are forced to follow those beliefs as a kid, and can't really leave that lifestyle until they are old enough to move out. That really seems to be the definition of a cult to me, basically a religion that not only recruits members, but forces them to continue being a part of it at an early age.

But enough of this, I don't even know why I am arguing, as you will probably pick apart what I said and then claim you "owned" me. >_<

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if you ruin this newfound freedom of discussion in OC so help me

poopnoodle said:

if you ruin this newfound freedom of discussion in OC so help me

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I'm sorry, it's just what he said about cults reminded me of something, and I went off in a small rant.

Even if he or someone else replies to it, I'll just ignore it.

SIN1488 said:

hardcore Christians

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Okay, ignoring the fact that you basically claimed all children should be totally free to choose their religion from birth (I'm going to create the Cult of the Lollipop. It'll work), these two words are all I need.

Christianity does have its cults. We have way too many offshoot churches of offshoot churches, and some of them are waaaaaaay too fanatical. When you say "hardcore Christians" what do you mean?

It's like saying "I know some hardcore Conservatives."

Ones man hardcore Conservative is another man's babbling idiot.

Personally, I'm a Roman Catholic, you know the people with that Pope guy and all.

I'm not criticizing Protestants. My relatives are Protestant, and I'm cool with a lot of them.

However, we have some craaaaaaaazy sects.

This is just going to devolve into a religious debate, and personally I don't debate religion, because it tends to bring out the stupid in people.

However I will offer my take on Christmas:
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that because Christmas (which was originally a Pagan, then adapted to Christian holiday) is becoming increasingly popular among non-Christians, that all those who celebrate it because of it's religious sentiments or history should just up and GTFO? Sorry, but that just sounds rude and arrogant. Non-believers are fine to celebrate it in my opinion, popular culture has morphed christmas into a much more secular holiday yet still retains the Christian morals around it, fellowship/good cheer/etc., and that's fine. What's not fine is you saying that non-Christians are better and deserve to have all aspects of Christianity removed from Christmas just because it's become popular amongst non-Christians.

Jolene said:

I think it's mostly just America that is religious. In European countries hardly anyone is religious and a lot of the people who are religious are not serious about their religion.

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Where are you getting this stat? Or you just pulling it out of your ass? Cause last I checked, Europe is still fairly heavily religious, maybe not as much as America, but religious none less.

Shanghai Alice said:

Personally, I'm a Roman Catholic, you know the people with that Pope guy and all.

I'm not criticizing Protestants. My relatives are Protestant, and I'm cool with a lot of them.

However, we have some craaaaaaaazy sects.

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I agree also, you'll find crazies on both sides of the Christian spectrum. Ever seen/heard of the Calvinists, those are some crazy hardcore Protestants, similar to how there are super crazy Catholics. Christianity is just that diverse.

Personally, I'm Lutheran, and damn proud of it.