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Old February 3rd, 2018 (7:13 PM).
Aliencommander1245 Aliencommander1245 is offline
     
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
    I actually looked into your previous comments a bit further later on and found multiple studies which supported the idea that fetuses can feel pain at 20 weeks, such as this compilation created by the Charlotte Lozier Institute - https://lozierinstitute.org/fact-sheet-science-of-fetal-pain/.
    I don't really know why you put emphasis on the name of the Charlotte Lozier Institute since it's an anti-abortion organisation and not at all a peer reviewed science journal.

    Those aren't even all studies, and a lot of what's said on that page either isn't fully true, being misinterpreted, or something discredited. I'd rather just link this because it debunks most of that stuff better and quicker than i could, but a particularly noticeable example is if you read the source for the first dot point.

    Despite claiming "babies delivered as young as 20 weeks post-fertilization (22 weeks gestation) can survive, and active intervention for treatment greatly improves their survival." the study doesn't actually state that- merely that the amount of active intervention care performed at different hospitals may account for (some) of the differences in survival rates between them. There is a fairly important distinction because the study itself mentions that it can't account for all the variation, and there's a lot of factors that they didn't have data on that could be important in figuring it out, as well as whether the variation in rates of active treatment resulted from differences in understanding of possible outcomes or from varying perspectives regarding the value of survival as compared with the high risk of impairment when treatment was done.

    These things are a lot more complicated than just aggregating and cherrypicking sections of studies and putting them on your anti-abortion page

    For stuff that was actually peer reviewed, here's a review of the evidence that was published in 2005 by the Journal of the American Medical Association
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/201429#

    A 2010 report from the UK's Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists that had similar findings
    https://www.rcog.org.uk/globalassets/documents/guidelines/rcogfetalawarenesswpr0610.pdf

    And a 2015 speech transcript published on the website of the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists speaks about the topic
    https://www.acog.org/-/media/Departments/Government-Relations-and-Outreach/2015051320weekLawrenceRemarks.pdf?dmc=1&ts=20180204T0243101019

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
    I did also find other sources that supported your claims (unlinked because I'm sure you've read them).
    Nowhere did I see that "almost all doctors reject the baseless '20 weeks before you can feel pain' claim", leading me to think this seems to be quite a grey area.
    I find this kind of weird since you can just google the pain claim and you'll be bombared with articles talking about why it's a myth or founded on shaky science, but i guess it's nice you read things outside of your position on the issue?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
    Also, as for women being a "prison for a dying fetus"; if someone has a high chance of death, perhaps even certain, should we kill them now so it's over?
    I mean if your response to such a psychologically and physically horrifying situation as "My pregnancy is unviable but i legally can't end it so i have to keep this fetus inside of me until it dies" is to go into whataboutisms for situations superficially similar, maybe you should take a step back and think about why your first instinct was to jump to that rather than try to understand the situation presented
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