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Old May 1st, 2012 (6:31 AM).
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FrostPheonix FrostPheonix is offline
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    Originally Posted by Barrels View Post
    If mankind couldn't make it through the old laws, what does that mean, exactly? Did all the people who couldn't follow them go to Hell - and then get forgiven and accepted into Heaven later? (Seems only fair, if the whole reason for Jesus' coming was that the old laws were too hard - and they were, right? Stoning children etc.) And if all we have to do to find salvation is accept Jesus - again, forgive me, but that seems a fairly flimsy litmus test for Heavengoers. What's to stop a vile dictator from whole-heartedly accepting Jesus' existence?
    Yeah, I think when Jesus decended into hell for three days (the three days he was dead and carried the sins of mankind upon him), he tried to bring those who would have believed with him back to heaven. And yeah, nothing is there from stopping a vile dictator from accepting Jesus. But....:

    Originally Posted by Barrels View Post
    And if the answer to that is that you can't just accept His existence but have to follow his rules, then what are those rules? Which bits? We're back to my pick-and-choose question, if some parts of the Old Testament still apply and some don't ('there are several books in the old testament that I think still apply to us; Proverbs, Psalms etc.'). Who decides? The Church?
    Yeah, just accepting Jesus existed won't be enough. You need to accept that God is the true God, and from there follow his (Jesus') teachings. If you just believe, you won't achieve salvation. You have to accept him completely and change. As said before, I think that the laws of the Pentateuch, the commandments under which Abraham made the covenant, are the ones by which we are no longer bound. The rest of the Old Testament is a recounting of the history of Israel, prophecies, advice and praise. Its not pick and choose, but those specific laws are no longer in effect because the old covenant has been lifted.

    Originally Posted by Barrels View Post
    Finally... I'm sorry, but I just cannot accept any kind of justification for slavery. A God who lets slavers into heaven isn't a God I could ever worship. (And your argument sort of seems self-defeating - if Israel are going to listen to the laws, surely they'd listen to one that said they weren't allowed to keep slaves? And since in the Old Testament, God takes an active role in battles etcetera, couldn't he have backed a slave uprising? Still fairly confused.)

    This is what's most interesting of all, however. And what I think may provide you with an answer to Bela's argument that Christian morality is arbitrary. If God has his own moral code that shuns slavery, surely that's the definitive morality? (Of course, it'd be nice if he set that down for us in writing, but perhaps that's the Ten Commandments. I dunno, I ain't no scholar.) Thanks, both of you, for providing such interesting food for thought.
    Hmmmmm.... I'll have to think about this... I may ask other christians about this as well, but at the moment I won't answer this. I'll try later on though, when I think I know I can give you a satisfactory answer.