A Portion of Obamacare Has Been Repealed By Congress!!!

Having the option to live violates civil liberties? Do explain.

Landorus said:

Having the option to live violates civil liberties? Do explain.

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Now you're either trying to confuse me, or are putting words in my mouth. The individual mandate is not an option, it is forced. There is no option given, you must buy your own health care, or suffer the consequences.

This violates civil liberties because the government is intervening in your private economic choices by forcing you to purchase a private service in the private market.

Is that mandate requiring people to sign up to Obamacare by 2014 or get fined big time still in there? Because that mandate is the major reason I hate this stupid bill.

So, is that the only reason you're against health care?

Would you support universal health care if a proposed method of paying for it proved successful? Our country does not do as much with our taxes as other countries that have things such as universal health care. It all depends on how the country uses the tax money.

If there was a way of allocating resources where we could have a universal health care system that would not put more economic stress on us, would you support that?

But, I agree. Forcing people to have it is not right. If they're stupid and they want to have no health insurance (or if they have another means of getting it, in which case they're not stupid) they can bask in their own stupidity.

The morons we got running this country blow away money in pet projects then in health care. We'll never see the day when this country has universal heath care without the economic stress.

Then I guess you can call me stupid for not having any because I still have no job and can't get any.

Landorus said:

So, is that the only reason you're against health care?

Would you support universal health care if a proposed method of paying for it proved successful? Our country does not do as much with our taxes as other countries that have things such as universal health care. It all depends on how the country uses the tax money.

If there was a way of allocating resources where we could have a universal health care system that would not put more economic stress on us, would you support that?

But, I agree. Forcing people to have it is not right. If they're stupid and they want to have no health insurance (or if they have another means of getting it, in which case they're not stupid) they can bask in their own stupidity.

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If no new taxes were created, perhaps on the state and local levels.

Went said:

And what's so wrong with paying higher taxes if that means everybody has free healthcare? The companies will get the same money from the government anyway, and there will be less abuse.

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Exactly.

Again, people are upset because they want the ~right~ to decline healthcare insurance. You shouldn't have that right for the same reason you can't decline auto insurance. It's a necessity.

Our health system has been broken for YEARS. Yes we have ~great care~ but the reason our number is so low on the world scale is because people do not have access to it unless they have money or swallow large amounts of debt to get proper care.

EVERYONE must be in. Yes people are going to kick and scream and whine and moan but without the individual mandate, there is absolutely no chance for healthcare reform. Again. If everyone is in, they can't reject people. They can't charge sick people more just for being sick. They can't decline people just for being sick. They have to take EVERYONE.

And yes I'm aware some people are healthy healthy and never use a doctor and that some people are opposed to doctors etc but I do not believe that should give you a free pass. I have friends in Europe and Australia that rarely go to the doctor but still carrying insurance/pay healthcare taxes.

Yes yes it's no fun to have to pay for things like this but it's just something we have to do. :| Do you really not see that?

So did the individual mandate actually impose the part where they can't turn down people with pre-existing conditions and such? I was under the impression that was a separate part.

Because if it is, then I agree, we do need that, individual mandate or no.

Taxes aren't bad. They pay for a lot of good stuff. And if I have to pay taxes for health care I would gladly do it.

lx_theo said:

So did the individual mandate actually impose the part where they can't turn down people with pre-existing conditions and such? I was under the impression that was a separate part.

Because if it is, then I agree, we do need that, individual mandate or no.

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They are connected.

Without the mandate, people with preexisting conditions as of 2014 [assuming the law stays in place until then] will, theoretically, be able to get insurance. However, without the mandate in place they can still charge outrageous amounts [1800 + a month for good coverage, 500+ for crap coverage] for people with pre existing conditions. Think the kid on the playground who lets you rent his toy but it costs you your whole allowance and you can only play with it for a few minutes.

With the mandate in place, there will be more people with pre-existing conditions because, and let's be frank with this, with our obesity problem alone we're going to have LOTS of people joining up with pre-existing conditions. The majority of America is not going to pay 1800 a month. They're going to demand a price cut. Theoretically, this could lead to either a voluntary price decline or a group like congress will step in and force a decline through (legal) market regulation. I.E. a law that caps the amount a company can charge per month etc etc etc.

You see why it's necessary?

Mika said:

Exactly.

Again, people are upset because they want the ~right~ to decline healthcare insurance. You shouldn't have that right for the same reason you can't decline auto insurance. It's a necessity.

Our health system has been broken for YEARS. Yes we have ~great care~ but the reason our number is so low on the world scale is because people do not have access to it unless they have money or swallow large amounts of debt to get proper care.

EVERYONE must be in. Yes people are going to kick and scream and whine and moan but without the individual mandate, there is absolutely no chance for healthcare reform. Again. If everyone is in, they can't reject people. They can't charge sick people more just for being sick. They can't decline people just for being sick. They have to take EVERYONE.

And yes I'm aware some people are healthy healthy and never use a doctor and that some people are opposed to doctors etc but I do not believe that should give you a free pass. I have friends in Europe and Australia that rarely go to the doctor but still carrying insurance/pay healthcare taxes.

Yes yes it's no fun to have to pay for things like this but it's just something we have to do. :| Do you really not see that?

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Your auto insurance mandate argument ignores the federal structure of the United States government. There is no federal auto insurance mandate. These are all state or local level laws. These kinds of laws are unconstitutional in a few ways, including under the 10th Amendment. Since regulating motor vehicles and their operations fall under the domain of the states, the federal government has no authority here. Furthermore, one cannot ever avoid the health insurance mandate like someone can avoid an auto insurance mandate. No one forces people to drive. People are free to choose to walk, bike, use public transportation, carpool, etc. Avoiding the health insurance mandate would require someone to relinquish their United States citizenship.

This portion isn't directed at you, but at the "forum" in general:
The individual health insurance mandate is not authorized by Congress' taxation authority because it is not a tax. Tax revenue is paid by taxpayers directly to the government, while premiums paid due to the mandate will go directly to private entities (i.e. insurance companies).

FreakyLocz14 said:

Your auto insurance mandate argument ignores the federal structure of the United States government. There is no federal auto insurance mandate. These are all state or local level laws.

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"In 47 states, drivers are required, at minimum, to carry a compulsory auto liability policy."

"The purpose of compulsory auto insurance policies is to protect the public from the high costs of injuries and property damage resulting from vehicular accidents"
The purpose of compulsory health insurance (Or you know, a single payer plan) is to protect the public from the high cost of hospitalizations and financial damage resulting from illness and injury.

FreakyLocz14 said:

These kinds of laws are unconstitutional in a few ways, including under the 10th Amendment.

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"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

not delegated NOR prohibited. Where's the prohibition on taking caring of the citizens? I don't see it in my constitution. :3

FreakyLocz14 said:

Since regulating motor vehicles and their operations fall under the domain of the states, the federal government has no authority here.

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Only because it doesn't need to. The states took the initiative.

FreakyLocz14 said:

Furthermore, one cannot ever avoid the health insurance mandate like someone can avoid an auto insurance mandate. No one forces people to drive. People are free to choose to walk, bike, use public transportation, carpool, etc.

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Yes and people can chose to not go to a doctor, eat poorly and retain copious amounts of body fat. The difference? Some people never drive a car in their lifetime. Everyone ends up at a doctor's office at least once.

Sometimes it's minor but othertimes it's serious. It's the serious times that raise costs because nobody can afford it out of pocket. NOBODY can.

FreakyLocz14 said:

Avoiding the health insurance mandate would require someone to relinquish their United States citizenship.

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Freaky where'd you get that? It's a fine, not a citizenship revokement. Don't over dramatize it.

FreakyLocz14 said:

This portion isn't directed at you, but at the "forum" in general:

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;3

FreakyLocz14 said:

Tax revenue is paid by taxpayers directly to the government, while premiums paid due to the mandate will go directly to private entities (i.e. insurance companies).

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Funny, Isn't this precisely what the Republicans wanted to do to Medicare/Medicaid earlier this week? :3 Turn over Medicare and Medicaid money so that it would go directly to those private entities?

Mika said:

"In 47 states, drivers are required, at minimum, to carry a compulsory auto liability policy."

"The purpose of compulsory auto insurance policies is to protect the public from the high costs of injuries and property damage resulting from vehicular accidents"

https://www.carinsurancelist.com/why-is-car-insurance-mandatory.htm#ixzz1J5EygBvf
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The purpose of compulsory health insurance (Or you know, a single payer plan) is to protect the public from the high cost of hospitalizations and financial damage resulting from illness and injury.


"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

not delegated NOR prohibited. Where's the prohibition on taking caring of the citizens? I don't see it in my constitution. :3



Only because it doesn't need to. The states took the initiative.



Yes and people can chose to not go to a doctor, eat poorly and retain copious amounts of body fat. The difference? Some people never drive a car in their lifetime. Everyone ends up at a doctor's office at least once.

Sometimes it's minor but othertimes it's serious. It's the serious times that raise costs because nobody can afford it out of pocket. NOBODY can.



Freaky where'd you get that? It's a fine, not a citizenship revokement. Don't over dramatize it.



;3



Funny, Isn't this precisely what the Republicans wanted to do to Medicare/Medicaid earlier this week? :3 Turn over Medicare and Medicaid money so that it would go directly to those private entities?

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1) "In 47 states, drivers are required, at minimum, to carry a compulsory auto liability policy."

Thank you for proving my point that insurance mandates, be it for auto insurance or health insurance, are the job of the several states and not the federal government. I don't see anything mentioning the federal government, but 47 states.

2) "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I don't know if you're not understanding that passage or are intentionally misquoting it. Read it again carefully and you will discover that is says unless the power is delegated to the federal government by the Constitution, that power is reserved for the states unless the Constitution prohibits it for the states. The Constitution doesn't have to prohibit this for the federal government, rather, is has to specifically delegate that power to the feds or the states get that power.

3) People under the jurisdiction of the United States have a right to privacy. This includes the right to make decisions that will impact their health without government intrusion.

4) "Freaky where'd you get that? It's a fine, not a citizenship revokement. Don't over dramatize it. "

That's like saying "Freaky, go ahead and do 85 in a 55 mile-per-hour zone, the punishment is only a fine. Don't over dramatize it." People will be required to purchase private health insurance or suffer the consequences. It will be a condition of citizenship.

5) "Funny, Isn't this precisely what the Republicans wanted to do to Medicare/Medicaid earlier this week? :3 Turn over Medicare and Medicaid money so that it would go directly to those private entities?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

FreakyLocz14 said:

4) "Freaky where'd you get that? It's a fine, not a citizenship revokement. Don't over dramatize it. "

That's like saying "Freaky, go ahead and do 85 in a 55 mile-per-hour zone, the punishment is only a fine. Don't over dramatize it." People will be required to purchase private health insurance or suffer the consequences. It will be a condition of citizenship.

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Just what are you smoking? If people saw that added, there's going to be a major riot. Like Mika said, stop your over dramatization about this!

Mario The World Champion said:

Just what are you smoking? If people saw that added, there's going to be a major riot. Like Mika said, stop your over dramatization about this!

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It's already in the law. If you don't buy health insurance, you are punished with a fine.

But you're saying that if you don't buy this health insurance, you're not a citizen of this country. That's what you're saying.

Mario The World Champion said:

But you're saying that if you don't buy this health insurance, you're not a citizen of this country. That's what you're saying.

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No. I'm saying that buying health care is a condition of being a citizen. If you don't qualify for Medicaid or Medicare, you have to buy your own plan. If you don't buy it, you are fined as punishment. The only way to avoid this is to leave the United States.

FreakyLocz14 said:

No. I'm saying that buying health care is a condition of being a citizen. If you don't qualify for Medicaid or Medicare, you have to buy your own plan. If you don't buy it, you are fined as punishment. The only way to avoid this is to leave the United States.

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So you were over dramatizing it.

FreakyLocz14 said:

No. I'm saying that buying health care is a condition of being a citizen.

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Let's see. https://www.visaus.com/citizen.html says that to become a US citzen you have to....

[SIZE=-1] 1. Are at least 18 years old and a lawful permanent resident ("green card" holder);[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 2. Have resided continuously in the United States, having been lawfully admitted for permanent residence, for five years immediately preceding the date you filed your application for naturalization, or[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 3. Have, after having been removed from conditional permanent resident status, based upon your marriage to a U.S. citizen, having resided in the United States for one year after the date the condition was removed;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 4. Have resided continuously in the United States at all times after your application to the time and date of your admission for citizenship;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 5. Have, during all periods of time referred to above, been and still are a person of good moral character;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 6. Have no outstanding deportation or removal order and no pending deportation or removal proceeding;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 7. Have the ability to read, write, speak, and understand simple words and phrases in English;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 8. Have knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of U.S. history and government;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 9. Are attached to, and can support, the principles of the U.S. Constitution and can swear allegiance to the United States.[/SIZE]

Nope. I don't see anything in there about having to buy Health Insurance. I guess I'm still a citizen! People have to pay fines all the time. It's a CHOICE they make and if they make THE WRONG CHOICE (i.e. not buying healthcare) then they should have to pay a fine.

REGARDLESS. It doesn't revoke their citizenship.

FreakyLocz14 said:

If you don't qualify for Medicaid or Medicare, you have to buy your own plan. If you don't buy it, you are fined as punishment.

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And like I pointed out earlier (Note: When accusing someone of utilizing a red herring, it is common place to explain why you believe it to be so. Simply posting a link to a definition does not suffice the requirement for an explanation) there is a movement to make Medicare / Medicaid owned by insurance companies. This is what Senator Ryan wants. He wants the Medicare/Medicaid funding to go DIRECTLY to health insurance companies instead of to the people who qualify for it.

FreakyLocz14 said:

The only way to avoid this is to leave the United States.

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Again, you're being overly dramatic. There aren't going to be SWAT Teams forcing families into vans in the dead of the night because they don't have health insurance. They're not going to eject those families into the deserts of Mexico or the forests of Canada. They're just going to have those families pay a fine, probably at tax time. Dramatizing things to make your point seem strong isn't a wise idea. Facts work better.