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Gen V: More Controversial Than Gen III

Keiran

[b]Rock Solid[/b]
2,455
Posts
12
Years
Just wait for the next gen to come out and people will find new, pointless things to complain about meanwhile they'll regard BW/2 as a great generation. This has happened for Gen 2..3..and 4. The games have only gotten better with time. Try playing Gen 1 in this day and age; it's terribly boring and very bugged and there is literally nothing to do after beating the E4.
 

coolcatkim22

Team Rocket's Rockin'
892
Posts
15
Years
Now you're contradicting yourself. You want Gen V to be less like Gen I in terms of in-game features yet you want Gen V's story to be more like Gen I?
Kind of. I mean, I still want there to be certain features from Gen 1 in it and the story doesn't have to be exactly like Gen 1's but similar.

Wasn't Gen I's story originally going to be about a trainer saving the world from a villain?
Not exactly. It was more about the main character trying to prove himself to his rival while also trying to fulfill the dreams of Professor Oak.
The villains were more or less just there. The hero wasn't really fighting them because he was trying to save the world, or because he's journey was about fighting evil. It was just something he sort of did partially because Team Rocket kept challenging him, partially because they were in his way and partially because he thought what they were doing was wrong.
Though, you could argue with that and say the hero meant to disband Team Rocket or at least stop Giovanni, and being that he's a silent protagonist I couldn't argue with that but, it's kind of hard to think that he would have that in mind when he has other objectives and he's only ten.

The map is linear for reason, because kids had trouble getting to Snowpoint City.
Yeah I know, that was a stupid reason. Look, I'm not saying that the game should go all over the place but making it linear is just way to simplistic.
In every game there are going to be parts where the players get stuck (except in simple games like pong). It's natural for that happen and your suppose to figure out a way to over come them. It doesn't mean necessarily, that the game is flawed and the game has to become easier.

It's not like the grinding system was broken to begin with as the older system from previous titles were flawed too (being able to curbstomp everything with one Pokemon for example).
I don't know about this. Could you give me an example?

You just answered your own question, Pokemon is suppose to be a casual player's beginner for the RPG genre before moving onto others like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade,
No, no it is not. I don't even know where you got this idea from.

People can choose to make the game challenging by making their own rules.
So? I can do that with anything. I don't buy games so I put restrictions on myself, I buy games so they can challenge me.
 

Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu
9,528
Posts
11
Years
Kind of. I mean, I still want there to be certain features from Gen 1 in it and the story doesn't have to be exactly like Gen 1's but similar.

Then you're just another one of those Kanto purists.

Not exactly. It was more about the main character trying to prove himself to his rival while also trying to fulfill the dreams of Professor Oak.
The villains were more or less just there. The hero wasn't really fighting them because he was trying to save the world, or because he's journey was about fighting evil. It was just something he sort of did partially because Team Rocket kept challenging him, partially because they were in his way and partially because he thought what they were doing was wrong.
Though, you could argue with that and say the hero meant to disband Team Rocket or at least stop Giovanni, and being that he's a silent protagonist I couldn't argue with that but, it's kind of hard to think that he would have that in mind when he has other objectives and he's only ten.

If you read any of Masuda's interviews regarding Gen 1, he said that the story was going to be about a trainer stopping a villain from taking over the world before it was changed into just collecting Pokemon and becoming champion.

Yeah I know, that was a stupid reason. Look, I'm not saying that the game should go all over the place but making it linear is just way to simplistic.
In every game there are going to be parts where the players get stuck (except in simple games like pong). It's natural for that happen and your suppose to figure out a way to over come them. It doesn't mean necessarily, that the game is flawed and the game has to become easier.

But there are parts where it's impossible to get past by yourself through trial and error, resorting you to use a guide to help you. It has happened to me in the past, and it has happened to me today.

I don't know about this. Could you give me an example?

In one of BMGF's weekly polls, it mentioned about Gen I-IV having an old EXP system that was based on the number of EXP the Pokemon gives regardless of what level it is on. Training by beating Pokemon who give out the highest EXP helped result ing overpowering one of your Pokemon. This was later changed in Gen V when it's also based on the level of the Pokemon you're facing, so your Pokemon doesn't gain so many levels. TV Tropes also mentions this on their Game Breaker page for more information.

No, no it is not. I don't even know where you got this idea from.

Nintendo has always been making games that are easy to pick up, fun to play, but hard to master (if you want to go competitive). Casual players tend to be afraid of traditional JRPGs for their complex game mechanics.

So? I can do that with anything. I don't buy games so I put restrictions on myself, I buy games so they can challenge me.

Then you're better off playing NES/arcade games than modern day games.
 

coolcatkim22

Team Rocket's Rockin'
892
Posts
15
Years
Then you're just another one of those Kanto purists.
I don't know what that is.

If you read any of Masuda's interviews regarding Gen 1, he said that the story was going to be about a trainer stopping a villain from taking over the world before it was changed into just collecting Pokemon and becoming champion.
So, what?

But there are parts where it's impossible to get past by yourself through trial and error, resorting you to use a guide to help you. It has happened to me in the past, and it has happened to me today.
Not necessarily. Although guides are helpful so long as the game isn't too convoluted and you pay avid attention you could probably figure it out on your own.
Even so, the point I was trying to make is that no matter how difficult a game is, so long as it isn't broken do not try to fix it by making it simple.

In one of BMGF's weekly polls, it mentioned about Gen I-IV having an old EXP system that was based on the number of EXP the Pokemon gives regardless of what level it is on. Training by beating Pokemon who give out the highest EXP helped result ing overpowering one of your Pokemon. This was later changed in Gen V when it's also based on the level of the Pokemon you're facing, so your Pokemon doesn't gain so many levels. TV Tropes also mentions this on their Game Breaker page for more information.
Well, when I was talking about the grinding system I was more referring to how Audinos are everywhere and you get a Lucky Egg and Exp. Share very early on in the games. Not to mention how there are trainers every where.

Nintendo has always been making games that are easy to pick up, fun to play, but hard to master (if you want to go competitive). Casual players tend to be afraid of traditional JRPGs for their complex game mechanics.
I don't know of many people who pick up Pokemon so they can play other RPGs. Or even players that got into other RPGs because of Pokemon.
I don't know, I just, I don't play other RPGs because I played Pokemon. I play other RPGs if they appeal to my interests and even then I've never been afraid to pick up a new game (unless it was in the horror genre).
That's probably just me. Personally, there's very little chance that I would pick up Fire Emblem or Xenoblade, not because I'm afraid, but because it's nothing I'm interest in. I play Pokemon because I like Pokemon, not because it's a starter RPG but because it's a light hearted adventure in a world with magical creatures that you can befriend and watch grow.

Then you're better off playing NES/arcade games than modern day games.
Wow, way to insult modern games. Basically you're saying that NES and arcade games are the only good games. That's sad, that's really sad.
 

Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu
9,528
Posts
11
Years
I don't know what that is.

Fans who think anything that's not like Gen 1 is crud.


So, what?

So it means the game's story is slowly evolving to what the developers originally planned.

Not necessarily. Although guides are helpful so long as the game isn't too convoluted and you pay avid attention you could probably figure it out on your own.
Even so, the point I was trying to make is that no matter how difficult a game is, so long as it isn't broken do not try to fix it by making it simple.

You have no idea how many people hate Victory Road, as well as Mt. Coronet, because of their frustrating puzzles. The series' primary target are children, and they don't want to place time-consuming puzzles. If you really want the puzzles to stay complex, then they could try to input a super guide like they did with the Zelda games to help younger players.

Well, when I was talking about the grinding system I was more referring to how Audinos are everywhere and you get a Lucky Egg and Exp. Share very early on in the games. Not to mention how there are trainers every where.

Then don't face Audinos; they're really easy to avoid.

Wow, way to insult modern games. Basically you're saying that NES and arcade games are the only good games. That's sad, that's really sad.

When did I ever said that? You said you wanted games to challenge you, and I only said you should play NES/arcade games, because modern games aren't as difficult as those games. Regardless of that, Iceman3317 pretty much nailed why you find these Pokemon games easy, because you've been playing Pokemon for years. Have you ever considered reading any of these comment on this thread?
 

coolcatkim22

Team Rocket's Rockin'
892
Posts
15
Years
Fans who think anything that's not like Gen 1 is crud.
I don't think any thing that is not Gen 1 is crud, I think anything that is misplaced in the series or just stupid on it's own merits is crud.

So it means the game's story is slowly evolving to what the developers originally planned.
And I ask again, so what?

You have no idea how many people hate Victory Road, as well as Mt. Coronet, because of their frustrating puzzles. The series' primary target are children, and they don't want to place time-consuming puzzles. If you really want the puzzles to stay complex, then they could try to input a super guide like they did with the Zelda games to help younger players.
If they don't want to figure out puzzles then they shouldn't play an RPGs. Look half the fun of RPGs are about figuring stuff out. Figuring out battle strategies, figuring out where to go next and having the patient to take the time to try and figure it out.
If the kids don't want to waste time then they can go play another game. And yes, they can go ask for help but even so, this a flaw in the games that needs to be wipe.
Even so, you are missing my point. My point that the games shouldn't go in the opposite direction. They shouldn't become over simplistic just to appeal to kids who don't want to try. Games far harder then Pokemon have been created and the kids who played those games had the patients to put up with it.

Then don't face Audinos; they're really easy to avoid.
That's not the point. This is going in circles. Okay, I'll try to explain this again.

Say you are playing Super Mario Brothers and you really want to beat it, but you're having trouble. Now, you don't want to use the level skipping warp pipes because you want to beat this on you're own merit but then you find out all you're friends have beaten the game by using the pipes.

So, why exactly at this point should you not use the pipes any more? What will you truly accomplished by not using the pipes? You'll have beaten the game but all friends already did that. Well, you could say you beat it with out using the pipes but what kind of accomplishment is that? Sure I beat a more challenging game of Super Mario Brothers but it was only more difficult because I made the number of opportunities to lose greater.

Let's step back from SMB for a second now. The warp pipe is not a great example because even if you use the pipes you still have a little bit to go before you win the game and the other levels are still very challenging.
Here's the thing though, the Audinos are not the only thing that makes the game easy, nor is the items you get, the map linear, the availability of Trainers to fight, the lack of HMs you need, the help guide, or anything else in the game to make it easier, it's all of them put together. The game constantly gives you the means to beat it easily, and even is built to be easy.
Also, don't tell me again I can make it more difficult for myself I can make any difficult for my self. I don't need a game to do that I can just do that by making every task in my life more difficult to accomplish then necessary. What I need games for is to challenge me, not by making things complicated, but by being clever, by challenging my mind with things I need to think about.

When did I ever said that? You said you wanted games to challenge you, and I only said you should play NES/arcade games, because modern games aren't as difficult as those games. Regardless of that, Iceman3317 pretty much nailed why you find these Pokemon games easy, because you've been playing Pokemon for years. Have you ever considered reading any of these comment on this thread?
Exactly, and difficulty dictates how good a game is. I'm not saying there that all challenging games are necessarily good but all good games have to be challenging. If your saying that none of the modern games are challenging then how can any of them be good.

I read a few but then some started stating that my opinion, and every else who shares my opinion, probably exists for the most rudimentary of reasons. Never just once pondering or asking if the reason maybe is because Gen 5 is not very good.
 

Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu
9,528
Posts
11
Years
I don't think any thing that is not Gen 1 is crud, I think anything that is misplaced in the series or just stupid on it's own merits is crud.

But then you'll be complaining how the games are the same old same old without these tweaks.

And I ask again, so what?

So whether you like it or not, the series is evolving.

If they don't want to figure out puzzles then they shouldn't play an RPGs. Look half the fun of RPGs are about figuring stuff out. Figuring out battle strategies, figuring out where to go next and having the patient to take the time to try and figure it out.
If the kids don't want to waste time then they can go play another game. And yes, they can go ask for help but even so, this a flaw in the games that needs to be wipe.
Even so, you are missing my point. My point that the games shouldn't go in the opposite direction. They shouldn't become over simplistic just to appeal to kids who don't want to try. Games far harder then Pokemon have been created and the kids who played those games had the patients to put up with it.

There's a reason why Pokemon is rated E rather than E 10+, it's because of the need for simple puzzles rather than the rather complex puzzles.

That's not the point. This is going in circles. Okay, I'll try to explain this again.

Say you are playing Super Mario Brothers and you really want to beat it, but you're having trouble. Now, you don't want to use the level skipping warp pipes because you want to beat this on you're own merit but then you find out all you're friends have beaten the game by using the pipes.

So, why exactly at this point should you not use the pipes any more? What will you truly accomplished by not using the pipes? You'll have beaten the game but all friends already did that. Well, you could say you beat it with out using the pipes but what kind of accomplishment is that? Sure I beat a more challenging game of Super Mario Brothers but it was only more difficult because I made the number of opportunities to lose greater.

It's actually a great accomplishment if you ask me. Beating SMB without pipes is the same challenge as beating Contra without using the Konami Code, which the AVGN did as a kid.

Let's step back from SMB for a second now. The warp pipe is not a great example because even if you use the pipes you still have a little bit to go before you win the game and the other levels are still very challenging.
Here's the thing though, the Audinos are not the only thing that makes the game easy, nor is the items you get, the map linear, the availability of Trainers to fight, the lack of HMs you need, the help guide, or anything else in the game to make it easier, it's all of them put together. The game constantly gives you the means to beat it easily, and even is built to be easy.
Also, don't tell me again I can make it more difficult for myself I can make any difficult for my self. I don't need a game to do that I can just do that by making every task in my life more difficult to accomplish then necessary. What I need games for is to challenge me, not by making things complicated, but by being clever, by challenging my mind with things I need to think about.

The reason why Gen 1 was challenging is because of its game breaking mechanics (i.e. Psychic types), and the maps for the first two gens had you go to places you weren't suppose to go yet in terms of the Gym order. The Gen V provides an example of what Gen 1 would've been if it wasn't so broken. You can say the complete linearity was for the more competitive players who want to develop their teams quicker after completing the storyline, which means they're slowly dominating the Pokemon fanbase.

Exactly, and difficulty dictates how good a game is. I'm not saying there that all challenging games are necessarily good but all good games have to be challenging. If your saying that none of the modern games are challenging then how can any of them be good.

Games can still be good without being challenging. Just look at Kirby for example. We really don't want the difficulty for modern games to be like that of Battletoads or Ninja Gaiden. Hardcore gamers shouldn't be all self-entitled about wanting today's games to be as difficult as the games from the 80's and early 90's.

I read a few but then some started stating that my opinion, and every else who shares my opinion, probably exists for the most rudimentary of reasons. Never just once pondering or asking if the reason maybe is because Gen 5 is not very good.

Maybe because they're true? You guys really aren't giving the series any favors other than trying to devolve them after what they've come so far to improving the game experience for the past 15 years.
 

coolcatkim22

Team Rocket's Rockin'
892
Posts
15
Years
But then you'll be complaining how the games are the same old same old without these tweaks.
Not if the game replace the tweaks with other tweaks that are much better.

So whether you like it or not, the series is evolving.
It's evolving poorly.

There's a reason why Pokemon is rated E rather than E 10+, it's because of the need for simple puzzles rather than the rather complex puzzles.
The ESRB is a rating system used to inform the buyer of any sensitive content within the game. It is meant to tell whether the game has any violence, swearing, sexual content or anything other wise that might be inappropriate for a child. It is not a rating for the difficulty of the game.

The reason why Gen 1 was challenging is because of its game breaking mechanics (i.e. Psychic types), and the maps for the first two gens had you go to places you weren't suppose to go yet in terms of the Gym order. The Gen V provides an example of what Gen 1 would've been if it wasn't so broken. You can say the complete linearity was for the more competitive players who want to develop their teams quicker after completing the storyline, which means they're slowly dominating the Pokemon fanbase.
Gen 1 was challenging for me because it didn't hold my hand. It didn't have a tutorial function, it didn't give me a infinite bag, it didn't have pointless bridges, and it didn't have freakin' critical captures.

Look, you keep saying how Gen 1 was easy cause it was broken. And yes that's probably true, but it was not intentional. It's easy because people were stupid when programming the thing, not that they were trying to make it easy for us. I didn't have an easy time playing the game, why, because I didn't know that psychic type was broken. And why didn't I know, because if they had meant for it to be they would have told me so instead of kept hammering that Ghost types were super effective against Psychic types.

So, yeah that game is broken but Gen 5 isn't so it has no excuse. It purposely makes the game easier for you and that is what the problem is It has no respect for my or anyone else's intelligence. It treats its players like idiots. I know you could say "it's for children" but children are not this stupid and it's an insult to kids everywhere to say that they are.

Also, I have no idea what this sentence means "the maps for the first two gens had you go to places you weren't suppose to go yet in terms of the Gym order." Could you please explain?

Also also, "the complete linearity was for the more competitive players who want to develop their teams quicker after completing the storyline".
Thank you! That is my second problem with the linearity of the games. Appealing to the competitive players.

Games can still be good without being challenging. Just look at Kirby for example. We really don't want the difficulty for modern games to be like that of Battletoads or Ninja Gaiden. Hardcore gamers shouldn't be all self-entitled about wanting today's games to be as difficult as the games from the 80's and early 90's.
I don't want games to be as difficult as before because some were too difficult. But I think games should have some difficulty in them otherwise what's the point?
I don't know about Kirby since I've never played one but I assume that even those games have some difficulty in them. A game without difficulty to me is nothing but busy work. And though, I may find that to be fun and surely other people do too, I would never pay forty dollars for a game like that. Especially when there is a good deal of games like that for free.

Maybe because they're true? You guys really aren't giving the series any favors other than trying to devolve them after what they've come so far to improving the game experience for the past 15 years.
What have they improved in this series? All they've done is simplified certain things, complicated other things and try to do things that the series can not do well at this point in time. It has no originality, it's story is stupid, the characters are poorly drawn, the game is often a pixelated nightmare and it ignores the players who care about the journey for players who don't.
 

Ammako

I hate you. You know who you are.
534
Posts
16
Years
  • Seen Feb 1, 2018
gallery_215916_432_365071.gif


People make this kind of hate towards every new generation just because it's not their favourite Gen I/II/III.
Nothing new here.
 
15
Posts
11
Years
I thought Black/White was a much better improvement over its predecessor than Ruby/Sapphire were. The 5th generation Pokemon were (mostly) original, not like how alot of the 3rd generation Pokemon were just copies of the 1st generation ones.
 

Itstoppedatumbreon

Destroying Zubats since 1996
266
Posts
13
Years
Honeslty, having played all previous generations, i was looking forward to it.
It was my least favourite of the pokemon games, i think it changed too much. I think the game was too story driven. I like the prvious games, where its just "get the badges a bit of team rocket, done" I liked having team Aqua and the kyogre stuff, but i felt that team plasma just did too much in this game. Also, the new pokemon were mostly worse than previous ons IMO. Some, like that one made of rubbish (Muk 2) and Woobat (zubat 2) where just copies of others. When the starter final evolutions were revealed, i remember people thinking they were fake, as they looked like other pokemon already in the games (Dialga,Milotic and i beleive Rhyperior?)
The futuristic, more technological cities i did not like as much. I dont know why. And good as that one with the skyscrapers looked, there want nearly enough actually there to make it needed.

By no means a bad game, but not a great game, like the previous 4 gens
 
568
Posts
11
Years
I have played pretty much every 'main' Pokémon game in the series.
I feel that BW was a bad move, but that is just because I have played the entire series before. Just like how every complained at RSE, it is mainly because it is a new area, with new pokémon and they weren't brought into the series through it. They potentially feel that it is alien and doesn't belong in the series at all.
However if we take the point of view from someone who has never played a Pokémon game before and the first game they play is BW or BW2 they will probably love it. Just how we all loved our first Pokémon game. If someone who's first game was BW or BW2 went and played a gen 1 game without knowing what it was, they would probably think that the game was stupid and wouldn't respect it for what it is.
The fact is, we have all played the other games and we feel that we don't want the series how we remember it to be interfered with.

I remember when Diamond and Pearl were released, everyone around me thought that it was brilliant because it added in many cool things to the series. Also the idea of a 'God' Pokémon was amazing and everyone wanted one!
Then when BW was announced, I felt like Pokémon had just blanked everything it had previously used. I mean, they released God, then they released more. That idea just messed with me a lot.
Something about Gen V just seems different as well. In all of the other generations, when the message popped up saying that trainer xxxxx was about to send out xxxxx I would know what it was and how to counter it. But in gen V, no such thing can happen for me. The names just don't stick with me as well as I'd hoped.

Also the way that the games are chronologically structured makes this BW and BW2 sit uneasy with me.
The games chronologically go:
Gen I/III
Gen II/IV
Gen V
There are a few year gaps that you one could easily search for on the internet.
After the events and findings in DPP, it seems odd that there would be more than God. I think the reason I don't enjoy gen 5 as much as the others is that, in my head, I figured that the games' story would not progress chronologically.

One thing that people may be forgetting as well, is that Pokémon builds its games for the newer generation of people. It assumes that all of the people who had played gen 1 would not play gen 5. Therefore they cater towards the younger gamers, the people who Pokémon was intended for. Going back to my earlier point, if someone were to play a gen 5 game as their first game then they would love it. Gamefreak develop games for the younger demographic. So, for us so-called 'veterans' the games aren't tailored towards us any more and it is expected that we won't enjoy it. However, with so many more people being born and coming of 'Pokémon Playing Age', this causes Gamefreak to essentially 'forget' about the 'hardcore' Pokémon fans, if a game releases different (I.E Black and White) but still sells well, then Gamefreak will think nothing of it and continue as they have been.
I am not saying that we should stop buying Pokémon games, because that idea is just preposterous. We should just make do with what we have and enjoy it.

Black and White, and Black 2 and White 2, weren't bad games. People just had their visions fogged and thought of them as a bad game. I still play Pokémon White, and enjoy it to an extent, I have not picked up a copy of Black 2 or White 2 so I can't say how different they are. Still, it is probably also a good game. Just not the game we were all hoping/expecting.
 

Cerberus87

Mega Houndoom, baby!
1,639
Posts
11
Years
I thought Black/White was a much better improvement over its predecessor than Ruby/Sapphire were. The 5th generation Pokemon were (mostly) original, not like how alot of the 3rd generation Pokemon were just copies of the 1st generation ones.

Thank you for sparing me the trouble of posting this and upsetting all the current 3rd gen fans who suddenly stepped out of their holes due to the possibility of a remake. ;)

I think the number one reason 3rd gen was so hated, along with everything else that usually comes up (different design philosophy, boring world with water routes, lack of originality), is the fact you couldn't transfer your Pokémon from GSC into it. It would've been difficult to do so, because the systems are so different, but Gamefreak could've at least tried something. There are many differences between GBA and DS Pokémon data as well, yet you can transfer Pokémon to DPPt/HGSS freely. I think it wasn't thought of in the past because backwards compatibility wasn't such a big thing back then. If you don't count the Game Boy Color, no Nintendo console up to the Gamecube is compatible with their predecessors. The first console to have backwards compatibility with its predecessor was the competitor PS2.

I could answer all the points in the first post with a proper argument, but seriously, to the people complaining about the nurses in the BW routes... The old games also had them.

Audino is there so that it's less annoying to bring a freshly caught Pokémon to the level of your party. It's quite fun to hunt them too.

The strong trainers in BW actually have pretty good Pokémon. The E4 movesets, for example, are much improved compared to the old games.

And Arceus isn't "God". It's the "Creation" Pokémon. All the ubers like Lugia, Ho-Oh, Groudon, etc., are "gods" in that respect, or worshipped as gods.
 

masaru3

Chespin, I choose you!
216
Posts
13
Years
This is actually one of my favorite Generations. Unova is great and all the improvements were great. Don't like the Musicals much, but I liked pretty much everything else.
The fact that the TMs are reusable is one of the best things they did.
 
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